Mass vs velocity ?

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Mass vs velocity ?

Post by wvfarrier »

Im a huge fan of pistol cal leverguns (obviously). Anyway, I know a lot of folks like really heavy for caliber bullets in their rifles. Anyway at what point are there diminishing returns? Im thinking at the moment about 200-220 grain projectiles in 357 mag. Personally I like 160-180 grain projectiles as it still allows for a pretty decent velocity return. Ive also seen incredibly heavy boolits for 45 colt and 44 mag. Thoughts
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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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Grizz.....I totally agree but......
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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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wvfarrier wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:29 pm Grizz.....I totally agree but......
If Jesus shot a .357, no doubt he would use 180 hardcast for big game. :idea:
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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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Lee Jurras proved that lightweight high velocity bullets work, even in Africa.
John Linebaugh proved that heavy big bore bullets work, even in Africa.

For shooting game, over the years about every bullet weight and type has been tried. The consensus is "Put whatever bullet you are using in the right spot and you have meat. Miss or make a bad hit and none of them work very well."

For very long range target shooting, generally the heavier bullets maintain momentum better. For all around use in the .357 handgun and levergun I like the 160 gr. Flat Point cast bullet. Feeds nice in the levergun and it is accurate. Works pretty well on game.

But they are all fun to play with.
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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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Ray wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:54 pm
JimT wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:44 pm Lee Jurras proved that lightweight high velocity bullets work, even in Africa.
John Linebaugh proved that heavy big bore bullets work, even in Africa.

For shooting game, over the years about every bullet weight and type has been tried. The consensus is "Put whatever bullet you are using in the right spot and you have meat. Miss or make a bad hit and none of them work very well."

For very long range target shooting, generally the heavier bullets maintain momentum better. For all around use in the .357 handgun and levergun I like the 160 gr. Flat Point cast bullet. Feeds nice in the levergun and it is accurate. Works pretty well on game.

But they are all fun to play with.

I first saw this foto in a george c. nonte book circa 1976 or 77.

R.jpeg
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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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Yes .. Jurras and Nonte did quite a bit of work in Africa with light high velocity .357 and .44 Auto Mags. I used to have their book on handgun hunting but either sold it or gave it to someone before we moved to Africa.
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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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Ray wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 4:42 pm
JimT wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 4:35 pm Yes .. Jurras and Nonte did quite a bit of work in Africa with light high velocity .357 and .44 Auto Mags. I used to have their book on handgun hunting but either sold it or gave it to someone before we moved to Africa.
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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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JimT wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:44 pm Lee Jurras proved that lightweight high velocity bullets work, even in Africa.
John Linebaugh proved that heavy big bore bullets work, even in Africa.

For shooting game, over the years about every bullet weight and type has been tried. The consensus is "Put whatever bullet you are using in the right spot and you have meat. Miss or make a bad hit and none of them work very well."

For very long range target shooting, generally the heavier bullets maintain momentum better. For all around use in the .357 handgun and levergun I like the 160 gr. Flat Point cast bullet. Feeds nice in the levergun and it is accurate. Works pretty well on game.

But they are all fun to play with.
Yep.

I guess you could add the really higher velocity you can attain with lightweight bullets can make flatter trajectories, which make accurate shot placement easier when you don't know the exact range.

Like Jim said though... They all work if you put them in the right place and the bullet is constructed right. The fun part is trying different combinations to see which one you like the best. I've been trying that for about five decades now and still haven't figured out my preferences... :D
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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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wvfarrier wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:29 pm Grizz.....I totally agree but......
for me it came down to what happens to the bullet as it strikes game. i had a 7mm rem mag for a while. tiny little hole in the end of the thing, but straight shooter with several different bullet weights. one day i took two bucks walking the beach in front of my boat. both good shots but one bullet landed in the hide of the off side. you know, that old wives tail about dumping all the energy? anyway, i dumped that rifle and got a 338 wm. had to be real careful with it, because it would turn meat to jello as it passed though. can't imagine what would have happened if ALL the energy had stopped inside that animal. and when i was tip-toeing past a FRESH bear den with recent grading improvements at the entrance, i looked at the tiny hole in the barrel and recalled the recent story of the hunter jumped by a bear, got one shot off with a 300wm, about in the mouth, before the bear started dissecting the hunter. his buddy went looking for a cell-phone signal and connected to a rescue helo, by which time the bear had retired from her fit and her victim was bleeding out. but the good part of the story is that they got the hunter to a hospital in time to save his life. the lesson i learned is that 300, 338, whatever, is NOT a good bear stopper because the bullets are, or were in the century i was sorting this stuff out, too frangible and would break up because of the high muzzle velocity. this is one of the things that might indicate 30-30 is OK at close range because the bullets aren't over-driven. I started asking around and the guy across the street only hunted with a 45/70/405 and thought it was a dandy setup, so i tried it and it's my SE Alaska hunting gun. shooting heavy-for-caliber 525gr hard cast bullets from BEARTOOTHBULLETS, which i settled on by shooting lots of water jugs with lots of different bullets, and selecting the one that gave me the best penetration with the least bullet damage.

i don't claim it's right for everyone, but a friend took some of those rounds and shot a mountain goat on kodiak island, or one near there. it was a longish shot out of his guide gun, i forget how far, but the hide is warm when dozing on it.

so, is 525gr enough? more than enough? IDK. I met a guide in Juneau that had to stop a bear after the client annoyed it. bear was circling back to eat the shooter and guide shot it crosswise thru the pelvis, taking out both leg joints, and anchoring the bear for the kill shot. with a 500 something bullet in his guide gun.

this is how i got to where i'm at with 45/70 loads. i fed my family with venison and fish. i needed a gun that can stop an aggressive bear, and make meat. that 525gr bullet will punch round holes in deer bones and as they say, "you can eat right up to the hole." as for brer bear, i've never had to shoot one.

i started out with cast shooting 325gr 44 mag from a 10" SBH, which is all the deer gun anyone would ever need unless you live in a place where the shots are routinely hundreds of yards. but that's a tale for a different topic.

lightest bullets i've shot from my 45/70s is 325 gr, which cracks me up because i just ask myself why. and so it goes.
Screenshot (5256).png
this is the 525gr bullet that stopped in jug # 12 . i'm satisfied with it.
.
Screenshot (5255).png
this is the shot. note that the plank is in the air above the rails. suggests to me a massive amount of hydraulic down force on the plank. 1440fps.
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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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Well, shooting Grizz's 525 grain bullet at that velocity will certainly wake you up more than a full cup of Turkish coffee! :lol:

I'm pretty similar to my Brother Grizz in that I prefer heavier for caliber bullets as well. There are pro's and con's to both high velocity and heavier slower bullets. I generally try to use loads that I design for long range target shooting first and hunting second. For long range target shooting heavier and slower is a proven formula provided you have the sights to make it work. For hunting at short range, either HV or slow heavy bullets can often work although that is going to depend on the bullet's performance at what velocity it was designed for, and what terminal velocity you are actually using it at. It's all too easy to over-generalize the slow vs fast thing.

I'm a little dubious about using hard cast lead bullets in life or death situations on big boned, dense critters as they can shatter. I have seen something similar when I fired a Cast Performance 360 grain bullet into a box of copy paper at 2000 fps at the muzzel out of my Puma 454 Casull and it shattered. My 316 grain Mt. Baldy Punch bullet penetrated much further and looked like I could reload it again. So personally, I would prefer a monolithic flat nose solid for hunting or animal self-defense and an expanding one like a Barnes for hunting.

The HV stuff for hunting can make meat into jello but again, it is bullet and cartridge dependent. Sometimes it is better to slow a bullet down some for more reliable terminal ballistics. Even Barnes bullets can shear off the petals when driven to the high end of their velocity rating. There have been some tests done that show how slower bullets penetrated further than the higher velocity rounds in the same caliber/cartridge as well.

Might be a reason so many, many buffalo were slaughtered with slow velocity, very heavy lead bullets that would travel from end to end through a buffalo. That history supports what Grizz is saying 100%. That being said, in a life or death animal self-defense situation against a very thick boned and muscular critter on steroids, where you can't pick your shot? I would vote monolithic flat nosed solid. copper or brass.

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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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Aww, thanks Ray! I already have more than a few of the 300 grain WN Lehigh ones to try out. They were the closest ones I could find to the original Mt. Baldy Punch bullet in weight and shape.

Wow, it does look like Beartooth may have gone under??? That is terrible!!!!

Thank you for the links my friend! I also have bullets from your other links to try, but in different calibers.

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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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I think that people tend to try to push bullets way too fast for their best performance.

I like a heavy bullet at moderate velocities in a big bore gun. Like the Government Bullet in the .45-70 at a muzzle velocity of 1100 fps. Kills very well and nothing I have shot with it took more than a couple of steps. My .50-70 Gov't is also a real killer without a great deal of velocity or a bullet that is shaped like some folks think they need. Both of these just punch a straight hole through just about anything and the results speak for themselves. Nothing can stand up to that kind of punishment.

I shoot 250-290 gr flat point bullets in my .44 and .45 caliber sixguns (Keith or LFN), but I keep them at 900-1000 fps and they seem to do just fine without beating me up. They pick up a few feet per second in a levergun, but I don't shoot them fast enough to over stress the bullet.

The .357 can benefit from velocity because it simply cannot match the mass of the bigger bore bullets. A 158-180 grain jacketed bullet seems to work fine, but I would not want to get up beyond 180 grains. I don't think you can push a .358 diameter 180 gr WFN fast enough in the .357 to cause bullet failure and that bullet has been a sure killer for me.

However, I think I could easily go the rest of my life shooting a 158 gr XTP over 14 gr of 2400 in either rifle or revolver and never have any difficulty.
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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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with BTB it's the alloy. Marshall's is the best I've ever tested, and his bullet does hold up to close in impacts. one of my test for cast is the hammer test. on concrete. that's more pressure than the bullet will ever encounter against an animal.

Marshall's is the best.

the other test is into firewood. seasoned douglas fir 24+ inch diameter rounds. some cast bullets shatter. Marshall's may smear some, but stop essentially intact shooting cross grain. with the grain they just emigrate to the next county.

The ones i really like are the 405gr 44 mag bullets. same truncated cone shape. abt 950fps i think...

If anyone is worried about dumping enough energy, review the jug shot above. it levitated the plank off of the bed rails. i jumped on that plank to see if i could levitate it, and i couldn't deflect it enough to bounce it.

the point is that that load takes deer with no collateral damage to the meat. but offers actual stopping power. i think that to get anything more potent at that velocity i would have to lathe turn bullets from brass or copper round bar.

Tutt:
Cast Performance 360 grain bullet into a box of copy paper at 2000 fps at the muzzel out of my Puma 454 Casull and it shattered.
i've never driven a cast bullet that fast. i had a 425 gr round that i tested at 1700, approx, but never recovered it, and don't use it. but i would try the hammer test on the CP 325 and the other bullets you use in the 454. i don't try to crush the bullet, i use an easy swing letting the hammer do the work, like planishing on the anvil, and increase force gradually. even when I was shortening the bullets, the alloy didn't fracture or crumble.

gotta go, have a great day Y'all
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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

Post by AJMD429 »

.

I know the initial question was more about deer hunting than bear defense, but I recall a story or some wildlife professional or guide had a 7 mm Remington Magnum semi-automatic, and I believe got off five or six shots before the bear eventually stalled out.

If you look at the energy delivered by a 7 mm magnum, it is impressive and incredible, and I think for a non-aggressive animal you can probably count on it not running far in terms of retrieval, although the comments about meat destruction certainly would apply.

On the other hand when you are more interested in instantly incapacitating something versus a reasonably humane kill, the experience of many big game hunters and people in the military and law enforcement seems to be that a large heavy projectile is best, providing you can place it accurately. As minor a detail as it seems, the presence of a 'wide meplat' seems to make a difference as well. (... a long time ago I told my wife she had a big effect on me because she had a wide meplat... Fortunately she didn't have any weapons on her at the time... :lol: ).

All this does make a person wonder that if all else being equal in terms of the weight of the gun and the energy and the shot placement, that it is better to shoot a grizzly bear with a 45-70 then a 7 mm Magnum, is there any reason that it would be the other way around when shooting less aggressive game...? Probably not.
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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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Big bullets must be better. Naval guns kept going up in diameter and weight during the early to mid 20th century in an attempt to have longer range and greater terminal effect on targets.

These increases were often no more than an inch in and sometimes less. And as main armament went up in size previous smaller caliber guns were removed.

Personally, I believe, for my uses, rifles should be at least .30 caliber and handguns.40 caliber.

As to pistol caliber lever guns, we really no longer “need” to carry a common cartridge in both long and short guns.

With all that said, I don’t intend to give up any of my pistol caliber lever guns. Why? Because need and ballistics has nothing to do with it. It’s all about want😎😎
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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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"Personally, I believe, for my uses, rifles should be at least .30 caliber and handguns.40 caliber."

I totally agree with that sentiment! Even my break barrel Hatsan pellet rifle is 30 caliber! :lol: -Tutt
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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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Ray wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:09 pm Re. so-called "Piledrivers" etc. Again I ask, where are you going to get them ? No current website or contact info. All the social media intimates that beartooth bullets is defunct.....
from stock. i dollar cost average into consumables. Matts bullets look promising, but i haven't started testing them. he is down to a two week lag. i bought several samples of each 50 bullet he casts for comparison purposes for when i have some time to spare. LOL
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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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Ray wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:09 pm Re. so-called "Piledrivers" etc. Again I ask, where are you going to get them ? No current website or contact info. All the social media intimates that beartooth bullets is defunct.....
I have no problem making my own.
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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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https://www.shootersforum.com/forums/

this is the forum that developed around Marshall's bullets. lots and lots of opinions and facts in these topics. some of those guys have gone west already. times fly.
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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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wvfarrier wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 6:06 pm Im tempted to try some

https://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php? ... 479m1udjh3
looks real good, go for it... maybe some 405 gr.for comparisons.... that was a standard loading in the original trapdoor i think.

I have thought that 475gr might possibly be a sweet spot for my 45/70s. half-way between piledriver light and piledriver. i'd have to chop some 525gr bullets to get the weight, load 'em over the 525gr powder load and see what happens.

I base this on a baseless hunch and the fact that all my 45/70s liked the 460gr rounds i loaded. just a guess i guess.

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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

Post by OldGunny »

I guess I should have waited a bit before I posted the answer to my question is right there

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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

Post by wvfarrier »

It took me a while to remember the name but there is also Jae-bok "crater" bullets
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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

Post by CowboyTutt »

A couple of thoughts. 1) The "alphabet bullets" work great for hunting and short range but not at long range and 2) they were designed for ease of casting. Also, Matt is the man who will be casting my custom bullets using my moulds in the future. His customer service and response time is 1st class and I would highly recommend him to anyone.

Regards,

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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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wvfarrier wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:16 pm It took me a while to remember the name but there is also Jae-bok "crater" bullets
http://www.crater4570.com/
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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

Post by CowboyTutt »

Wow, those look extremely promising! If he could make some smaller in 452 diameter, I might be interested as well. -Tutt
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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

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I used to own a Lyman 35 cal 215 grain SWC GC mold , it’s my understanding originally it was made for the silhouette crowd to use in the 357 MAX . I however used it in 357 MAG Marlin’s and it worked quite well on silhouettes and paper . Sorry to say never plunked a deer with it . In the Marlin 336-44 rifles I used up to 325 grain GC mold that was sort of a takeoff of my design based on the Ranch Dog molds . Originally that one was designed for the 444 Marlin but I tried it in the 44 Mags after I saw how well they did with the RD 432-309GC . Now I will say in that 20” micro barrel that 325 grain bullet was just ever so slightly beginning to yaw on paper at 100 yards , but not enough to hold me off from plunking a deer out to say 125 yards . I never tried that 325 grainer in a Marlin 1894 44 Mag . I had an 1894P 44 Mag for awhile that I killed a few deer with using jacketed , wish I’d still had it when I got that 325 grain mold .
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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

I used to cast my own bullets. Shortly after my divorce, when I was living in an apartment and had nothing better to do, I would sit out on the balcony and cast bullets into the night. Since I decided to change my life around, I have been much more successful at most things. But I do not have much time for casting bullets it seems. So I buy them from Montana Bullet Works.
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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

Post by Bronco »

I find that casting bullet is more meditative than reloading! AND boy do I need it to help find my center ! I am still looking for it! Of course prayer is a strong source for that also.
Gettin old ain't for sissies!
There just has to be dogs in heaven !
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JimT
Shootist
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Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:04 pm

Re: Mass vs velocity ?

Post by JimT »

For me my "specialty" bullets are normally ones that I can get molds for. For the 30-30 the heavy RCBS mold is an excellent one. I have used it on the White Buffalo at The Whittington Center in Raton, NM. At almost 1130 yards it presents a fun challenging target for the old levergun.

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Ray
Advanced Levergunner
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Re: Mass vs velocity ?

Post by Ray »

Deleted.
Last edited by Ray on Sat Jan 01, 2022 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
m.A.g.a. !
alnitak
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1775
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:13 am
Location: Virginia

Re: Mass vs velocity ?

Post by alnitak »

Ray wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:09 pm Re. so-called "Piledrivers" etc. Again I ask, where are you going to get them ? No current website or contact info. All the social media intimates that beartooth bullets is defunct.....
Try Randy Garrett Hammerheads (I know they are cartridges and not bullets, but still very good.)
"From birth 'til death...we travel between the eternities." -- Print Ritter in Broken Trail
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