.44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

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Carlsen Highway
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.44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by Carlsen Highway »

OK - I did it! After years of thinking I needed a munitions factory to put a crimp under the base of a .44-40 bullet just like the factory ammo has, I have done it with a $8.00 pipe cutter.

This has been a goal of mine because the crimp on .44-40 ammo is weak because of the thin brass at the case mouth, and if you go hunting with your lever rifle, you have to load ammo in and out of the rifle every day, and after shunting the cartridges back ten times just about all of the case mouth crimps will fail and the bullets will pop back inside the cases. After three days of hunting - you've got no ammo left!
With black powder or bulk smokeless loads this is not a problem, the bullet is supported by the powder itself. So I mostly have hunted with blackpowder .44-40, or with a bulk load of smokeless consisting of H4198 or RE7. Which are good loads in themselves and solved my problem, but it always nagged at me that all the ammo manucfactures of .44-40 crimped under the bullet, Winchester, Remington, Union, Imperial Kynoch...they all did it. If I wanted to use fast smokeless powders I needed a good crimp. The faster powders also are the ones I use to make high velocity loads too, such as H4227.

Well I managed to pull it off using a little cheap pipe cutter that cost me $8.00. The idea came to me a little while back, but I thought, that will never work. Last night I thought I would try it anyway.

Here are some examples pictured - on the left are normal cartridges with a Lee crimp die crimp in the case mouth, on the right are crimped both at the case mouth and under the bullet.

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These cartridges are loaded with 10 grains of Universal which gives around 1300 fps with a 240 grain bullet. There is enough space in the cartridge to hide another bullet in there, so if the crimp is going to fail these would be good contenders. I cycled these cartridges through a full tube magazine load of ten rounds making sure they were the first ones loaded in, meaning they would get shunted back through the magazine the most times, shock loading the bullet each time as another cartridge is lifted up into the action. I did this twice, which is enough to cause the failure of any case mouth crimp. They all survived with no movement! This was a success.
Now I had to shoot them and see how much trouble this sharp crimp into the body would cause the shell case itself. Perhaps it might crack at this point when I shot it. Perhaps it would not survive multiple loadings.

I went to the range and shot off my body-crimped cartridges: I shot a group at 50m just to check that nothing else was affected and got a decent group, fairly typical for this carbine with open sights and smokeless loads -

Image

You can see here my cheap little pipe cutter. I filed the cutting wheel a little to blunt it a bit before proceeding. I had this pipe cutter for turning .30/06 brass into 7x57 brass - resizing and then I shorten the necks before trimming properly. I remembered when cutting cartridges case in this way that first it dents and crimps thin brass before it actually begins to cut. Hence my idea that it might work crimping the body of a case.

The cases themselves after firing look normal, some have a light score mark where the crimp was located. This may disappear when I resize them. But I am thinking if I can get three of four loadings out of them then they would be alright for the high velocity loads, which are all loads with smaller amounts of fast powder that do not fill the case. With a robust crimp like this I can now take these loads hunting.

I am quite pleased with myself, its taken me over ten years to figure this out and would never have believed I could have done it so well or as simply as this.
Last edited by Carlsen Highway on Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by .45colt »

Great Idea ! Thanks for the post. :D .
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by Carlsen Highway »

I am only sorry I can't tell John Kort about it, he would have appreciated this.
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by .45colt »

Your right about that. John would have most likely used the idea. I asked Him some questions about the 44-40 years ago and He sent Me a load of information. Great Guy.
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by M. M. Wright »

Outstanding! Thanks Carlsen, the main reason I like shooting black powder is to prevent set back bullets. Getting too old to hunt much but will get the 73 SRC out soon.
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by OldWin »

Pretty slick idea! Glad you solved your issue.

I've been lucky with both 38 and 44wcf. Never had the issue. I use a LFC die with good success.
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by AJMD429 »

Did you modify the pipe cutter?
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by earlmck »

Hah! Pretty dang slick Carlsen.

I'm a "stuff-it full" fellow normally to avoid that setback but I'm surely going to stick that one in my bag of tricks.
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by Bryan Austin »

:o :shock: :mrgreen:

NICE!!!
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by Sixgun »

"Necessity is the mother of invention"......love it Carlsen!.......although I've used a Pacific bullet canneluring [sic?] tool for such endeavors, yours makes a lot more common sense, especially in the "saving bucks department".

Think......I've used my Pacific tool for crimping the case mouths on old cartridges when such tools did not exist when I played with them. .....yes, for obvious reasons blunt the edge at least to .015......at the price those things cost, buy several and blunt them to different diameters for different needs.

Sure the loading tool manufacturers know of such tricks but like my Kubota dealer who charged me $532 for a $29 safety switch, they are not going to tell you......----006
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by wvfarrier »

Thats danged clever!!!
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by Carlsen Highway »

AJMD429 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:59 am Did you modify the pipe cutter?
I just filed the edge of the cutting wheel of the tool a bit, just so it is less likely to cut...not very much though so far, I was impatient to try it out. ideally I should file it some more as Sixgun says, so its more wider.

I measured the OAL of the bullet with calipers - it seems you dont have to be too exact about exactly where teh crimp goes on the case - for example I measured the overall length of the Speer Deep Curl 240 g at .686, I figured I had to leave a little bit of room for the curve of the crimp I was applying to form, if you know what I mean, so I guessed a distance and etched a mark on the case .715 down from the top of the bullet and put my crimp in there on each case. Not very scientific, but anyway, I was right because none of the bullets moved back at all.

You dont need much effort on the pipe cutter to make your "crimp"", and also, I dont think you can go round more than once, or there is the risk it will start to cut rather than just bend the brass in.

I see I have made it sound trickier than it is. It really isn't.
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by Sixgun »

Carlsen,
Get a drill or Dremel tool and insert a sanding drum or fine grinder.......hold it lightly against the wheel of the pipe cutter and let her spin. Just take off the sharp edge....an absolute must......

Here is a picture of my dusty CH bullet canneluring tool.....fully adjustable ....I put this in a vise and run out the bullets, cases, or loaded ammo as fast as I insert it and turn the crank. It'll leave that knurled look on and its depth is determined by how hard "you hold it in". ----006

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Last edited by Sixgun on Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by Carlsen Highway »

Sixgun, thats a great set up...
I just finished doing what you said just now! I bluntened that wheel down, and am jus tin the middle of doing some more cartridges, and found that I can now easily adjust the depth of thecrimp same as you have said by tightening my wheel up a bit or less as I do it, to get it just right. So things are going even better now!
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Six, that looks like the tool now sold by CH4D. I liked it better than the Corbin cannelure tool.
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by Sixgun »

Great, Carlsen......and as the truckers say..."keep on truckin'". If you playing with the old cartridges long enough and have a quiet setting where your thoughts are to yourself, your not pushed by others......, you would amazed at the "redneck ingenuity" you can come up with. :D

When I first started in the early seventies we HAD to use redneck ingenuity....the only way to get cases for the old cartridges was to make them from others or hopefully find old brittle cases. As Jim T and his dad started way before me, they really had to use redneck ingenuity.......heck, I was 18 years old and didn't know nothing, had no mentors, all the while going into one of the hardest fields of reloading.

Ya know Bill...I believe there is a CH stamped somewhere on this tool.....I didn't even specifically buy it.....came in a box of junk at a gun auction but has come in mighty handy.....even for crimping ....its like an "every caliber Lee factory crimper.".....but for long bullets it takes a small amount of "rednecking" by making a spacer.
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by Bryan Austin »

Well "I'll be a suck-egg mule"....nice!!!!!
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Carlson, we gotta put this on the website!!!
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by Carlsen Highway »

Is that one you did?
Yes OK - do you want me to rewrite it?

You can have an article I did on hunting with the Uberti '73 44-40 too if you like.
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by Sixgun »

I was playing around to see if I could do it with the bullet canneluring tool. Had to add a washer then wring em out as fast as you can turn the crank......your way is much cheaper though and does the same job.....

I'm an incurable experimenter.....I've never had that issue....with the bullets going in the case......always used the proper expander along with a Lee factory crimp die.......probably 15-20K in the 44-40 in a multitude of rifles and handguns, some with stiff mag springs.

In the Merwin & Hulbert and a '94 Marlin, both of which have tight bores I have to size .427.....everything else gets .430 and one 1873 gets .431.

Always liked the 44-40...been shooting it regularly since 1974.----006

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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by Carlsen Highway »

Sixgun, that's really cool. I bet that's how they do it at the factory only automaticalized.

My problems with the crimp come from hunting, because at the range its not really an issue. If I load up ammunition and then take them to the range and shoot them, there is usually no problem, crimped with the Lee crimp die they will survive a single trip through the magazine mostly, or maybe just with a little bit of setback.

My problem comes from loading and unloading the rifle multiple times when I are out hunting, when I come back to camp in the evenings. The "shunting" action as the cartridges all come back in the mag tube as one is lifted up into the action is what would set the bullets back inside the cases if you did it enough.

When I am out hunting on my own, I used to just leave the .44-40 loaded overnight for that reason. But its no fun to worry if your ammo is getting unreliable when you might be a couple of days walk from the roadend.
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by Sixgun »

Carlsen,
It's a rather simple solution but one that many overlook. It mostly prevalent in the 32-20 cartridge with the 38-40 and 44-40 less so.

On cases that are thin, use an expander that's .002 under the bullet you are using....or none at all......use a Lee universal expander that only bells the mouth......I keep a 50 caliber BMG bullet on my loading table....insert the bullet into the empty case and just tap it with a light hammer.

I'd rather have a loaded case with a bulge that works than a nice looking case that don't.

Resize an empty case and measure the inside diameter at the mouth.........then measure your expander plug on your die....should be .002 under the diameter of the bullet you are using.....if not, chuck it in a drill and spin it holding sandpaper against the plug until you bring it down a bit....then polish it the best you can....

Sometimes the sizer itself is not doing its job and was cut oversized.....

It's all simple mechanics but we all tend to rely on the manufacturers specifications on the dies they are manufacturing. Remember, they have to make their dies to fit a multitude of different rifles and handguns.--------006 (double O Six :D )
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by Drawdown »

This is good stuff! Only reloaders that I'd say better than you'll? The Old longhunters, mountainmen, who's lives depended on every load, whether it was in wild, or shooting match! I've only read about em, but they where in fact, reloading specialists! Alvin York, Ned Robert's some of the last. Right or wrong, this is interesting!
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by Carlsen Highway »

Sixgun wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:24 pm Carlsen,
It's a rather simple solution but one that many overlook. It mostly prevalent in the 32-20 cartridge with the 38-40 and 44-40 less so.

On cases that are thin, use an expander that's .002 under the bullet you are using....or none at all......use a Lee universal expander that only bells the mouth......I keep a 50 caliber BMG bullet on my loading table....insert the bullet into the empty case and just tap it with a light hammer.

I'd rather have a loaded case with a bulge that works than a nice looking case that don't.

Resize an empty case and measure the inside diameter at the mouth.........then measure your expander plug on your die....should be .002 under the diameter of the bullet you are using.....if not, chuck it in a drill and spin it holding sandpaper against the plug until you bring it down a bit....then polish it the best you can....

Sometimes the sizer itself is not doing its job and was cut oversized.....

It's all simple mechanics but we all tend to rely on the manufacturers specifications on the dies they are manufacturing. Remember, they have to make their dies to fit a multitude of different rifles and handguns.--------006 (double O Six :D )

Sixgun, yes I get that idea. I did go down that way a little with the same thought, I swapped between using the expander from .44-40 dies which was for the .427 size, and .44 Magnum dies which was .429 to see what the difference is.
There is always something to test and try when Im reloading the .44 WCF. The only things I havnt done with it is make shotshells.
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by Sixgun »

Shot shells in the 44-40? I use those Speer plastic capsules.......don't even know if they make em anymore......and fill em with #11 shot......lacking #11 about anything will do. Can't remember the amount offhand but a dose of Unique or other semi fast powder works great.....I have a Marlin 1894 built in '96 that was factory chambered in 44-40 smoothbore.....very rare bird.....it's even choked.....it'll feed those Speer capsules like butter and is deadly on anything out to 15-20 yards.

Lacking the plastic shot capsules ill use about 6 grains of Bullseye or 7 of Unique, then a wad made from hard cardboard about like what primers come in.....then fill it with the shot of your choice then another wad at the top maybe 1/16" below the case mouth and add another wad..........after that I'll run the loaded case in any die that's smaller than the 44-40 to roll the case mouth in.....I like to fill up the remainder with elmers glue to hold it in better.....00
Last edited by Sixgun on Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by Bryan Austin »

Winchester depth seems to very.
mine (left), Winchester factory case component (center), Magtech (right)
243179823_391999059072929_9179864128697767576_n.jpg

Here is Winchester's 1903 High Velocity load.
164034740_3735458153236758_5089437226953622987_n.jpg
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by Sixgun »

I see em Bryan....notice the old original is less tapered which is why the wheel on the tubing cutter should be more blunted or for that matter, changed with some sort of a washer that's been smoothened out properly to duplicate the old 1903 WRACO round.

I don't like the look of the tubing cutter with an unaltered wheel....too sharp...but then again, I'm no engineer so it may be fine.--00
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by Carlsen Highway »

Bryan,

Your cartridges look just like mine. I have filed the wheel on my tool so its a flat rim.

THanks for posting the photo of the original high velocity load, I haven't seen one of those before.
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by marlinman93 »

Back in the late 1800's and early 1900's Ideal sold a "case indenter" tool for exactly this purpose. I've got one in my old reloading tool collection, and played with putting a indent line on a case to see how it worked. It's extremely time consuming, and doubt I'd do much of it, unless I had no other options. But it does work.
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by Carlsen Highway »

Hi Marlinman, could I trouble you to post a picture of the indenter tool you describe?
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Re: .44-40 Crimping under the Bullet

Post by Bryan Austin »

Carlsen Highway wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:52 am THanks for posting the photo of the original high velocity load, I haven't seen one of those before.
I have them over here:

1. https://sites.google.com/view/44winches ... authuser=0

2. https://sites.google.com/view/44winches ... authuser=0
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