Factory ammo verification

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FLINT
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Factory ammo verification

Post by FLINT »

Hi all,

I recently bought a new/old box of factory Winchester 87gr ammo for the 250 savage. not cheap as you can imagine. I'm not sure when the last time Winchester offered this ammo in 87 grain but I don't think it's been for a while - though at the same time this style of ammo box isn't terribly old either - which is why I bought it. (as a side, does anyone know how to date winchester ammo boxes?)

However, I'd like someone to help verify that this is actually factory loaded ammo.

When I received the box of ammo and opened it up to look at it, I was struck at the unusually short OAL of the ammo. The rounds measured only 2.333" in length - however all of the reloading information for this I have lists loaded lengths for the 87 grain bullet to be in the 2.45 - 2.515" range.

I pulled one bullet after an unbelieveable amount of pounding with the bullet puller and the bullet indeed does weigh 87 grains, but the bullets have a cannelure which is located super high up on the bullets so the bullets are seated super low in the cases which are crimped to the cannelure. another strange thing is that there is a lot of variation in seating depth of the bullets - some seated to the top of the cannelure, some to the bottom of it.

I'm just checking to make sure these bullets weren't originally intended for some other round and reloaded into 250 savage cases. There was 31 grains of some kind of very fine powder in the cases. I guess I'm just want to make sure these rounds are factory and safe to shoot. Was a little concerned about how deeply the bullets were seated and that pressure would/could be excessive.

There is some precident for my concern as one time a dozen years ago I bought a box of 32-40 ammo, but it turned out to be reloads that someone made using 32WS jacketed bullets - again seated to the cannelure which in that case made the OAL too long to feed or fire in a 32-40 - so I pulled all of those bullets and just used the brass. Wondering if I need to do the same with this ammo.

Here is a picture of the box, and a comparison of the length of the rounds with my handloads that measure 2.465"

Image

Image

ok, after I typed the above, I looked at the winchester ammo box again and noticed that there is actually very little "extra" room or clearance within the box with the ammo in it. The inside height of the box measures 2.44" and if I put any of my reloads in the red plastic inner box, I have to push/force them into the box.

So.... that would be evidence that this ammo is meant to be this short. It just seems really extra short for 250 savage ammo. And is actually a huge bummer, because I was hoping to use this box to hold my reloads eventually - but I guess that's out now as the box is too short. So strange.

anyone have any experience with factory loaded 250 savage ammo being this short. Probably no one has 87 grain factory ammo around any more as 100 grain is the standard weight now for factory ammo. I'm guessing they would have had to made ammo boxes for the 100 grain ammo taller as I don't think you'd want or be able to seat 100 grain bullets low enough to fit in this box.
elmo123
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Re: Factory ammo verification

Post by elmo123 »

That looks like a factory crimp to me. The older 110 grain 30-06 factory ammo was loaded in a box shorter than the other bullet weights.
1894cfan
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Re: Factory ammo verification

Post by 1894cfan »

One way of telling is if there's ANY kind of bulge in the case body just above the rim, or sizing marks on the case body or neck. HTH
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earlmck
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Re: Factory ammo verification

Post by earlmck »

That sure looks like a factory crimp and it looks like a new case. But I have several of the little Winchester "Ball Powder Loading Data" booklets and they show 36 grains of WW 748 with the 87 grain bullet as their suggested load, which I would have guessed would be balparkish of what they'd use for factory ammo. So I don't know what the heck you'd have with only 31 grains of powder. I know ammo factories can deal with powder that isn't exactly identical to cannister grade powders but I would not have thought they would be using a powder that far from one of their standards. And they also show max COAL of 2.515".

So scratching my head here. Looking at "QuickLoad" the next faster powder than 748 is WW296. QL thinks 26 grains of 296 would keep within pressure limits and give velocities just a bit less than 3000 fps, while the 748 gives a bit over 3000 fps. So it seems quite possible that the factory could have used a run of ball powder that came in between 296 and 748 in burning rate but gave normal 87 grain velocities while keeping within pressure specs. Both 748 and 296 are fine grain ball powders with 296 being a little finer if you have them side by side.

I "think" it might be factory ammo. How does it shoot?
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is he who heals the most gullies.
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FLINT
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Re: Factory ammo verification

Post by FLINT »

Thanks earlmck!

is it possible that they used 31 grains of 748 instead of 36 because the COAL was only 2.3" instead of 2.5" ? Seating those bullets all the way down to the top of the canelure does put the bullet way down into the case.

Here's a image of the powder taking through the lense of a 10x dissecting microscope. thought I know there isn't anything for scale.

Image

I haven't shot it yet. still kind of hesitant. Thought I'd almost rather shoot them if they are safe than use the bullet puller on the rest of them. I think I about dislocated my shoulder pulling that one bullet out. Never seen anything crimped so tight.

I need to load up some 250 rounds really soon and get out and shoot some!!!!!!
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GunnyMack
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Re: Factory ammo verification

Post by GunnyMack »

Look at the inside of a case( pull a bullet) is it bright & shiney? If so its factory fresh. Do you see any length wise scratches on the outside? That would show the cases going through a sizing die.
As we know factory powders vary somewhat from what we can get, but I doubt that much variation.
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FLINT
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Re: Factory ammo verification

Post by FLINT »

the cases don't appear to have been sized. they look bulge/scratch free.
44shooter
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Re: Factory ammo verification

Post by 44shooter »

Those have all the evidence of being factory rounds and no evidence of them being hand loaded. I would shoot them and not worry about it. As for the box, the rounds are probably just short enough for say the 30-30 size instead of the 243/308 size, so they used the smaller box. The 100 grain may have to use the next bigger box.
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