Down in Uvalde

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JimT
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by JimT »

Scott Tschirhart wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 7:31 am
https://youtu.be/VsMv0NmToVo
Thanks Brother ... THAT was horrible to watch. I won't say more. You know where I stand on stuff like this.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

JimT wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 9:20 am
Scott Tschirhart wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 7:31 am
https://youtu.be/VsMv0NmToVo
Thanks Brother ... THAT was horrible to watch. I won't say more. You know where I stand on stuff like this.
I'm in the same boat my friend.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

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Scott Tschirhart wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 7:31 am
https://youtu.be/VsMv0NmToVo
Wow...thanks for sharing that analysis by someone who's BTDT, and did you notice how he said "how did that unemployed kid get all the money for that gear?" Makes you wonder....

...also I read on another forum that he went straight to "the door with the lock that didn't work".... I don't know if that was the only door that didn't have a working lock, or if they all were unlocked, but if that was the ONLY one not locked, that would be creepy, especially given that he allegedly talked to an FBI agent shortly before the attack.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

https://youtu.be/G1Pv5LAU8sM

I cannot criticize this particular officer who was checking his phone. His wife contacted him as she was a teacher who had been shot and was not going to survive.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by marlinman93 »

The video segments were painful and frustrating to watch. I kept thinking there's got to be one man out of them that will take the lead and do the right thing.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

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Scott Tschirhart wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:43 pm
https://youtu.be/G1Pv5LAU8sM

I cannot criticize this particular officer who was checking his phone. His wife contacted him as she was a teacher who had been shot and was not going to survive.
Agreed. I see my employees checking their phones, but sometimes it's a true home emergency, and other times it is actually something for patients that they have to do online that they can do faster with their phone than they can our computers.

I'm surprised that given the situation that guy didn't say to heck with the orders I'm going to go in that room and try to save my wife and or kill the bad guy, but then I'm sure there were a lot of other considerations tactically and emotionally.

I don't think I would be very "tactical" in a situation where my own family or even other innocent children were involved. I would probably charge in guns blazing without much consideration for my own safety. Either I would die trying or the bad guy would die, or perhaps both.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

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He was intent on killing, and he showed that. My training was to go in fast and low while putting as many rounds toward the bad guy as possible. I wouldn't mind still having access to an M60 and a couple of belts of 7.62 NATO in a case like that. At 23 pounds, the M60 was a pig, but it was controllable and accurate. It was the teeth of the platoon at the time.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by AJMD429 »

.
Not even sure if anyone could be legally fired over the issue(s), and from this article, other legal consequences seem slim.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/13/us/uvald ... index.html
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by marlinman93 »

AJMD429 wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 6:52 am
.
Not even sure if anyone could be legally fired over the issue(s), and from this article, other legal consequences seem slim.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/13/us/uvald ... index.html
Maybe not fired; just horse whipped.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

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This is a State where people tend to be up front and not very willing to accept such behavior. That School District Chief of Police might want to leave the State. I would not be willing to bet on his remaining healthy for long.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

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Every single officer there is a gold-plated coward. The same is true of anyone in line of their command structure all the way to the top.

Every single officer knew there were children dying. There is absolutely zero excuse for such inaction, such irresponsibility. Zero.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by AJMD429 »

.
Just thinking about this....

I wonder how much time that could have been spent training for a school-shooter was WASTED making those officers get 'cultural sensitivity' training....

More video and analysis. https://youtu.be/NGOkxsq3piI

You can hear the shooting in this video and you can hear him pause to reload. It is just sickening. Anyone opposing armed teachers after listening to this must be insane....just look at the video at 45 minutes in... :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
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Re: Down in Uvalde

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Since this took place and more info and the videos have been revealed, I keep wondering one question. How do the guys in this situation go home and face their families, and not be ashamed about their lack of response? How do they explain their lack of response to those closest to them? They're going to have to live with it the rest of their miserable lives, and I hope they think about it every day.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

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It is hard to believe that one of those policemen wouldn't have gone "Animal Mother" and looked back at his buddies and the police chief and said, "To heck with all of you". Or what Animal Mother said. And went in on his own. Especially if your wife a teacher had been shot.

Bob
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Re: Down in Uvalde

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marlinman93 wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:17 am
. . . How do the guys in this situation go home and face their families, and not be ashamed about their lack of response? How do they explain their lack of response to those closest to them?
It evidently isn't that difficult to have moral and intellectual cognitive dissonance; Democrats have to do it every day with pretty most facets of their lives - economic, political, and moral, because the fantasy-world they live in just doesn't jive with things like facts and science and history, and political and economic realities. Those of us who are 'conservatives' (aka 'deplorables') tend to live our lives more coherently, where our moral foundation is aligned with reality, so we don't have to deal with cognitive dissonance very often, so it seems difficult to us.

But since often as not, the street-level police officers tend to be politically conservative, I'm sure some of them ARE suffering cognitive dissonance as a result of their inaction. The 'liberal' ones won't feel a thing, because they won't admit there was a problem other than it was someone else's fault, or blame 'assault weapons' or whatever... :roll:
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by JOG »

Cowardice is not a good trait in their chosen profession!
Fire the lot of them!
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by OldWin »

JOG wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:55 pm
Cowardice is not a good trait in their chosen profession!
Fire the lot of them!
But remember.....
These are also the kind of people who will have no problem brutalizing and killing an unarmed population. Seeing these types in positions of authority is not a coincidence.
Be nice.....it's more important than truth.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by Ysabel Kid »

From the Patriot Post yesterday. I think this is well-balanced.

America's Contract With Our Police
If we expect police to have our backs, we need to have theirs.
Jack DeVine

The senseless slaughter of 21 innocents by a deranged shooter in a Uvalde, Texas, schoolroom remains incomprehensibly awful. The July 17 comprehensive report by the Texas House of Representatives sheds light — and more pain — on that terrible day. In particular, it presents in no uncertain terms the epic failure of responding law enforcement to quickly neutralize the shooter and stop the carnage.

The House report is thorough, factual, and even-handed. In all respects, it reads like a search for understanding, not blame. It identifies numerous factors that left the door open (literally) to the predator and then provides a minute-by-minute chronology of events from the moment he entered Robb Elementary School.
It reveals the shocking fact that although 376 armed and trained federal, state, and local law enforcement officers gathered at the school, they inexplicably took no action to confront the shooter for 73 long minutes after the initial shots were fired. In that time, wounded children bled and died.

As expected, public condemnation has been swift and uncompromising. Heads are rolling. Careers and reputations are ruined. Infinitely worse, there is the renewed and irreconcilable anguish of parents who now realize that their child might have been saved, and the lifelong burden of guilt carried by those who failed to save them.

The report characterizes the response failures as systemic and the decision-making as egregiously poor. It acknowledges the bewildering absence of initiative and proactive leadership, and it lists a litany of training deficiencies, tactical misjudgments, and procedural non-compliances.

The Texas House report's criticisms are all valid and all are important. But for all of its specificity, it provokes the single most important question: Why? How is it possible that in that hour of evident, ongoing crisis — with an active shooter in a school room, and known casualties, and frantic 911 calls from terrified children — armed and trained officers stood by impotently? Did they simply lack the courage to act? Were they frozen by fear?

No. Of course, there was uncertainty and fear, but it stands to reason that their paralytic indecision was due at least in part to their innate recognition that a wrong decision would affect their lives in ways perhaps more lasting than a predator's bullets.

Consider the implicit contract now in place between Americans and law enforcement. We expect our police officers to put themselves in harm's way, without hesitation, whenever duty calls. We expect them to make split-second decisions, and we know that in such pressure-packed circumstances mistakes or misjudgments are possible and success is never assured. Nevertheless, we've also made it crystal clear that if the outcome is bad, we will hang them out to dry.
Worse, they know that their actions will be judged by people under no pressure and with all the time in the world, with perfect 20/20 hindsight.

Remember Kim Potter, the Minneapolis police officer with a 20-year spotless record who in one perilous instant mistakenly drew and fired her service weapon instead of her taser? Hers was a tragic mistake, irreversible and heart-wrenching — but in a courtroom months later, the prosecuting attorney convinced a jury that such very human mistakes cannot be tolerated.

Potter now languishes in jail, while her righteous prosecutor has presumably returned to her protected and comfortable personal life.

Now imagine for a minute that the first officers on the scene at Robb Elementary had burst through that classroom door and the trapped shooter reacted by opening fire on the cowering children. Had that happened, the recriminations would surely have followed: Those reckless cowboys came in guns blazing, and now our kids are dead.

We have no idea if that scenario crossed the minds of the officers stalled outside the horror-filled classroom. But the hard reality of routinely unreasonable, uncompromising deprecation of police in the post-Ferguson and post-George Floyd era surely influences every police officer's behavior, every day.

Make no mistake: The law enforcement personnel in that Uvalde school failed dismally. But that outcome didn't happen in a vacuum. We, the public at large, must recognize that in our zeal to protect against excessive police violence, we have unwittingly altered our fundamental relationship with those police officers.

It's an untenable arrangement. Law enforcement demands courage and commitment at a level few of us are willing to offer. The newly upended relationship between Americans and our police is prompting their reluctance to engage in potentially volatile situations, it surely contributes to increased crime rates, and in the long term it will discourage qualified and capable men and women from careers in law enforcement.

If we expect police to have our backs, we need to have theirs.
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Thanks for posting that! (nt)

Post by JimT »

.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by AJMD429 »

.
"... irreconcilable anguish of parents who now realize that their child might have been saved . . .

THAT is the saddest part - to think of those frightened children, feeling abandoned, and dying. AWFUL...!

The Patriot Post does point out at least indirectly that the fundamental problem in our society is that we fail to discriminate between good and bad behavior, and expect responsibiliby and consequences. The kid with an 'offensive' T-shirt gets as bad a punishment as the kid who tries to stab the teacher in many cases, and yes, a cop that makes a 'reasonable' mistake can get in more trouble than one who has the jack-boot mindset and wantonly harms innocents.

That has to be fixed.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

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"No. Of course, there was uncertainty and fear, but it stands to reason that their paralytic indecision was due at least in part to their innate recognition that a wrong decision would affect their lives in ways perhaps more lasting than a predator's bullets."

Although I do agree that the decision to go in might have cost some kid's lives, and would be condemned by the parents of the dead kids. I do not agree that's a valid excuse for not entering. Is it somehow better to stand outside listening to kids being shot, and knowing they're inside dying? Is it better to have 21 parents and families suffering the loss of all the kids? I personally think it's tough for any parent to lose their child, but it's tougher for all of them to lose a child, than for some to have lost a child had the acted. Making tough decisions is something they have to do, but delaying those decisions can never be a good option when it comes to children, and shots fired.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by Griff »

I've vacillated between extreme anger and thankfulness since this incident hit the news. Anger at how it unfolded and continues to do so. Anger at the little pelosi that perpetrated the murder of innocents, anger at the officers, and finally anger at the public's reaction. Thankfulness in that that I'm not in law enforcement in this day and age. Law enforcement has almost always been a thankless job, one where a person needs to be able to get their job satisfaction from the knowledge that one has done a good job, & to a lesser degree, the respect of your peers.

I'm not inclined to call any of the officers present cowards. I view it more like a lack by any one individual of the necessary courage to overcome their fear and make a decision that would be "Monday Morning Quarterbacked" to death... not recognizing that the lack of a decision would result in the same. I'm sure that group dynamics played a huge role in the lack of action. I'm willing to bet that if anyone had simply said, "let's get this done", there'd have been too many volunteers to be efficient.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

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Griff wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:44 pm
I'm sure that group dynamics played a huge role in the lack of action. I'm willing to bet that if anyone had simply said, "let's get this done", there'd have been too many volunteers to be efficient.
That pretty much sums it up extremely well for me Griff! And that's the puzzling part for me also. Why wasn't there that one individual early on in this shooting who could step up, and take a leadership role? Had the agents who went in eventually gotten there earlier, we might not be having the same conversation.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

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If one delays in taking the appropriate, dutiful and trained response for fear of public or political criticism, he is more of a coward than one who fears grave injury which is completely natural.

Surely everyone on scene was not a coward. Surely some were willing and wanting to open that door. The lack of on scene leadership and initiative is baffling.

No we don’t have to have every cop’s back when they do something wrong or fail to do something they should. They can be held responsible as any other employee, professional, citizen etc

The only “bull stuff” I’ve seen since this thread started is that the teacher did not prop or unlock the door the shooter used as was initially reported. Apparently the door was always unlocked. All the cop stuff turned out way worse than I initially thought. Disgraceful
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by Streetstar »

Ysabel Kid wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:02 pm


If we expect police to have our backs, we need to have theirs.

On this matter I will respectfully agree to disagree. And I don’t expect the police to have my back- And I’m not even a “criminal “
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Re: Down in Uvalde

Post by samsi »

44shooter wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 5:02 pm

(snip)
Surely everyone on scene was not a coward. Surely some were willing and wanting to open that door. The lack of on scene leadership and initiative is baffling.
(snip)
The lack of leadership isn't baffling from my standpoint. Most bureaucracies/agencies nowadays are under mandate to promote based on checking the correct gender, ethnicity or other desirable trait du jour boxes regardless of other, more realistic qualifications. We end up with managers, not leaders, and many woefully inadequate even at that.
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Re: Down in Uvalde

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marlinman93 wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:10 am
Griff wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:44 pm
I'm sure that group dynamics played a huge role in the lack of action. I'm willing to bet that if anyone had simply said, "let's get this done", there'd have been too many volunteers to be efficient.
That pretty much sums it up extremely well for me Griff! And that's the puzzling part for me also. Why wasn't there that one individual early on in this shooting who could step up, and take a leadership role? Had the agents who went in eventually gotten there earlier, we might not be having the same conversation.
.
Yep..."group dynamics" is a phenomenon that creates all sorts of illogical behaviors. Look at all the studies of things like the "prisoner's dilemma" and risk-reward phenomena as they vary when it is one participant vs several, or whether or not they think they are being observed.

Probably since they are so strong and repeatable they are somehow beneficial to the species, but sometimes they seem horrible. Germany in the 1930's and 40's sure wasn't a good thing, but is a classic example of mob-psychology.
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