Down in Uvalde

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Scott Tschirhart
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Down in Uvalde

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

I took baked goods to the Sheriff’s Departments in Medina, Uvalde and Kinney Counties as well as Uvalde Police Department. The press were everywhere trying to stick a microphone in front of anyone who would talk. Like a circus of vultures.

Remember that we have good folks trying to do a good job. There’s a lot of finger pointing going on. Some may be justified and some is just bull stuff.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Good folks.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by JimT »

Dang Scott! That ole boy in the first photo must be 7 foot! He make you look short!
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Good on you, Scott. There will plenty of time for after-action analysis of the LEO response.
For now it is time to grieve, to put a hand on a shoulder, and to pray.
I thought the BBC reporters did a nice job this morning:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61611925
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by bmtshooter »

Good on you. Randy Brown is a pretty tall guy isn't he?
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by 2ndovc »

Darned nice thing to do! I'm sure they appreciated the support.

jb 8)
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by AJMD429 »

.
Now they are saying a teacher went outside and left the door propped open then forgot to re-close it....

I can't imagine the guilt feelings and second guessing all involved must be going through.

Regardless of who failed to do what, the REAL problem still goes back to:

the Murderer himself who chose to kill innocents,
the Democrat policies that destroyed families to create murderers,
the Democrat policies that impair self defense when it happens.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by Ray Newman »

"Remember that we have good folks trying to do a good job. There’s a lot of finger pointing going on. Some may be justified and some is just bull stuff."
--Scott T.

BINGO!
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by 44shooter »

So which is which? It certainly doesn’t look like they tried to do a good job. It’s looks like they behaved the opposite of basic active shooter doctrine. That is go until this evildoer’s brains are sprayed on the bulletin boards. “Barricade” :roll:
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by Bill in Oregon »

44: Plenty of time for that discussion. Just trying to respect the original poster's gesture of kindness in a time of horror, not just for the victims, but for the responders. I would hate to be in anyone's shoes in Uvalde just now.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

bmtshooter wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 7:44 am
Good on you. Randy Brown is a pretty tall guy isn't he?
Randy likes to tell stories about when he and I were deputies together….back in the old days. He's one of my best and oldest friends and I'm really proud to serve him and the department he molded into what it is today.
Last edited by Scott Tschirhart on Sat May 28, 2022 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by Blaine »

I have no doubt that the Rank & File LEOs would have selflessly done their duty, but the Decision Makers screwed the pooch.
God Bless the Border Patrol agents that ignored the Decision Makers and charged in to hellfire.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

44shooter wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 11:19 am
So which is which? It certainly doesn’t look like they tried to do a good job. It’s looks like they behaved the opposite of basic active shooter doctrine. That is go until this evildoer’s brains are sprayed on the bulletin boards. “Barricade” :roll:
None of the Sheriffs or the Deputies in these photographs were on the scene.

You are painting with a pretty broad brush and I understand that there were folks on the scene who wanted to do exactly as you suggest.

I've been through the training and since Sandy Hook the proceedure has been to charge in and try to neutralize the bad guy as soon as possible in the hopes of saving innocent lives. BUT, they also tell you in this training that you are likely to get killed doing this.

I don't personally know any of the guys who were on the scene during the shooting. But I can tell you that several of the people in the photographs I shared would have traded their lives for any innocent....I've seen what these men are made of.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

JimT wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 6:46 am
Dang Scott! That ole boy in the first photo must be 7 foot! He make you look short!
That's Medina County Sheriff Randy Brown. He was a young deputy when his uncle Bob Brown and I were chasing dopers down on the river. Bob was a big old guy too. You never had to worry about whether Bob was there to guard your backside, he was there. Randy is cut of the same cloth. I'd trust him with anything.

My other partner is in the ground now. I trusted him without question for the years that he had my back. He never let me down.

I wish there were more men like these....
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by AJMD429 »

.
A patient of mine who is on a SWAT team says that when you have to enter a room like that they call it the "funnel of death" because whoever charges into the room will most certainly be shot at and probably hit because the person in the room knows exactly when they will be coming in.

That's why if possible tear gas or flash bang devices are often used, or even grenades in the military setting. I suppose tear gas would have been possible in the school. Not my area of expertise, and I don't know if regular cops even had tear gas there.

However I think anybody having to face the prospect of charging into a room knowing that you were going to be shot, especially if you didn't have at least some decent ballistic protection, has to have an incredible amount of courage, and be willing literally to give their life to protect others.

There are men and women who are like that, and fortunately many find their calling in the military or police. I agree that we should never denigrate those fine people, but that does not mean that we should not learn from after-action reports, and it does not mean that we should not criticize wrong decisions. If there is truly evidence of 'cowardice' as a factor, those individuals do not belong in law enforcement.

The problem is when bureaucrats and administrators and politicians interfere, or if you get too many people serving in law enforcement who don't have that brave and protective ethos. Then bad things happen.

I'll bet many of those parents would have volunteered to be the first one in the funnel of death even without ballistic protection. They were motivated beyond what any fear could counteract, and they understood that the primary goal needed to be first neutralize the killer immediately and then start rendering first aid to survivors, rather than allow them to bleed out over an hour, feeling abandoned, in pain, and frightened.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by Grizz »

Of course there are quality people there, it's Texas!

This situation has NO REASONABLE ANSWERS to any reasonable questions.


.
Prayers UP to Abba Father and Your Son our Savior and Holy Spirit, the breath of Life. We,.. [ I ] lift up everyone who was there in any capacity, for Your healing balm of Gilead, for Your Grace, Mercy, Comfort and Compassion. This agony can only ever be healed by You. Come Holy Spirit . .. †
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by Ysabel Kid »

Scott Tschirhart wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 6:17 am
I took baked goods to the Sheriff’s Departments in Medina, Uvalde and Kinney Counties as well as Uvalde Police Department. The press were everywhere trying to stick a microphone in front of anyone who would talk. Like a circus of vultures.

Remember that we have good folks trying to do a good job. There’s a lot of finger pointing going on. Some may be justified and some is just bull stuff.
Thanks for doing that Scott!
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Re: Down in Uvalde

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AJMD429 wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 9:49 am
.
Now they are saying a teacher went outside and left the door propped open then forgot to re-close it....

I can't imagine the guilt feelings and second guessing all involved must be going through.

Regardless of who failed to do what, the REAL problem still goes back to:

the Murderer himself who chose to kill innocents,
the Democrat policies that destroyed families to create murderers,
the Democrat policies that impair self defense when it happens.
Spot on!
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Re: Down in Uvalde

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I do not doubt there are fine LEOs down there or meant that everyone was at fault for the delay in engagement. I was referring to the remark that some of the finger pointing is justified and some is not. Truth is someone decided to hold them up (ones on scene) against their training. Actually the Border Patrol simply unlocked the door and smoked the villain so the inevitability of being shot and killed does not seem to be true.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by piller »

People need to realize that anything we say now is just armchair quarterbacking.

Beta Bobby O'Rourke sure got called out by that Mayor for his political grandstanding.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

44shooter wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 8:20 pm
I do not doubt there are fine LEOs down there or meant that everyone was at fault for the delay in engagement. I was referring to the remark that some of the finger pointing is justified and some is not. Truth is someone decided to hold them up (ones on scene) against their training. Actually the Border Patrol simply unlocked the door and smoked the villain so the inevitability of being shot and killed does not seem to be true.
I guess you didn’t get the part where the Border Patrol agent WAS shot before he killed this guy.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

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Scott Tschirhart wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 9:24 pm
I guess you didn’t get the part where the Border Patrol agent WAS shot before he killed this guy.
Being the first one in the door is almost a guarantee of getting shot, from what I am told by police officers and military who have been there and done that. He was lucky; the photograph I saw that was supposedly his baseball-cap style hat had a bullet crease and tear right across the top of it. At least the military and a few big-city cops have some rifle-resistant gear, but that mostly stops frontal torso shots; head or pelvis shot or side-torso shots are usually deadly too.

And yes it is all Monday morning quarterbacking, but human nature is to problem solve and to analyze and to try to learn from experience. If possible we try to learn from the experience of other people who know and do things unfamiliar to us. I agree we need to be very cautious about judging others unless we have walked in their shoes, but if it does turn out that people failed to honor one of the more fundamental commitments of their job, as the taxpayers who employ them we need to learn from the experience in Uvalde so that we can make sure those who work in our own localities don't repeat mistakes that get our own children killed.

It seems like if any of the officers we're willing to take that risk, and I am sure many of them were, that their boss should have not held them back, given the fact that there were undoubtedly children bleeding to death all that time, plus the ones he additionally murdered during that interval. Even as just a hillbilly-with-a-gun, if MY kid were in that room, and no cop was willing to be front in the funnel, I'd do it, even if all it accomplished was me becoming a moving sacrificial target to distract the murderer long enough that the other cops could kill him. I think most parents feel that way, and I'm betting as parents themselves many of those cops wanted to proceed not wait. I guess we will find out.

It may turn out that the most singular contribution other than the murderer himself will turn out to be whoever left that door unlocked (...perhaps even 'propped open' according to some reports). I actually feel sorry for that person, because I'm sure they know who they are, and I would not be surprised if they take their own life rather that live forever with that guilt. Such a basic and simple mistake, and I doubt there are any of us who haven't accidentally left a door unlocked. Twice in 30 years I have come home to realize that either myself or my wife left the door to our house unlocked and in one case actually standing open. With over 300 lb of rather unsociable dogs in our fenced in yard, and a neighbor who is always home and who's house is within full view, there was still little risk, but people do make mistakes.

I also wish that one of the teachers or custodians or administrative staff had been carrying a handgun on their person and knew how to use it. 5 to 10% of the population already does that, and it's a travesty that we allow people to work in schools without requiring that basic skill set. Such individuals aren't going to be able to heroically clear buildings, or be long range snipers, but at least they have a chance of putting lead between the eyes if a deranged killer enters their classroom. Like me, not being law enforcement professionals, they probably would be just as chicken to form a "death funnel" and burst into a barricaded room as I would, but their situation is different; they are already IN the thick of things because the killer is coming to them, not the other way around. At that point it's not a question of bravery it's just a question of hoping you can stop them before they hurt more innocent people. Unfortunately, because of our 'political correctness' most places won't even give school employees that chance; that's like forcing someone to go into a death funnel without body armor or a weapon.

Those who prohibit school employees from being armed are basically accomplices to murder. :evil: :evil: :evil:
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Re: Down in Uvalde

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Any critique about anything that has ever happened can be called armchair quarterbacking. Does that mean everyone gets a pass because they were the only ones there?

I’m sure we will know more details as the investigation goes on and it will become more clear what was communicated and what people knew at the time. Right now they are getting it from the left, right and center. I’m sure the police union will defend them though.

No I wasn’t aware of any law enforcement injuries. Still haven’t read that. Either way, he did what he was supposed to do and others did not.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

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I found an article that reports the heroic Border Patrol agent got a scalp wound. So I stand corrected as he was shot. he could have said not my jurisdiction, unlike the cops waiting for him in the hall.

I never said getting shot wasn’t a danger but armed and armored officers hanging back while children are dying in a room with their killer doesn’t sit right with me. I don’t see how it can be justified. From what I understand a lone SRO is supposed to run towards gunfire and search until the shooter is dead. I wouldn’t be able to look at myself let alone face the public if I did that.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

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44shooter wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 10:54 pm
Any critique about anything that has ever happened can be called armchair quarterbacking. Does that mean everyone gets a pass because they were the only ones there?

I’m sure we will know more details as the investigation goes on and it will become more clear what was communicated and what people knew at the time. Right now they are getting it from the left, right and center. I’m sure the police union will defend them though.

No I wasn’t aware of any law enforcement injuries. Still haven’t read that. Either way, he did what he was supposed to do and others did not.
We are hearing more as time passes. I was just trying to point out that we were not the ones on the ground there, and without all the information, our ideas right now might not be the best. Give it a couple of days for it to all come out.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

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44shooter wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 11:09 pm
I found an article that reports the heroic Border Patrol agent got a scalp wound. So I stand corrected as he was shot. he could have said not my jurisdiction, unlike the cops waiting for him in the hall.

I never said getting shot wasn’t a danger but armed and armored officers hanging back while children are dying in a room with their killer doesn’t sit right with me. I don’t see how it can be justified. From what I understand a lone SRO is supposed to run towards gunfire and search until the shooter is dead. I wouldn’t be able to look at myself let alone face the public if I did that.
It all depends on what side of the fence you're sitting on. If you want an excuse to ban firearms, then it's justified. If on the other hand you don't, then it isn't.
Me? I'm with you, those cops that just stood outside twiddling their thumbs are nothing more than cowards and should turn their tan uniforms in for yellow ones! UNLESS the perp was shot out in the parking lot BEFORE he could get inside and the cops wouldn't let parents in 'cause the school was on lock-down!
Sounds to me like they were doing another Sandy Hook false flag! Either way, those kids were murdered, either by the shooter or by gov't! Maybe both?
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Re: Down in Uvalde

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I have been there/ done that and feel like I need to Put in my 2 cents worth. Most folks don't know or understand that the response to an active shooter is pretty much opposite from the response to a barricaded gunman/ hostage situation and you have to be prepared to transition from one to the other at any time. The training teaches us that if the shooting stops he m MAY no longer be considered an active shooter- it's a very dynamic situation and you MAY need to change your response. Bottom line? Someone has to make the decision! It's my belief that "once an active shooter- always an active shooter' because he can start back up at any time. They need to be taken out ASAP. I always had the motivation because I consider those children/ innocent victims MY loved ones and I will do whatever it takes to protect them. Thanks for listening. Jim
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Re: Down in Uvalde

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44shooter wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 11:09 pm
I found an article that reports the heroic Border Patrol agent got a scalp wound. So I stand corrected as he was shot. he could have said not my jurisdiction, unlike the cops waiting for him in the hall.

I never said getting shot wasn’t a danger but armed and armored officers hanging back while children are dying in a room with their killer doesn’t sit right with me. I don’t see how it can be justified. From what I understand a lone SRO is supposed to run towards gunfire and search until the shooter is dead. I wouldn’t be able to look at myself let alone face the public if I did that.
The report I read showed a stapled scalp wound on the BP agent, and said he also was shot in the leg, but was able to drop the bad guy at the same time he took hits. It stated three BP agents went in together, and one had a shield to help deflect possible fire. Other two were not hit.

A huge number of major police agencies changed their training after the Columbine school shooting, and began training their police forces to get inside as quickly as possible in situations like this. Our local and state training officers have been on the news since this shooting, and were asked if they trained officers to react differently in this type of scenario. All stated they do indeed have a different approach and set of rules that allow officers to respond faster in the case of school takeovers by armed assailants.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

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Good on ya Scott!
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Follow up that you may not see on national news.

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/06/09 ... interview/
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Re: Down in Uvalde

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Scott Tschirhart wrote:
Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:53 am
Follow up that you may not see on national news.

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/06/09 ... interview/
Thanks Scott.
Brings to mind Mark Twain's comment that "If you don't read the news you are uninformed. If you read the news you are misinformed."
It will take quite a long time to sort everything out.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

JimT wrote:
Fri Jun 10, 2022 10:11 am
Scott Tschirhart wrote:
Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:53 am
Follow up that you may not see on national news.

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/06/09 ... interview/
Thanks Scott.
Brings to mind Mark Twain's comment that "If you don't read the news you are uninformed. If you read the news you are misinformed."
It will take quite a long time to sort everything out.
Some of the things he did made no sense, like leaving the radio behind. Other things, like holding his position and getting other kids and teachers out make perfect sense.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by marlinman93 »

I'm still not commenting until I read some report from a reliable source that details how this was handled, and why choices were made. A lot of finger pointing is going on now, and everyone is looking to blame somebody.
I'm just not certain we'll ever see an accurate, reliable report.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by Ray Newman »

"A lot of finger pointing is going on now, and everyone is looking to blame somebody. I'm just not certain we'll ever see an accurate, reliable report."
--MarlinMan

Spot on.I keep think of the old saw: "A lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth comes out"....
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by AJMD429 »

.
It is looking like that there was some lying going on.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/0 ... hed-video/

If true this is going to really tarnish law enforcement, unfortunately including the many brave and honorable and truly heroic ones... :|
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by piller »

I had a sneaky suspicion that more information would be coming out.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by 44shooter »

Yes, it makes the response look even worse
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by 1894cfan »

I got one word for those law enforcement people...COWARDS! As far as I'm concerned, they are in the same league as the shooter! :twisted:
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by marlinman93 »

Disgusting response by officers.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by AJMD429 »

.
The fact that the door was not locked is pretty condemning.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by marlinman93 »

AJMD429 wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:09 am
.
The fact that the door was not locked is pretty condemning.
Yes, and the fact they didn't even try the door to see if it was locked.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by marlinman93 »

The Texas Department of Public Safety has not pulled any punches with their comments about Chief Arredondo's lack of action in this tragedy. Colonel McCraw, director of Texas Public Safety stated the Chief made "terrible decisions" and made excuses stating he thought someone else had taken charge, when in fact he was in charge, but refused to give the orders to go in with approximately a dozen officers in the hallway waiting for the order.

https://katu.com/news/nation-world/uval ... o-new-york
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Re: Down in Uvalde

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I know I called for everyone to hold off of the Monday Morning Quarterbacking, but now the information is out. Chief Arredondo made bad decisions which led to more deaths. The Texas Department of Public Safety is not known for throwing people under the bus, but they do call it correctly when it is necessary. For the DPS to say it how they did, it was a badly mismanaged situation. I am guessing that several of those Cops were aware of how much Chief Arredondo would have gone after their lives and families to ruin them if they had gone against his orders. Now the rest will come out.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Just to clarify. Arredondo was the Uvalde School District Chief of Police. However, he had also been recently elected to the Uvalde City Council. He resigned from the City Council today.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

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The regular City Police Department had to listen to him because it happened on school property. I would be shocked if any of the Uvalde Cops were holding off from fear. They are trained to only provide backup to the school Police.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by AJMD429 »

.
"...Too often people who play politics are promoted instead of people who are capable of doing the job correctly..."

THIS is so often the big problem, in both corporate and political worlds... :|
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by 44shooter »

From what I have seen, there were conversations among officers that they should go in but we’re awaiting orders. I don’t understand why the school chief, or whatever he is supposed to be, did not see himself or assert himself as incident commander. I’m not sure I even believe him. I haven’t seen anything come out to mitigate my initial assessment of police response. Reports that the door was unlocked while the chief says he had to wait for keys is particularly troubling.

Whether we were there or not, Whether there was high risk of being shot, armed and armored sworn duty law enforcement officers waited 77 minutes outside an unlocked room with a homicidal shooter and gravely wounded and undefended nine year old children inside.

Widely known Active shooter doctrine is to immediately find, engage, and neutralize the shooter. This is for any police responding whether it’s a lone SRO or whatever. It is their job! These officers are reported to have had the training and like I said it is widely known to the public. No the proper response is not to hold their position while getting other kids out. It’s to confront the killer and shoot him til he doesn’t move any more.

As for the chief, I don’t know how he got his job or how good of a cop he has been. But he definitely messed this up. I don’t know how he can look at himself in the mirror, much less stay in his position and take a city council oath right after. Disgraceful
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by AJMD429 »

.
It looks like at this point there's really no way to redeem the actions of the officers involved.

I know as conservatives we're supposed to be pro law enforcement, but I can't help but be reminded of all the police I've met in big cities who condescendingly think they are allowed to decide whether or not a citizen should own a particular kind of semi-automatic rifle or magazine of a given capacity or what kind of handgun a non-criminal can carry on their person. Absolutely NONE of those things are the business of any law enforcement officer at any level in the United states. Yet I'll bet that many of these same cops who are derelict in their own duties are of that arrogant mindset.

During that hour or more of time delay they wasted while children lay bleeding to death, alone, and frightened, and probably more being shot, you could take the average third grade child and teach them how to shoot an AR-15 and send them into that room and they would have had a likelier chance of neutralizing that murderer than those cops did.

:evil:
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Re: Down in Uvalde

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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by Grizz »

it is heartbreaking on so many levels. Help we LORD. We need Your help.


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