Interesting problem .38 and Freedom Arms

[Scott Tschirhart]

I’ve been loading .38 and.357 since I was 16 years old and used a Lee Loader and a plastic mallet.

Never had a problem.

Now I’m loading for a Freedom Arms 97 with a .357 and a .38 cylinder and many of my old tine handloads just don’t chamber.

I had to resort to a Lee Factory Crimp die to get consistent chambering.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Seems like it’s really hard on the brass. I consulted with friends here and they helped me through the measuring process but I was still having trouble.

Turns out that the bullets are binding on the chamber throats.

So I’m going to try seating a little deeper.

[Scott Tschirhart]

These drop right in the chambers but I wonder how much they might raise pressures?

[Sixgun]

Freedom Arms guns were manufactured to minimum specs which results in a bullet going into the barrel concentric. Quality...match chambers in all guns are made the same way.

In a cheap junky gun, most chambers are sloppy resulting in gravity putting the loaded round on a downward angle which leads the bullet to hit the bore on an angle.

That's why many guys have issues with the 45 long Colt concerning accuracy as they will lazily use a carbide sizer which are made to 45 a.c.p. specs (smaller than 45 L.Colt) and thus will over resize the case. If someone uses an over resized case along with a sloppy chamber they will compound the problem with a bullet entering the bore at a 5 degree angle. (or whatever angle)

As far as the bullet hitting the chamber throats that's a different issue which calls for different solutions.

[1894cfan]

So THAT's why I've been getting lead splashing on the front of my 357 cyls. All these years I've been using an RCBS carbide sizer die!

[Scott Tschirhart]

So do my carbide dies make me lazy or do I use carbide dies because I’m lazy?

[1894cfan]

So do my carbide dies make me lazy or do I use carbide dies because I’m lazy?

[Sixgun]

People use carbide dies because they are easier to use, not better. Men, like water, take the easiest route on most everything. Take a quality micrometer and measure a before and after using carbide vs.steel dies.

The best way is always the hardest way.....match shooters will use the same same case which is indexed with a mark and they will insert the loaded round into the chamber the exact same way with each shot. I've seen it and done it, even indexing a few cast bullet moulds so the bullet will have a tiny mark on it and I'll load the indexed bullet into the indexed case according to the mark on the case and put it all in the chamber the exact same way each time as the chamber is never perfectly round. Upon ignition the bullet will enter the bore the exact same way each time.

Impossible with a revolver but Freedom Arms slowly and expertly chambered their cylinders to minimum SAMMI specs and these revolvers need SAMMI spec ammo.

Different cast bullets will have varying ogives so the experienced handloader can match an ogive to a specific chamber, throat, and/or rifling. It's just another reason why some cast bullets will shoot excellent in some brands of rifles/rifles and so-so in others.

Mass/commercial bullets are made to specs to where they will chamber in the most amount of guns. Elmer Keith was none too happy when Lyman changed his original design. Lyman claimed they had to do it so it would chamber in a multitude of different manufactured guns.

For an example, take a sloppy chambered Rossi and resize the brass with carbide and you might get lucky to get 3 reloads before the case splits.

I may sound like I know it all but I'm just trying to educate the people and spread the knowledge I've learned over the last 50 years to those who don't know these things, the same way gun writers do it, but I don't charge.

Sorry if I responded at all....my apologies.----006

[AJMD429]

.
Good educational response.

I'm the first to admit that most of the time I'm too lazy to go that extra mile for such precision, but I'm fascinated to learn from those who do. Sometimes I'll copy some (or rarely, all) of what they do.

Other times my own OCD kicks in, and I get all detail-oriented. Mostly with my job (at least the medical, if not the business, part). Sometimes with gardening or guns though.

I used to be super meticulous with loading for my 6mm Rem, and it DID pay off. The challenge was to see if a dime could cover a TEN shot group at 100 yards, and most of the time it could.

I've never been a good enough shot with a revolver to bother with such things; I could mix 357 Mag 180 grainers, 125 grainers, 38 Special 158 grainers, and shoot the same precision 8" group at 15 feet as I could using match ammo in a tuned gun...

[AmBraCol]

Getting back to the original post, the Lee Whack 'Em Loader kit only sizes the front of the cartridge. So if it is shot in a loose chamber it will not fit into a tighter chamber. Kind of the same principle as a "neck size only" sizing die. I loaded hundreds of rounds on one back in the day and had a deal for folks where if they'd bring me six empty 38's I'd give them one loaded round. I ended up with all kinds of head stamps and cartridges that'd been fired in all kinds of revolvers. And I had a few folk bring back the reloads because they'd not chamber in their gun. I'd always swap for one that did and everyone was happy. But I got happier when I got my hands on a Lee Speed Die in 357 magnum and an RCBS Junior press. Those loads would chamber in anything in the area and gave great service. I've still got a couple of the Lee Loaders, but haven't used one in decades. From what folks tell me, those Freedom Arms resolvers have TIGHT chambers and can be finicky about the ammo they'll accept. I'd still love to have one though. Years ago I stopped at the FA factory up in Wyoming and they had a model 97 357 magnum with a, if I recall correctly, 6" barrel with an octagon profile on it. That was a lovely little sixshooter indeed. Some how 6" doesn't seem right, but that's the number that springs to mind. It wasn't a short barrel nor yet a full 7 1/2" either. Makes me wonder about my rememberer at times.

[Leverluver]

Got the same issue (if you consider it one) with a 97 in 44spec. A +.00 -.0002" pin gauge will "barely" go through a chamber throat IF the chamber is spotless clean, which it obviously isn't after one shot. So it a .428 gun and that's it. Either that or, as you figured out, seat different or use bullets without full diameter fore part of the bullet. I buy bullets that work in all my revolvers but I do have to resize for the 97. Such is life.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Sixgun,

I apologize for any offense my comment caused. I’m shooting mostly machine cast bullets these days and I’m not up to your level of care and precision.

I used to load very carefully for my rifle cartridges, but I don’t even do that anymore.

Thank you for pointing out the issues in a very clear manner.

[Scott Tschirhart]

What’s interesting is that my regular handloads drop right into the chambers of Freedom Arms 97s in .44 Special and.45 Colt.

[JimT]

What’s interesting is that my regular handloads drop right into the chambers of Freedom Arms 97s in .44 Special and.45 Colt.

I haven't had any issues with my Model 97 in .45 Colt and .45 ACP. The 454 was a different story. Took me a little while to get the bullet size correct so they would chamber.

[Grizz]

Scott, can you thumb your bullets thru the chamber? If the chamber is tighter than your bullet size, it will swage the bullet on the way through, which affects velocity... I buy my 357 and 44 bullets sized to swage in the barrel. To accurize my 44 revolver I need to hone the chambers until I can press the bullet through by hand. OTOH if they drop through the chamber they may or may not get straightened out and fly right.

[JimT]

Scott, can you thumb your bullets thru the chamber? If the chamber is tighter than your bullet size, it will swage the bullet on the way through, which affects velocity... I buy my 357 and 44 bullets sized to swage in the barrel. To accurize my 44 revolver I need to hone the chambers until I can press the bullet through by hand. OTOH if they drop through the chamber they may or may not get straightened out and fly right.

When my Dad reamed his Taylor Throat in my Ruger .45 it suddenly became accurate with anything .. nearly. I shot 25 5-shot groups at 25 yards with each bullet diameter starting with .450" .. then .452" and finally .454". All 3 diameters were accurate with .452" winning the top prize. But all the diameters accuracy results were very close.

The barrel is a hand-rifled hand-lapped barrel that tapers from .452" at the breech to .450" at the muzzle. The Taylor Throat allows the bullets to "center" in the bore before they engage the rifling.

The result is a velocity gain as well as an accuracy gain. The Wesson brothers ran extensive tests on it and proved for themselves that it worked. They included it in the "Accuracy Package" when they were building guns.

[Grizz]

Very interesting Jim. were the chambers sized to the bullets? my plan is to lap the barrel after I fit the chambers to the 405gr bullet . .. . my 44 is a one-load gun, no copper fouling . . .

[Sixgun]

While I've never owned a Fredom Arms, I've shot a 44 Spl and admired others. The quality and fit of a F.A. makes a Colt look like junk....(in the fit and movement dept.) The 44 Spl was a five shot...don't remember the model but it was about the size of a single six, only much beefier...

Guess it's not cheap to make a gun like that.

No offense taken Scott.....by now you must have figured there's 2 sides to me.....yes, I can be serious and exacting.....it's just that "that other nutty side" is more fun. Up to 62 years of age other people determined my mood and sometimes my destiny. When I retired, my inner dialog told me, "That's it, every minute is mine to do as I please"......and I'm doing it.----006

[JimT]

Very interesting Jim. were the chambers sized to the bullets? my plan is to lap the barrel after I fit the chambers to the 405gr bullet . .. . my 44 is a one-load gun, no copper fouling . . .

No they weren't. I forget the exact measurement now.. would have to dig the gun out and check it again... but handloads with .454" diameter bullets chamber OK.

Years ago Ross Seyfried wrote an article on "The Minute Of Angle Sixgun" ... he had Bowen build 4 different barrels, all with different throats. The sixgun was a heavy .45 Colt. He had a 10X scope on it if I remember correctly. Shoot a hundred yards from a good rest. The only barrel that shot minute of angle or better was the Taylor Throated one. I recall he had his doubts about it when he first saw it.

[Old Savage]

Just what is the Taylor Throat?

[Paul105]

Getting back to the original post, the Lee Whack 'Em Loader kit only sizes the front of the cartridge. So if it is shot in a loose chamber it will not fit into a tighter chamber. Kind of the same principle as a "neck size only" sizing die. I loaded hundreds of rounds on one back in the day and had a deal for folks where if they'd bring me six empty 38's I'd give them one loaded round. I ended up with all kinds of head stamps and cartridges that'd been fired in all kinds of revolvers. And I had a few folk bring back the reloads because they'd not chamber in their gun. I'd always swap for one that did and everyone was happy. But I got happier when I got my hands on a Lee Speed Die in 357 magnum and an RCBS Junior press. Those loads would chamber in anything in the area and gave great service. I've still got a couple of the Lee Loaders, but haven't used one in decades. From what folks tell me, those Freedom Arms resolvers have TIGHT chambers and can be finicky about the ammo they'll accept. I'd still love to have one though. Years ago I stopped at the FA factory up in Wyoming and they had a model 97 357 magnum with a, if I recall correctly, 6" barrel with an octagon profile on it. That was a lovely little sixshooter indeed. Some how 6" doesn't seem right, but that's the number that springs to mind. It wasn't a short barrel nor yet a full 7 1/2" either. Makes me wonder about my rememberer at times.

5 1/2"
.

.
Paul

[JimT]

Just what is the Taylor Throat?

It is a freebore just after the leade that allows the bullet to align in the bore before it is gripped by the rifling. My Dad's was about 1 bullet diameter long for each caliber. Gary Reeder has done testing with longer heavier bullets and his version is twice that long.

In my .45 Ruger this was the accuracy and velocity results. I am not saying every gun will exhibit the same kind of improvement. Some do, some are even better, some it does not make a lot of change.

Testing the gun I fired 25 5-shot groups at 25 yards with 3 different bullet diameters. Where the gun originally was particular to the bullet diameter, now it shot well with any of these sizes:

.450" diameter averaged 2.3"
.452" diameter averaged 1.8"
.454" diameter averaged 1.99"

throating2.JPG

I Taylor-throated my 475 Linebaugh. It did not exhibit much of a velocity change but it was not as prone to lead afterward.

throating1.JPG

[Old Savage]

Thanks JimT

[Scott Tschirhart]

No offense taken Scott.....by now you must have figured there's 2 sides to me.....yes, I can be serious and exacting.....it's just that "that other nutty side" is more fun. Up to 62 years of age other people determined my mood and sometimes my destiny. When I retired, my inner dialog told me, "That's it, every minute is mine to do as I please"......and I'm doing it.----006

Glad to hear that. I was more trying to make fun of myself and I don't come here to trouble anyone else.

The bullets I am using are sized .358. This works well through all of my other .357 revolvers and leverguns.

They also shoot great out of the FA. So I think they are not bothered by being sized down by the big flash behind them.

I can push a .357 diameter XTP through with little effort. But the .358 bullets do not go through without some force.

[AmBraCol]

Getting back to the original post, the Lee Whack 'Em Loader kit only sizes the front of the cartridge. So if it is shot in a loose chamber it will not fit into a tighter chamber. Kind of the same principle as a "neck size only" sizing die. I loaded hundreds of rounds on one back in the day and had a deal for folks where if they'd bring me six empty 38's I'd give them one loaded round. I ended up with all kinds of head stamps and cartridges that'd been fired in all kinds of revolvers. And I had a few folk bring back the reloads because they'd not chamber in their gun. I'd always swap for one that did and everyone was happy. But I got happier when I got my hands on a Lee Speed Die in 357 magnum and an RCBS Junior press. Those loads would chamber in anything in the area and gave great service. I've still got a couple of the Lee Loaders, but haven't used one in decades. From what folks tell me, those Freedom Arms resolvers have TIGHT chambers and can be finicky about the ammo they'll accept. I'd still love to have one though. Years ago I stopped at the FA factory up in Wyoming and they had a model 97 357 magnum with a, if I recall correctly, 6" barrel with an octagon profile on it. That was a lovely little sixshooter indeed. Some how 6" doesn't seem right, but that's the number that springs to mind. It wasn't a short barrel nor yet a full 7 1/2" either. Makes me wonder about my rememberer at times.

5 1/2"
.

.
Paul

Thanks, Paul! That image has stuck in my brain. 5 1/2" would probably be right (unless they did a one off custom length). That's one fine looking sixgun!

[AmBraCol]

Just what is the Taylor Throat?

Brownell's used to carry a Taylor Throat reamer. I picked one up and used it on the Llama PPPPPP. It improved things somewhat, but would benefit from the attentions of a gunsmith who knows resolvers. Another benefit of the Taylor Throat is that it can remove the constriction at the barrel/frame juncture. Some sixguns will have a restriction there from over tightening the barrel. That means that the bullet is swaged down by the restriction and then is left to "rattle" it's way on down the bore, with gas blowby and other such issues contributing to inaccuracy and other ills. Reaming that throat out a bit removes the constriction and allows the bullet to center prior to engaging the rifling. It also keeps the bullet from being swaged down smaller than the throats on the cylinder. Assuming they are within proper specs.

[Sixgun]

Jim...was your dad's special reamer patented? Let me get this straight...(I'm brain dead at this time of the evening...well, pretty much all the time anymore)......with the Taylor throat there is a bit of rifling, then freebore and then rifling again for the rest of the barrel? Like, how much rifling before the freebore? 1/8" or so...---006

[JimT]

Jim...was your dad's special reamer patented? Let me get this straight...(I'm brain dead at this time of the evening...well, pretty much all the time anymore)......with the Taylor throat there is a bit of rifling, then freebore and then rifling again for the rest of the barrel? Like, how much rifling before the freebore? 1/8" or so...---006

No, he never patented it. He did give the idea to the Wesson boys as a gift. Major Wesson was a big help to him in WWII and he wanted to help them if he could.

No rifling before the freebore. Sorry. My terminology was misleading. There is an 11 degree throat ... a freebore for about a half inch in .45 caliber .. then the rifling. I should have a diagram someplace. Or maybe I can get a photo of one of my guns .. I have a few that have it. If I can I will post it.

[Grizz]

Jim...was your dad's special reamer patented? Let me get this straight...(I'm brain dead at this time of the evening...well, pretty much all the time anymore)......with the Taylor throat there is a bit of rifling, then freebore and then rifling again for the rest of the barrel? Like, how much rifling before the freebore? 1/8" or so...---006

No, he never patented it. He did give the idea to the Wesson boys as a gift. Major Wesson was a big help to him in WWII and he wanted to help them if he could.

No rifling before the freebore. Sorry. My terminology was misleading. There is an 11 degree throat ... a freebore for about a half inch in .45 caliber .. then the rifling. I should have a diagram someplace. Or maybe I can get a photo of one of my guns .. I have a few that have it. If I can I will post it.

a picture of the tool would be interesting too. was that operation done with the barrel not in the frame? thank you.

[Sixgun]

No rifling before the freebore. Sorry. My terminology was misleading. There is an 11 degree throat ... a freebore for about a half inch in .45 caliber .. then the rifling. I should have a diagram someplace. Or maybe I can get a photo of one of my guns .. I have a few that have it. If I can I will post it.

Thanks Jim...your dad was quite the thinker and obviously forgot more than I'll ever know.....mmmmmm...freebore for about a bullets length with a 11 degree forcing cone. So the freebore is the groove diameter of the barrel....pretend here....358...so the bullet can travel straight without any rifling interference before engaging the rifling.....similar to a Weatherby......but thought of before the Weatherby....did the freebore allow additional pressures/increase in powder and thus, more velocity?

That's really interesting....as you know, Elmer Keith used to take 1917 Smiths, shortened the cylinder and brought the barrel more into the cylinder window and he claimed better accuracy......kinda of an opposite to the Taylor throat......oh what the hell, I can't see the dang sights anymore anyway. ---006

[JimT]

I don't have the tool anymore. Brownell's used to sell them but sometime 15 years ago or so they stopped. With the Brownell tool you did it with the barrel in the gun. It was fairly simple.

I had an awful time trying to get a shot into the throat .. this is my .41 Magnum. Please forgive the poor photography. You can see the freebore and where the rifling begins.

IMG_3286.JPG

IMG_3294.JPG

[JimT]

Thanks Jim...your dad was quite the thinker and obviously forgot more than I'll ever know.....mmmmmm...freebore for about a bullets length with a 11 degree forcing cone. So the freebore is the groove diameter of the barrel....pretend here....358...so the bullet can travel straight without any rifling interference before engaging the rifling.....similar to a Weatherby......but thought of before the Weatherby....did the freebore allow additional pressures/increase in powder and thus, more velocity?

That's really interesting....as you know, Elmer Keith used to take 1917 Smiths, shortened the cylinder and brought the barrel more into the cylinder window and he claimed better accuracy......kinda of an opposite to the Taylor throat......oh what the hell, I can't see the dang sights anymore anyway. ---006

Yes .. you got it. The bullet can line up properly in the bore and then engage the rifling. Some handguns exhibited velocity increase without increasing the powder charge. But yes, it is similar to Weatherby. The early Freedom Arms 454's had a hardened steel throat that screwed into the barrel. It acted the same way. The reason I first did it to my Linebaugh .45 was I was getting some powder erosion in the throat from hot loads and 300 gr. bullets. The throating that my Dad did cured that.

There are number of ways to increase the potential for accuracy in sixguns. This is just one of them.