I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

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JimT
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I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

Post by JimT »

On the range with my Linebaugh-built .45 Colt Ruger. Shooting 800/900 fps loads. On the 3rd target I shot the 4th shot went "pop" instead of "BAM!" And the bullet hit to one side of where my group was going. And it keyholed. Yep. .44 Special in the .45 Colt. Not sure how it got mixed up in there but hey, if I am gonna copy someone I would just as soon it be Scott. :oops:
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The two loads I was using hit pretty much the same place at 20 yards.
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The old gun has been going for many years now but will still do it IF I can!

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2ndovc
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Re: I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

Post by 2ndovc »

Darned good shooting even with the sideways .44. If you're shooting that well off hand, I'm really impressed! :D

jb 8)
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JimT
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Re: I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

Post by JimT »

2ndovc wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 12:55 pm Darned good shooting even with the sideways .44. If you're shooting that well off hand, I'm really impressed! :D
jb 8)
I would be also. No sir .. I shot these resting the pistol. Since I am past the middle 70's I just cannot shoot offhand like I used to. I can put a couple where they should be but groups at 20 yards would be larger than these, believe me. The gun is capable of it. I am not anymore. Even shooting using a pistol rest at about the 4th shot the sights start growing fuzz. -sigh-
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Re: I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

Post by Sarge »

When my sights get fuzzy, I close one eye. If that don't work, I close the other one too.

Fine shooting Jim.
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Re: I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

Post by GunnyMack »

Question is, who are you going to get to make dies for your new cartridge?

I've shot 9mm out of my 40 , the brass is no longer usable...
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2ndovc
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Re: I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

Post by 2ndovc »

GunnyMack wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 2:17 pm Question is, who are you going to get to make dies for your new cartridge?

I've shot 9mm out of my 40 , the brass is no longer usable...
That's not how you make .357 Sig brass! :D :D

jb 8)
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Re: I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

Post by JimT »

GunnyMack wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 2:17 pm Question is, who are you going to get to make dies for your new cartridge?
I think I can resize it to .44 Special. It may be a tad long but I can trim it. :D
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Re: I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

Post by Nath »

Sarge wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 1:48 pm When my sights get fuzzy, I close one eye. If that don't work, I close the other one too.

Fine shooting Jim.
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Re: I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

Post by AJMD429 »

.
I wonder how do you calculate the 'meplat' of a sideways bullet....
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Re: I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

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GunnyMack wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 2:17 pm Question is, who are you going to get to make dies for your new cartridge?

I've shot 9mm out of my 40 , the brass is no longer usable...
I saw somebody do that and helped them clear it. I wonder if you can turn a 9 into a 10. :mrgreen: NOT about to try that myself! :?
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Scott Tschirhart
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Re: I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

This is the least embarrassing thing I am known for!

And if you think about it, I'm in good company.
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Re: I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

Post by 44shooter »

Nice inverse bottleneck fire form. Would work great for reduced powder loads in a front loading cylinder!

I think a 308 in a 270 or 25-06 would be much worse. I have an old 44 DA first model, 44 Russian of course. The cylinder will easily hold even 300 grain 44 mag! Scary
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Re: I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

Post by JimT »

OK ... here is how I resized the .44 Special fired in the .45 Colt this morning:

1 - lightly lubed the case and then ran it into the .44 Special Seat/Crimp die ... far enough to start rolling the crimp in sliightly. This reduced the overall diameter a little where it was blown out to .45 and this allowed the case to start into the sizing/depriming die without crushing or buckling it
2 - ran it into the size/deprime die with no issues
3 - checked the overall length against new unloaded brass. OAL is fine and will not need trimmed
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Re: I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

Post by Griff »

I've fired a .44-40 out of my 45 Colt on more than one occasion. But... a continuing problem seems to be a 45ACP will hijack it's way into a clean bucket of C45S... and end up on the shell plate of the Dillon just as I seem to get a good rhythm going... the 45 Colt shellplate just doesn't have quite enough grip to pull a 45ACP out of a carbide 45 Colt sizing die! :mrgreen:
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Re: I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

Post by Bill in Oregon »

I find cases like that one fairly regularly at our shooting range, Jim. Also, .270 fired in an '06, etc ... :lol:
It's the separated case heads with dead-flat primers and shiny extractor marks that worry me.
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Re: I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

Post by JimT »

Bill in Oregon wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:35 am I find cases like that one fairly regularly at our shooting range, Jim. Also, .270 fired in an '06, etc ... :lol:
It's the separated case heads with dead-flat primers and shiny extractor marks that worry me.
I found this one in a batch of once-fired 9mm's that I got. Note the case on the right. Someone came real close.
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Re: I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

Post by CowboyTutt »

Yikes! :o :shock:

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Re: I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

Post by Alan Wood »

Yikes indeed. Wonder was that just a massive over load or a 9mm chambered in the wrong firearm.
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Re: I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

Post by Ysabel Kid »

Now I need to run out and join the club. What great company!!!
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Re: I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

Post by JimT »

Alan Wood wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 6:52 pm Yikes indeed. Wonder was that just a massive over load or a 9mm chambered in the wrong firearm.
It was an over-pressure load. The case bulged where it is unsupported in the chamber. If it was in a larger chamber it would not have fired as it would have slipped too far in for the firing pin to reach the primer. Also, the headstamp on the brass is almost gone due to the high pressures exerted as the cartridge set back.

Edit - PS: you can see how the primer flowed into the firing pin hole also.
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Re: I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

Post by piller »

NO pictures. I got some Houston Cartridge Company 9mm at a gun show once. I found out that Kahr pistols are designed to come apart at certain points so that they do not blow up. Those gun show loads were severely overloaded. The brass was in ribbons. Being the type to sometimes need to see it again, I single loaded one in my Ruger P85. The recoil was stronger than it should have been. No damage to the Ruger, but the brass was only a case head and some small pieces left. I put them away and pulled them all when I got home. I put the powder in a line and sat it off with a long fireplace match. It flashed about as I expected.
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Re: I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

Post by CowboyTutt »

JimT wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:26 pm
Alan Wood wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 6:52 pm Yikes indeed. Wonder was that just a massive over load or a 9mm chambered in the wrong firearm.
It was an over-pressure load. The case bulged where it is unsupported in the chamber. If it was in a larger chamber it would not have fired as it would have slipped too far in for the firing pin to reach the primer. Also, the headstamp on the brass is almost gone due to the high pressures exerted as the cartridge set back.

Edit - PS: you can see how the primer flowed into the firing pin hole also.
Jim, you nailed it. The primer alone told the story to me, but your correct about your other observations. I'm speculating a double charge of a fast burning pistol powder. Holy Sacred Cow! -Tutt
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Re: I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

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In small high loading density cases like the 9mm it does not take a double charge to do that. In fact, there is no room for a double charge. A standard load fills most of the case as it is. For instance:

124 gr. Gold Dot
Starting load 4.0 gr. Bullseye
Max load 4.4 gr. Bullseye
OAL 1.120"

Looking at the powder charge in the case with 4.0 gr. of Bullseye, it is quite close to the top of the case. And you cannot see the difference between the Starting Load and the Max Load.
If you are loading the Max load but you seat the bullet deeper, you have just increased the pressures. It doesn't take much more seating depth for things to get critical.
Sometimes what happens is when those who carry concealed load their pistol they pull the slide and load a cartridge from the magazine .. which is the way to do it .. BUT .. if you do it over and over with the same cartridge, quite often it will drive the bullet back into the case. I have seen bullets shoved quite deeply, especially in 9mm and .380's ... though the .45 ACP will do it also. It is easy to get into dangerous pressures that way.

EDIT: SAAMI has set 35,000 psi as the maximum pressure for standard 9mm loads. The 9mm +P has a SAAMI pressure ceiling of 38,500 psi.
The 9mm NATO is close to a +P load over the standard 9mm Luger with a maximum pressure is 36,500 psi.
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Re: I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

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It's still amazing to me how sensitive these small cases with small loads of fast burning pistol powder can be Jim! Had some experience with a RCBS Digital Powder Charger that went crazy. I was loading 454 Casull rounds with it, using Lil'Gun I think. It already filled the case. Well, there came a point where the bullet would not seat after the charge, and I went back and measured the powder load, and they were all over the place! In a 454 Casull!!! The closer you get to "max pressure" the more accurate your powder drop has to be!!! Double charges happen all the time, but your correct as always and it may only be a small, incremental increase in a fast burning pistol powder that causes your gun to explode! -Tutt
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Re: I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

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:D Well I appreciate the comment but I ain't always correct. Long ways from it. I don't know how many times I have answered a technical question about something or other and then found out I was reading the wrong page! :lol:

When I started loading 9mm years ago I started with 115 gr. bullets and 5 gr. of Unique. The first cases I dropped the powder charge in freaked me out! I got my books out and re-read the charges. Reweighed the powder charges several times. I mean, it looked like there was not gonna be room to seat the bullet ... but I was used to .45 Colts and the massive amount of room they have.

Even to this day when I mess with 9mm or 380 I am pretty durn cautious. A couple tenths of a grain can make the difference between a maximum load and an overload.

But no. I ain't always correct.
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Re: I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

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This is one of the few places where I have seen people honestly tell on their mistakes. I have only been reloading for about 20 years. I have caught myself making mistakes. So far, all but one were caught before the bullet was seated. It happens. I overladed some 30-06 rounds, and opening the bolt on that Rem 700 was hard. The primer was very flat. No damage was apparent, and that was the only round of that batch fired. The case did not split. I was lucky that time. I think that round was a warning that I had gone over the safety margin and was looking at disaster if I took another shot of that batch.
Just my experience, but we will all make an error in reloading sometime. Might be equipment related, might be simply getting distracted for one second at a critical spot. Being cautious and checking things over each 5 or 10 rounds might take extra time, but it might save a finger or an eye.
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Re: I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

Post by CowboyTutt »

I have moved away from using my Dillon 550 B (need to upgrade it t a "C" or sell it). When your messing around with a max load of 454 Casull, there is no margin for powder drop error. If your using a mechanical powder drop, you need to measure the variants in drop weight, and back down so you don't "over pressure" the case to compensate for powder drop variances. My typical "max load" in the 454 Casull is 31 grains of Lil'Gun under a Hornady 300 XTP Mag bullet with preferably a CCI BR-4 primer, but sadly I have very few of those left now. And changing the primer potentially changes everything. If your mechanical powder dropper has a variance of even one grain, you need to back off to a 30 grain load, and I typically use a 29 grain load of LIl'Gun for my 454 "plinking" loads. I'm looking forward to some new 454 Casull loads with Alliant 300MP. I have ZERO experience with the 9mm, some experience with the 10mm however, which I find to be mucho superior IMHO to the 9. Jim, it's great to have you back here. Missed you while you were in your adopted home of Africa and terribly sorry I just barely missed you in Missouri years ago on my trip to Kansas where my Volvo broke down. You do offer a lot of wealth of experience that few have and I really appreciate having you back here at Leverguns and our other private discussions. -Andy
Last edited by CowboyTutt on Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Scott Tschirhart
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Re: I pulled a Tschirhart this morning!

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Tutt,

I think you are correct. I load almost everything on my old Dillon 550. BUT I do not load maximum loads (though I do load the .357 according to the way it used to be loaded before they dropped the official spec pressure). I think I have a good margin for error on this cartridge and H110/296 is pretty predictable.

But my everyday loads tend to be more pedestrian.
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