Just about fed up with Winchester

[wvfarrier]

I have a Win 1886 Deluxe Takedown (#24 of 201). It will not chamber anything larger than 250 grains. Winchester, however, swears its "within spec" after 2 visits. Ive contacted a couple different gunsmiths but none of them can look at it for a YEAR!!!

[Bronco]

What cartridge ?
Just curious .

[crs]

Very odd.
My Miroku/Winchester 1886 TD chambers from 300 to 500 grain ammo. That is all that I have tried. I have shot a lot of 45-70 Winchester Gold 300 grain Nosler ammo. Also lots of handloads with 450 grain North Fork and Punch bullets. Also North Fork 350 SS Handloads in hand loaded 45-70 and 45-90 ammo. Also 45-90 hand loaded Nosler PP at 2200 fps.

What bullets are you hand loading OR what commercial ammo does not work? Hand loads aside, if common commercial 300 grain ammo will not work, you may have a mechanical problem.

[wvfarrier]

Ive tried a variety of both factory and reloads. Winchester says its functioning properly and within specs.

[Sixgun]

The Jap rifles are notorious for having a non existent lead but that should not prevent you from chambering normal ammo.

Have you shot this rifle? If not, slug the bore and if it's .458 +-.001, then you have a bullet ogive issue. I've never heard of this before so I believe you may be frustrated and have given up....

Will it chamber an empty case? Look down the bore from both ends and see what you have using a small mirror that you can grind down. Oh, it's a takedown....forget the mirror.....pop it off and start inserting brass, loaded ammo, whatever....

Give it a look-see.......pull the bullet on a factory loaded round, dump the powder and see if the case slides in......

There is a simple solution and one that even I'm confidant of without even seeing the rifle....Miroku right?

I don't pay attention to foreign made guns but the Japs have it down right...every gun is factory fired....---006

[wvfarrier]

Correct its a Miroku.

[GunnyMack]

Get some CERROSAFE from Brownells and do a chamber cast. That will tell you exactly whats going on with chamber specs.
I'm sure they checked the head space, whether or not they shot it/ checked with dummy rounds is another story. Its quite possible the leade is short...

[Sixgun]

Get some CERROSAFE from Brownells and do a chamber cast. That will tell you exactly whats going on with chamber specs.
I'm sure they checked the head space, whether or not they shot it/ checked with dummy rounds is another story. Its quite possible the leade is short...

You got that one Gunny.....don't even think Miroku's even have a leade......rifling starts at the end of the chamber....I had a SRC 45-70 which I gave my son.

Near every bullet I've ever experimented with in my life will chamber IF seated to COL. If you notice ......for example....30 caliber bullets will have an ogive that measures .299-.301. Bore rider designs in cast bullets are usually .301 to just kiss the lands.....

That's why I suggested inserting a resized case in the chamber.....chamber mouth may be extra ordinarily tight so maybe a thin case with a .457 diameter bullet will work in his chamber....you know, eliminate the variables.

There's NOTHING more challenging than getting an antique rifle made in the 1870-1895 (or so) period to shoot accurately, consistently, along with absolute dependability due to black powder tolerances.

-------006 and 3/4's

[Blaine]

FWIW, My '86 would not chamber 45-70 with an OAL that worked perfectly in two different Marlins. I had to seat the bullet a couple RCHs deeper than normal. Try not crimping a dummy round and see if will seat. Go from there. Of course you already know that the pressure will go up seating it deeper.
A buddy had a different set of brass for his, and his #1.

[Grizz]

Try not crimping a dummy round and see if will seat

this is interesting. i thought my chamber was too tight, until i realized the dummy round had not been resized, and the fat bullet didn't fit. what I've read about the miroku chamber is that they are machined EXACTLY according to the official chamber drawing. . .

[Blaine]

Try not crimping a dummy round and see if will seat

this is interesting. i thought my chamber was too tight, until i realized the dummy round had not been resized, and the fat bullet didn't fit. what I've read about the miroku chamber is that they are machined EXACTLY according to the official chamber drawing. . .

I wonder if the Marlins were off?

[hfcable]

the throats are often made to minimum SAAMI specs. have seen this before. with a throating / finishing reamer you can do this job by hand: remove a little, try your cartridges, check with a headspace gauge , do a little more, etc and you will shortly have the problem solved.

it was fairly common when miroku made them for browning years ago, and i still hear about the same problem fairly often.

[wvfarrier]

Thats what the gunsmith I spoke to today said as well. Winchester says their chambers are meant for the original 405 grain tapered lead projectile and thats it.

[hfcable]

Thats what the gunsmith I spoke to today said as well. Winchester says their chambers are meant for the original 405 grain tapered lead projectile and thats it.

which is their cop out way of saying we sorta screwed up but we wont admit it

[Grizz]

Try not crimping a dummy round and see if will seat

this is interesting. i thought my chamber was too tight, until i realized the dummy round had not been resized, and the fat bullet didn't fit. what I've read about the miroku chamber is that they are machined EXACTLY according to the official chamber drawing. . .

I wonder if the Marlins were off?

good question. i would like to see a "library" of chamber casts. i think the miroku 44s might also have an abrupt chamber end, not sure, but it looks like that on mine.

after I used live rounds for testing, they slid right into the chamber. that was on the old cast performance 460Gr. a bullet weight my 45s like to shoot, but don't chamber well.

[jmiller]

If you actually pull up the SAAMI specs for the 45-70 you’ll find that there is about zero leade in the drawing. I own/owned three Winchester/Miroku 45-70s and they are all made to spec. That’s just the way they are…and it’s an easy “fix” if you want a longer leade. All of my guns are well made and incredibly accurate. Two of them will shoot sub 1moa at 100 yards with several different loads. Even my 1886 will shoot five shots into 1.3-1.7 inches at a measured 114 yards (my deck to backstop). These are not “wallet groups”, they are repeatable. All three of those guns had virtually no leade and would not chamber several different bullets I wanted to use. Example: Hornady 350g and Rem 405g bullets. I took the guns to a very reputable gunsmith (Turnbull) who lengthened the leade about .250” and the guns shot better than ever and fed any bullet I choose. FWIW, all three barrels were slugged and were nearly identical at .4565-.4570”. You’ve got a great gun that just needs a minimal amount of correction to become a GREAT gun. Don’t give up, it’s a simple fix.

[Grizz]

Turnbull) who lengthened the leade about .250”

did he taper that cut?

[jmiller]

Turnbull) who lengthened the leade about .250”

did he taper that cut?

I have no clue. Based on their reputation, and seeing other Turnbull guns being shot, I just let them work their “magic” without my oversight. They said they would use their custom reamer on the gun and I let them work their magic. They did two guns for me, an 1885 and an 1886. Both were Winchester/Miroku guns and both ended up shooting groups that were beyond my expectations. Might add that their CCH finish came out superb also. Not only look great, but shoot great also. My 1886 will shoot five shot groups between 1.3” and 1.7” at a measured 114 yards on a regular basis. The 1885 shoots sub 1moa with several different loads…it’s the least fussy gun I’ve ever loaded for. My preferred bullets are Rem 405g JSP. They haven’t been available for several years now, but I bought 1,500 of them right after I got the guns. I’m in good shape for a while since I only plink with them on occasion.

[Grizz]

thanks for the info. will ask what the chamber reamer looks like. glad your guns are straight shooters. that's a good thing! I like 405 Gr also. and 525.... and i suspect there is a sweet spot around 475 Gr. someday i'll shorten the 525s to 475 gr and see how they fly . . .

Regards,

[crs]

Never a problem with my Miroku 1886 45-90 TD which also feeds and shoots 45-70 well.- either with commercial or handloaded ammo. I have even fired the factory 500 grain Sharps 2.4 ammo and it works.


Saving the rest of the box of 500 grainers for my 45-90 DR now being crafted from my 45-70 DR. My test loads for that dude look like FUN! If all goes well, I will post results.