A TALE OF TWO BULLETS

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here ... politely.

Moderators: AmBraCol, Hobie

Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Post Reply
User avatar
JimT
Shootist
Posts: 5468
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:04 pm

A TALE OF TWO BULLETS

Post by JimT »

457191b.jpg
Lyman #457191

The Lyman #457191 bullet was introduced by the old Ideal Corporation for use in the .45-90 Winchester. I used this bullet in an 1886 Winchester .45-70 for quite some time. It is an old-timer and a good one. It also makes an interesting sixgun bullet for heavy loads in the .45 Colt. There are better bullets on the market now, but when I was first starting out they were kind of hard to come by.

While corresponding with Elmer Keith about heavy loads in the .45 Colt he shared that in early years he had tried the Lyman #457191 300 gr. bullet in the .45 Colt. After he had a blowup (not with those bullets.. an old blackpowder frame let go) he switched to the .44 Special and left off messing with heavy loads in the .45.

The load he used in the Colt SAA was:
Bullet - Lyman #457191 sized to .452"
Powder - 17.5 gr. 2400
Velocity - 861 fps from a 5 1/2" barreled Colt

He also used 35 gr. FFg blackpowder with this bullet and said it very powerful. He related to me that he had shot one of these end-to-end through a Mule Deer.

(Note: some years later I tried the blackpowder load in my Ruger. It was very accurate to 300 yards.)

I figured the Ruger had to be quite a bit stronger than the old Colt's and obtained a bullet mold from Lyman. I sized the bullets down in 2 steps.. first to .454" and then to .452". I first loaded these over 18.5 gr. 2400 and tried them out. Power was up considerably judging by recoil and by effect when firing into 2 foot long timbers stood on end.

I found in the Ruger I could seat the bullet out of the case enough to use the top grease groove as a crimp groove. This shortened the bullet jump from chamber to barrel and allowed more powder capacity. I went as high as 21 gr. of 2400 but backed off and eventually settled on the 18.5 gr. charge. This has proven to be one of the more accurate loads I have ever used.
457191.jpg
When Linebaugh suggested WW-296 I tried it and have used it for full power hunting loads, but I keep coming back to the 2400 load. It is easy on the gun and the shooter and has all the power I need for most applications. Shooting at better than 3/8 of a mile it easily penetrated the walls of an old log cabin... even though it started out at only a little over 1100 fps.

This load accounted for quite a few 200 yard rams, taking them cleanly off the stands.

One year I made a nice 150 yard cross-canyon shot on a javelina. I don't like to shoot that far on them but did not feel like climbing down and back up again and then trying to look for the pigs... not when one was standing there perfectly still presenting me with a nice side shot.

I held the sight up a bit and shot right over it's neck.

The pig jumped and then stayed still. I lowered the sight a bit and touched off the next shot. At the shot the pig went down. The slug took it in the right front shoulder, raking forward, and exited the left side of it's head. Lights out.

<><><><><><><><><><><>
ssk270451.jpg
I received a mold from J.D. Jones. It casts a .45 caliber bullet of 270 grains. A "truncated cone" shape with a meplat the same diameter as the Keith #454424.

All loads with bullets sized .452" and lubed with Apache Blue
All loaded in W-W cases
All with Federal #150 primers

7.5 gr. Unique ..... 778 fps
8.5 gr. Unique ..... 850 fps
18.5 gr. 2400 ..... 1186 fps ( accuracy load )
20.0 gr. 2400 ..... 1304 fps
25.0 gr. WW296 .. 1274 fps
26.0 gr. WW296 .. 1398 fps

I settled on the 18.5 gr. 2400 load as it was so accurate. During the 1986 Javelina season I shot a nice boar at about 20 or 25 yards. Chuck Meacham of Safari Club Internation scored the head at 14 8/16 making it the largest taken with a handgun in SCI at that time. I won the 1986 Gold Award from SCI for best animal in it's class. The skull was donated to SCI's Wildlife Museum in Tucson.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
piller
Posting leader...
Posts: 15189
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:49 pm
Location: South of Dallas

Re: A TALE OF TWO BULLETS

Post by piller »

Sounds like a great load for a .45 Colt caliber Ruger or Freedom Arms.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
User avatar
AJMD429
Posting leader...
Posts: 31936
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Hoosierland
Contact:

Re: A TALE OF TWO BULLETS

Post by AJMD429 »

piller wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 9:14 am Sounds like a great load for a .45 Colt caliber Ruger or Freedom Arms.
...or from a levergun... 8)
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
Drawdown
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 578
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:19 pm

Re: A TALE OF TWO BULLETS

Post by Drawdown »

Jim, you know your lead! Good read!
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life"

"Better drawdown Alvin!"
"If you gotta shoot, shoot don't talk"
Conservative since day one and until the last!
Catshooter
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 996
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:19 pm
Location: South East South Dakota

Re: A TALE OF TWO BULLETS

Post by Catshooter »

Jim,

You're killing me here man! I can't tell how long I've looked for a 457191. I read an article by Gene Crumb (remember him?) about a thousand years ago where he used one and I've wanted to give it a try ever since.

Wanna sell it? Huh? Do you huh? :)
User avatar
Scott Tschirhart
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3839
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:56 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: A TALE OF TWO BULLETS

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Very interesting Jim.

I wish you were in Arkansas this year as we had some interesting discussions about .45 Colt bullets.

I'm currently working with that FA 97 with the short chamber that requires me to deep seat some bullets (like the 270SAA) and crimp over the front of the shoulder.

Does anyone have a photo of a Keith style bullet that they have deep seated and crimped over the shoulder to see if I am doing this correctly?
samsi
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 440
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:55 am
Location: AZ

Re: A TALE OF TWO BULLETS

Post by samsi »

Scott, no pictures to share, but I think the main thing is to seat the bullet deep enough that the roll crimp doesn't damage the front band. I deep seat quite a bit in the .44 mag using 44 Special data and OAL's. There's generally plenty of space between the front band and the crimp going that route. Most of what I load there are the Skeeter load or a sorta standard pressure load with 5.5 of W231, though I do load Elmer's Heavy Special number in mag brass sometimes. I'll give the 2400 load a little more crimp than with the faster powders but it may be a moot point with the crimp out ahead of the bullet rather than being in the crimp groove proper.

I've never deep seated in the 45 Colt, nor do I have any experience with the FA97, but might it be an option to seat the Keith bullet with just a bit of the front band showing (.010-ish) and taper crimp like with the H&G68 in 45ACP? Sitting here thinking about it, I like the idea and may try it myself...Schofield data perhaps?
User avatar
Scott Tschirhart
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3839
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:56 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: A TALE OF TWO BULLETS

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

I'm getting good accuracy and what seems like plenty of power with 8.5 gr of Unique. The bullet is not creeping forward in recoil but I’m crimping right on the forward edge.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Scott Tschirhart on Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
piller
Posting leader...
Posts: 15189
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:49 pm
Location: South of Dallas

Re: A TALE OF TWO BULLETS

Post by piller »

Jim, the distance you can get out of that load and the accuracy along with the distance is impressive. Seems to me that lead bullets out of a . 45 Colt caliber have been overlooked by a bunch of people.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
Post Reply