Making .22 Longs out of .22 Long Rifles?

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Mike Armstrong
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Making .22 Longs out of .22 Long Rifles?

Post by Mike Armstrong »

I have several firearms chambered for .22 Long ammo ( a Win Lo Wall 1885 single shot, a Win 1890 pump, and a Vicenzo Bernardelli "Baby" .22 automatic pistol). I've been having problems finding .22 Long ammo in recent years--it seems that the manufacturers run it about as rarely as they run .22 WRF (.22 Special to Remington fans).

So I've been wondering if Longs could be made from .22 LRs, which use the same case? There's no problem with my Lo Wall and my pump using Shorts, of course--they chamber fine and are accurate, and they feed perfectly in the pump.

But what about Baby? I don't shoot her much any more, but would like to be able to. She won't feed Shorts, although she'll eject them when fired as a single shot, only jamming when I try to get her to feed them from the magazines. She won't work with .22 Long CB caps, either. She works with the CCI high velocity Longs, but they are very hard to find and I'm not sure that they won't break her with any prolonged use.

I wonder if anyone has ever tried trimming the bullet on a mild LR, like a match or "quiet" load, and shooting it in a Long-chambered auto? It shouldn't be too hard to figure how much lead to remove from a 40 gr bullet to get it to be a 29 gr, then trim the bullet down on a mild-loaded LR and run it through the magazine and fire it. But has anyone ever tried this?

My problem with this experiment is that I don't want to break "Baby"-it's a hard to find auto and parts just aren't readily available, and it has sentimental value, as well as being a well-designed and made little jewel--almost jewelry! Mine was imported by Stoeger's in 1949, if I read the date code right.

.22 Long-chambered arms are all old. I don't think any have been made for this ctg. since the 1950s. And some of them are pretty valuable, especially Winchester and Colt pumps--you really don't want to break those. (If you have Long-chambered '73, you REALLY don't want to break it!). But these rifles all shoot Shorts just fine, so problem solved.

If you have a really old S&W single action revolver made for Longs, or an original DA "Ladysmith," your could probably shoot standard or "Match" Shorts in it without harming it but those are worth a lot and experiments with them don't make much sense. (I wouldn't shoot Long-chambered "Suicide Specials" with any ctg. but that's just me).

Anybody have any experience with making Longs out of Long Rifles?
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Re: Making .22 Longs out of .22 Long Rifles?

Post by earlmck »

Interesting question Mike. I don't have any real life experience with this but... my rather elderly version of QuickLoad has 22 Long Rifle in its program for "experimental" purposes, showing a maximum pressure allowable of just under 30k psi. I played with this a little bit -- 1.3 grains of Hodgdon's Clays powder shows a "high velocity" loading velocity of 1300 fps from a 24" bbl and around 28k psi, so plausible. When I drop the charge to 1.0 grains of Clays it shows 1135 fps and a bit over 17k psi, so maybe plausible for a "standard velocity" loading. When I then reduce the weight of the bullet to 29 grains and the length of the bullet by 25% the resulting load shows we are back to 1300 fps with a bit over 14k psi. So QuickLoad is guessing that if you take a standard velocity long rifle cartridge and reduce the bullet weight to 29 grains you'll drop the pressure about 3000 psi, or close to 20%. Now I have absolutely no idea how close old QL is to reality but that is the best I can do on your question.
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Re: Making .22 Longs out of .22 Long Rifles?

Post by Mike Armstrong »

I'm gonna experiment with taking "quiet" LRs which are subsonic and cutting off the bullets to various lengths til I get one that's 29 gr, hoping to get a nice little wadcutter that won't break my "Baby" and will still motivate her slide. Hoping that my powder scale will be accurate enough to accomplish this since i'm going to be weighing complete LR rounds and then cutting them back. Not really interested in dis-assembling them and then re-assembling them into modified loaded rounds, which would be quite a pain and need really precise re-assembly to make sure that little Bernardelli would function....not sure I'm up to that in my present decrepitude.
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Re: Making .22 Longs out of .22 Long Rifles?

Post by AJMD429 »

.
I don't have the answer but I think your premise makes sense. Swaging the bullet down 1,000 of an inch wouldn't be an issue and I don't even think it would be necessary if the gun has much wear.

I read this to learn about 22 Long...(never had one).

https://shootbigbucks.com/whats-the-dif ... and-22wmr/

Interesting to note that a 22 wmr might send a 50-grain bullet down range with about half the velocity a 223 Remington sends a 55 grain bullet down range...
Last edited by AJMD429 on Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Making .22 Longs out of .22 Long Rifles?

Post by AJMD429 »

.
One of the older style pencil sharpeners that has the two angled gears that rotate might be modifiable to do some lead shaving that would be precise although not necessarily the angle you ultimately want for flight or terminal ballistics. I would think you could make some sort of a holding device to insert the cartridge to the depth needed. You might have to use a reamer to take off the teeth of the gears towards the opening of the sharpener.
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Re: Making .22 Longs out of .22 Long Rifles?

Post by earlmck »

This could get interesting: nice find on that article Doc; I'd not before read that shorts and longs are .222 and long rifles .223. I don't have any longs in my stash, but the few shorts I have do indeed mike .222 and all my long rifles of several brands mike at least .223 with some Aquila going .2235 or thereabouts. And the .223 body section of the long rifle bullets appears to be longer than pictures I have of longs. So it is possible that just chopping enough nose off to get down to 29 grains of bullet remaining might not be enough; seems likely that some bullet swaging could be needed to get them to chamber.
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Re: Making .22 Longs out of .22 Long Rifles?

Post by marlinman93 »

I've owned a few .22 Long chambered rifles and so far all have accepted a .22LR cartridge without any modification to the gun or the ammo. I would simply try a .22LR in the chamber, and see how it fits. If it fits, then shoot it to see what kind of accuracy it has.
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Re: Making .22 Longs out of .22 Long Rifles?

Post by Mike Armstrong »

thanks for the replies. Rifles aren't the problem for the most part. The majority of them aren't gonna get stretched or busted by any regular LR, and many of them will chamber LRS with a little elbow grease. But all of them are a different twist than LRs and some may not be accurate with 37-40 gr. bullets. Some are. But I worry a little about really old repeaters and the weaker single shots like Floberts.

As I mentioned, my real problem is only with my "Baby" although a friend of mine also has a .22 Long-chambered foreign mini auto, a Belgian "Melior" that looks like a miniature Browning 1910 with its "tube" slide. He has no intention of firing his and doesn't have a magazine for it anyway. It also was imported in the late 1940/early '50s and is a lot rougher constructed than my "Baby." Apparently the "Baby" was made by several other companies after Bernardelli was purchased by a Turkish firm, but I've never encountered any such knockoffs.
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Re: Making .22 Longs out of .22 Long Rifles?

Post by 44shooter »

Your approach seems reasonable to me. Maybe make a cap out of wood or something with a hole in it so you can put it over the bullet and cut off the nose that sticks out. Of course if you can find some longs that would be much more simple even at high prices. I don’t think I would worry about diameter and bearing surface much. I just don’t think the pressures and thrust are enough to be that significant. I would probably just cut the bullets back until they resemble longs and see if they chambered and try them. I think if you stick with standard or reduced velocity you won’t run your pistol too hard. I say this not knowing anything about your pistol. And yes I know even modern rimfire auto pistols can be very finicky. If you have a chronograph you can see how close your rounds compare to longs. Preferably develop them in a rifle first
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Re: Making .22 Longs out of .22 Long Rifles?

Post by Mike Armstrong »

Thanks! I wonder if any of Paco's ".22 bullet improvement tools" might be adapted for this purpose. I'll look at 'em.

11 grains of lead (27.5%) really doesn't seem like that much, but I remember that smallbores are pretty touchy about bullet weight/twist! Also MIGHT make some of those classic .22 Long chambered rifles group a bit better if they have good bores; just a thought.
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Re: Making .22 Longs out of .22 Long Rifles?

Post by 3leggedturtle »

North American Arms NAA.... makes and sells 30gr bullets fir there .22 cal blackpowder revolvers if you want to try thise.
30/30 Winchester: Not accurate enough fer varmints, barely adequate for small deer; BUT In a 10" to 14" barrelled pistol; is good for moose/elk to 200 yards; ground squirrels to 300 metres

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Re: Making .22 Longs out of .22 Long Rifles?

Post by AJMD429 »

.
You could even pull them and reduce the powder charge but you'd be below the normal volumetrics for reloading, so would have to make a measure or go by weight with a lab-grade scale.
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Re: Making .22 Longs out of .22 Long Rifles?

Post by marlinman93 »

I only shoot .22LR that are either target velocity, or standard velocity in my old guns in the .22 Long chambering. I've never expected those guns to shoot super accurate simply because of their age. So if they hit paper at 25 yds. with any kind of decent groups I'm happy. Most of mine will shoot 4" groups or less at 25 yds., so not game getters, but decent paper punchers.
I personally wont waste time trying to reshape bullets because I doubt I could get them consistent in weight and shape. So I'll live with the accuracy I do get and not fuss with them.
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Re: Making .22 Longs out of .22 Long Rifles?

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marlinman93 wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:16 am I only shoot .22LR that are either target velocity, or standard velocity in my old guns in the .22 Long chambering. I've never expected those guns to shoot super accurate simply because of their age. So if they hit paper at 25 yds. with any kind of decent groups I'm happy. Most of mine will shoot 4" groups or less at 25 yds., so not game getters, but decent paper punchers.
I personally wont waste time trying to reshape bullets because I doubt I could get them consistent in weight and shape. So I'll live with the accuracy I do get and not fuss with them.
Paco's acu'rizer or however he spells it would do a decent and fast reshape if you decide to. It swages 'up' the diameter to full-spec, but that shouldn't hurt, or if you have access to a drill press purchasing one (maybe two?) of the correct drill bit(s) diameter(s) would get you the die. You could make punches out of brass rod and a hand-file, and possibly incorporate a slot for cutoff.

...dunno if there's a market but someone else may want to do the same thing so you could make a few extra and sell them.
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Re: Making .22 Longs out of .22 Long Rifles?

Post by marlinman93 »

AJMD429 wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:21 am
marlinman93 wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:16 am I only shoot .22LR that are either target velocity, or standard velocity in my old guns in the .22 Long chambering. I've never expected those guns to shoot super accurate simply because of their age. So if they hit paper at 25 yds. with any kind of decent groups I'm happy. Most of mine will shoot 4" groups or less at 25 yds., so not game getters, but decent paper punchers.
I personally wont waste time trying to reshape bullets because I doubt I could get them consistent in weight and shape. So I'll live with the accuracy I do get and not fuss with them.
Paco's acu'rizer or however he spells it would do a decent and fast reshape if you decide to. It swages 'up' the diameter to full-spec, but that shouldn't hurt, or if you have access to a drill press purchasing one (maybe two?) of the correct drill bit(s) diameter(s) would get you the die. You could make punches out of brass rod and a hand-file, and possibly incorporate a slot for cutoff.

...dunno if there's a market but someone else may want to do the same thing so you could make a few extra and sell them.
I suppose somebody could. But I'm not wasting any time trying it.
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Re: Making .22 Longs out of .22 Long Rifles?

Post by AmBraCol »

I picked up a few boxes of 22 Long at an auction years ago. They ARE hard to find anymore, that's for sure.

Gary Reeder makes a SGB former, but don't know how much gets shaved off the bullet. You slide a 22 LR into the device, close it to hold it still and then slice off the tip. Something like that shouldn't be TOO hard to make if you have the tools to do it with. My concern would be the nose shape left - will it feed through your "Baby"?

By the way, Reeder made up a run of his tools a week or two back, probably has a few in stock if you want to give him a call to ask about it. Here's a link to the post where he mentions they just did a run of them.
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Re: Making .22 Longs out of .22 Long Rifles?

Post by hfcable »

Mike Armstrong wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 10:40 pm Thanks! I wonder if any of Paco's ".22 bullet improvement tools" might be adapted for this purpose. I'll look at 'em.

11 grains of lead (27.5%) really doesn't seem like that much, but I remember that smallbores are pretty touchy about bullet weight/twist! Also MIGHT make some of those classic .22 Long chambered rifles group a bit better if they have good bores; just a thought.
gary reeder makes a tool for 'flat pointing 22 lr rounds, just cutting the end off, works well. would probably make these the right length
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Re: Making .22 Longs out of .22 Long Rifles?

Post by AmBraCol »

hfcable wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 6:29 pm
Mike Armstrong wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 10:40 pm Thanks! I wonder if any of Paco's ".22 bullet improvement tools" might be adapted for this purpose. I'll look at 'em.

11 grains of lead (27.5%) really doesn't seem like that much, but I remember that smallbores are pretty touchy about bullet weight/twist! Also MIGHT make some of those classic .22 Long chambered rifles group a bit better if they have good bores; just a thought.
gary reeder makes a tool for 'flat pointing 22 lr rounds, just cutting the end off, works well. would probably make these the right length
Here's a link to the post where he mentions they just did a run of them.
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Re: Making .22 Longs out of .22 Long Rifles?

Post by FLINT »

sounds like you have access to .22 shorts. Why not just pull the bullets out of a short and put them in the LR cases? seems like that would be a lot easier than trying to trim a LR bullet down to 29g. after all isn't that exactly what a .22 long is? .22 short bullet in a .22 LR case?
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Re: Making .22 Longs out of .22 Long Rifles?

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marlinman93 wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 8:10 pm I've owned a few .22 Long chambered rifles and so far all have accepted a .22LR cartridge without any modification to the gun or the ammo. I would simply try a .22LR in the chamber, and see how it fits. If it fits, then shoot it to see what kind of accuracy it has.
Since your Marlnman ;) I've seen a 39 break from LR.
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Re: Making .22 Longs out of .22 Long Rifles?

Post by coyote nose »

One of my pet peeves is the way gun writers have just followed the herd and did nothing but write about how longs are useless and not accurate and they just do not understand why anybody would use them. Decades of that and nobody bought them and now they are basically obsolete. Maybe the writers should have tested them first. Yes, some shot terribly (the Remingtons were horrendous in any gun I ever tested them in) but the BEST round of maybe 45 or 50 different 22s I did extensive testing on in my old Remington 512X was a 22 long. It became my number one squirrel gun with that CCI long load until I sold the gun (and made a Stevens favorite in 22 Short only my main squirrel gun). It even beat out match ammunition I tried!
But on to the general problem of lack of 22 Long ammo, I do believe there is a difference between the long and the long rifle round besides the bullet weight. I believe most LR rounds also have an additional driving band above the crimp compared to the long. I am not home to compare all the brands but you may want to look into this. Which means that even though the overall length of a trimmed LR round would equal the overall length of a L round, they still may not chamber in a rifle since the driving band may interfere. I do not know about your revolver. I so wish I did not have 100 projects already lined up!! I would make a lathe bit with the correct profile for the long round, and a 2 piece holder which clamps on the case but does not touch the rim for safety's sake. Putting that in a lathe collet it would be a simple matter of turning the bullet profile to the correct length and number of driving bands. In a quick release collet and with the bit ground to cut length and profile in the same operation it would be quite fast and easy. If I wasn't retired it would be a nice way to spend a lunch hour or two at work, making the tooling. If I ever buy a Winchester 1890 or Colt Lightning in 22 Long only, I will probably have to make the tooling and try it out using standard velocity ammo. I am throwing this out there in case anyone else has a lathe with a QR collet system and needs a project, but remember they are primed on the rim so any holder would have to make sure the rim does not get contacted.....safety first!

If your revolver has straight thru chambering, and you wish to risk experimenting, I would start with the standard velocity ammo and trim it to length to make sure it would chamber, you probably do not have to worry about driving bands unless you shoot them in a rifle.
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Re: Making .22 Longs out of .22 Long Rifles?

Post by marlinman93 »

David wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:01 am
marlinman93 wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 8:10 pm I've owned a few .22 Long chambered rifles and so far all have accepted a .22LR cartridge without any modification to the gun or the ammo. I would simply try a .22LR in the chamber, and see how it fits. If it fits, then shoot it to see what kind of accuracy it has.
Since your Marlnman ;) I've seen a 39 break from LR.
Only if it was an early 39 before the company reworked the breech bolts for the high speed .22LR that hit the markets in the mid 1920's. In the early 1930's Marlin added an "HS" prefix to the serial numbers of the reworked 39's to indicate the upgraded breech bolts.
But I've had numerous early pre HS Model 39's and never broken a bolt. I simply didn't shoot high speed .22's, and they handle std. velocity just fine.
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Re: Making .22 Longs out of .22 Long Rifles?

Post by David »

marlinman93 wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 5:13 pm
David wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:01 am
marlinman93 wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 8:10 pm I've owned a few .22 Long chambered rifles and so far all have accepted a .22LR cartridge without any modification to the gun or the ammo. I would simply try a .22LR in the chamber, and see how it fits. If it fits, then shoot it to see what kind of accuracy it has.
Since your Marlnman ;) I've seen a 39 break from LR.
Only if it was an early 39 before the company reworked the breech bolts for the high speed .22LR that hit the markets in the mid 1920's. In the early 1930's Marlin added an "HS" prefix to the serial numbers of the reworked 39's to indicate the upgraded breech bolts.
But I've had numerous early pre HS Model 39's and never broken a bolt. I simply didn't shoot high speed .22's, and they handle std. velocity just fine.
Yes a 39 not a 39S, I have a beautiful engraved one (byt who how?) with a buckhorn sight, was just too pretty but someone offered me a pile of cash for it so it found a new home. I'd like to see a new "Ruger" Marlin in 45LC like the first 45-70 they made. I'm not shooting Dinosaurs well actually I occasionally do I have one on my shooting range, but just NOTHING makes him move.
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