44sp/44mag vs 44-40 lever in modern guns

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mickbr
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44sp/44mag vs 44-40 lever in modern guns

Post by mickbr »

Fellas with light powder charges what would your choice be between a 44 mag running 44 special brass and a 44-40? Main focus would be finding accurate loads around 1000-1200fps with 200-240 grain. Anything to suggest one will do better than the other? Anything else worth considering, brass life, cost?
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Re: 44sp/44mag vs 44-40 lever in modern guns

Post by Bill in Oregon »

While the sentimental favorite is the .44 WCF, the .44 SPL/Mag offers the advantages of more robust and widely available brass and the option to step things way up in power and or bullet weight.
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Re: 44sp/44mag vs 44-40 lever in modern guns

Post by 44shooter »

Not sure it makes much difference at 200 gr. and 1000 fps or below. I think the special/magnum offer much more flexibility in weight and velocity but at the specs you listed either would do. The WCF may give an edge in reliability and smooth feeding being a bottleneck.
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Re: 44sp/44mag vs 44-40 lever in modern guns

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

My .44 Special 1873 may not be "modern" but it sure is handy and I am using a Skeeter load (with a 250 gr LFN instead of a Keith) and I am very happy with it.

950 fps in a revolver so it should be a bit over 1000 fps in the rifle, though I have not chronographed it. Brass seems to last indefinitely and its easy to load on the Dillon.
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Re: 44sp/44mag vs 44-40 lever in modern guns

Post by earlmck »

At the ballistics you are talking obviously either cartridge will work totally fine. But I always give the nod to anything that processes with carbide size dies vs lube, even though the spray-on lube makes this a minor differential.
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Re: 44sp/44mag vs 44-40 lever in modern guns

Post by AmBraCol »

Straight wall, carbide sizer, more options for brass to reload - the balance tilts (in my opinion) towards the 44 Mag/SPL over the 44-40 for ease of reloading and available components. That being said, I've got a bunch of .427 jacketed bullets stored up, waiting for that special rifle to materialize. Someday, perhaps. Haven't reloaded 44 WCF since the early 90's...
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Re: 44sp/44mag vs 44-40 lever in modern guns

Post by black river smith »

mickbr wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 1:50 am Fellas with light powder charges what would your choice be between a 44 mag running 44 special brass and a 44-40? Main focus would be finding accurate loads around 1000-1200fps with 200-240 grain. Anything to suggest one will do better than the other? Anything else worth considering, brass life, cost?
Unlike some of the response that you have received already, I am going to say first off there are several factors that have to be considered in your above statement.
1. You state that these two cartridges are going to be used on "modern guns" -- What ones? I hope you know that modern repro's SAA and rifles (after about 2012) are presently bored at 0.429" for both calibers. That then means you are shooting the same diameter bullet with same weight out of two different cartridges. No real advantage in that situation depending on powder weight.
2. Shooting short OAL cartridges Spec/MAG in a pistol is not as much an issue as doing it in a rifle. Lead build up is the main concern here. A pistol cylinder can be scrubbed easier than a rifle chamber. Therefore that 44/40 would have the advantage here.
3. You state interest in loading a bullet weight range of 200 to 240 grains. The Lyman 49th Reloading Manual only lists reloading data for 200 & 205 grain bullets for 44/40's in both rifle and pistol sections. Therefore the 44 Spec would have the advantage.
4. Using the Lyman 49th Manual again, there are no light loads for either cartridge and any bullet weight that will reach the 1000fps range you desire in pistols. Rifle yes, but they only show loadings for the 44/40 in the rifle section, no 44Spec.
5. Now using my 30+ history of CAS and Cowboy website discussions about using straight walled cartridges in rifles having blow-back I would favor the 44/40 for use. I do own and used a 44Mag for my very early years in CAS then moved to a 44/40.
6. Also using my 30+ years of casting and reloading 44Mag, 44/40 -- I totally agree with Earlmck & AmBraCol that a carbide sizer on a straight walled casing is so much easier than the 44/40 preprep. The chooses of bullet weight with respect to desired use, also favors the 44Spec/Mag. Unlike others I hear, I have not had the issues of reloading 44/40, because I do not use a progressive press.

To me your biggest problem unless you already have one is --- finding the 44Spec rifle, so you don't have the lead build-up issue to contend with. The 44/40 rifles are more plentiful or available through the repro CAS dealers. I rarely ever shoot 44Spec in my 44Mag rifles but I do commonly download the 44Mag to 44/40 equivalent.

If it were me I would be putting a 44 Mag rifle / pistol downloaded cartridge into this comparison rather than a 44Spec. A 44Mag can easily handle an 8 grain load of Unique and a 200 -205 grain bullet which is the standard load for a 44/40 as suggested by Mike Venturino in Shooting Western Rifles books. He lists both the 44Mag and 44/40 with 8 grains in Modern Rifles hits the 1200+ fps marker. Lyman 49th Manuals for Pistols calls 8.0 grains on the high end for 44/40 and lower than suggested for 44Mag.

Hope this helps not hinders your thoughts and decisions.
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Re: 44sp/44mag vs 44-40 lever in modern guns

Post by mickbr »

Thanks for the replies fellas I think the 44 sp will get the nod at this stage.
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Re: 44sp/44mag vs 44-40 lever in modern guns

Post by mickbr »

Black river smith, probably a 1873 in 44 mag/,marked 44sp as Scott T above has. I dont think all the modern repros are .429 , be nice if they were. I heard the win/mirokus are slugging well over .430. I have 44-40 data for 240 grain and I'd tailor my own anyhow, but thanks for the point. One question on blowback with straight walled. I dont notice it with 38sp in my 357's. Is this is a more likely issue with 44sp/44mag in a lever gun and what are the effects of it? Inconsistent ballistics, or gas in the face? Gun will see service with jacketed bullets too, probably 200gn speer GDHP and red dot loads as it expands at low speed.
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Re: 44sp/44mag vs 44-40 lever in modern guns

Post by Bryan Austin »

Hard to beat the accuracy of the 44 Special
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Re: 44sp/44mag vs 44-40 lever in modern guns

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Re: 44sp/44mag vs 44-40 lever in modern guns

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

mickbr wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:03 pm Black river smith, probably a 1873 in 44 mag/,marked 44sp as Scott T above has. I dont think all the modern repros are .429 , be nice if they were. I heard the win/mirokus are slugging well over .430. I have 44-40 data for 240 grain and I'd tailor my own anyhow, but thanks for the point. One question on blowback with straight walled. I dont notice it with 38sp in my 357's. Is this is a more likely issue with 44sp/44mag in a lever gun and what are the effects of it? Inconsistent ballistics, or gas in the face? Gun will see service with jacketed bullets too, probably 200gn speer GDHP and red dot loads as it expands at low speed.
I'm shooting 7.5 gr of Unique though I would not hesitate to go to 8 gr if it showed any advantage. I'm not getting any blowback or gas in the face. In fact, the action stays remarkably clean.
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Re: 44sp/44mag vs 44-40 lever in modern guns

Post by mickbr »

thanks Scott and if you ever chrono that load let me know. Id be interested to see what its doing from the carbine barrel.
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Re: 44sp/44mag vs 44-40 lever in modern guns

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Re: 44sp/44mag vs 44-40 lever in modern guns

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Ray came through for us.

I had no idea it would be quite that high. But 1150 fps with a slug that heavy is certainly respectable.

I have shot up to 16 gr of 2400 in this gun, but it was not as accurate with the bullet I was using as the 7.5 gr Unique load.
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Re: 44sp/44mag vs 44-40 lever in modern guns

Post by black river smith »

mickbr wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:03 pm I dont think all the modern repros are .429 , be nice if they were. I heard the win/mirokus are slugging well over .430.
mickbr,

I guess I should have phased it differently to get the point across. My statement was not referring to repro's being bored accurately at 0.429, they are not, some way oversized. What I was trying to point out is that the 44/40 modern Uberti handguns and rifles are now being bored at the attempted Standard 44 size of 0.429 not the traditional bore size of 0.427, found in original firearms and many of the older modern repros'.

Example: My 2002 Uberti 1866; 2002 Uberti Cimarron OM SAA; & a1996 ASM New Dakota; are all bored at 0.427. I shoot cast bullets from an original Winchester mold through them. While a 2017 Uberti Stoeger 44/40 SAA has the 0.429 boring, which was fine for me, because I added a 44Spec cylinder, just to have a 44Spec SAA. This revolver shoots my standard 44/40 cartridges 2" low and the heavy 246 grains 44 Spec shoots 2" high. I did not make any changes to the sights because both sets were in very acceptable groupings.

PS -- The Uberti 1873 is a very nice rifle action. But good luck finding a 44MAG or 44Spec chambering.
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Re: 44sp/44mag vs 44-40 lever in modern guns

Post by mickbr »

black river smith wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 3:49 pm PS -- The Uberti 1873 is a very nice rifle action. But good luck finding a 44MAG or 44Spec chambering.
Already have, a friend has been offering to sell me his for a while. Just checked and its marked 44 mag.I thought it might have been 44sp with the 44 mag chamber like Scott T's.
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Re: 44sp/44mag vs 44-40 lever in modern guns

Post by mickbr »

Scott Tschirhart wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:50 am Ray came through for us.

I had no idea it would be quite that high. But 1150 fps with a slug that heavy is certainly respectable.

I have shot up to 16 gr of 2400 in this gun, but it was not as accurate with the bullet I was using as the 7.5 gr Unique load.
Whats the noise like Scott, that would be pretty mild I am thinking. Would be okay shooting around my dogs I am thinking( I dont like them absorbing the full blast of magnums)
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Re: 44sp/44mag vs 44-40 lever in modern guns

Post by buckeyeshooter »

mickbr wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:27 pm
black river smith wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 3:49 pm PS -- The Uberti 1873 is a very nice rifle action. But good luck finding a 44MAG or 44Spec chambering.
Already have, a friend has been offering to sell me his for a while. Just checked and its marked 44 mag.I thought it might have been 44sp with the 44 mag chamber like Scott T's.
Be careful with hot loads in 44 magnum in that 73. That is a toggle link gun and those links are not super strong. My 66 is in 44-40 and my 44 mags are a winchester 92 and a marlin 1894. I ain't that purdy, but I like having teeth. A hot magnum load in a 73 might mean losing some teeth. :o
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Re: 44sp/44mag vs 44-40 lever in modern guns

Post by mickbr »

Yep I'll only be running the loads I posted. That said I wouldnt have a problem running occasional factory 44mag in it. Uberti would have died under lawsuits by now if the guns were blowing up. Or rather the first time one did, the next production run would have said '44 special only' :)
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Re: 44sp/44mag vs 44-40 lever in modern guns

Post by Bryan Austin »

Scott Tschirhart wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:50 am Ray came through for us.

I had no idea it would be quite that high. But 1150 fps with a slug that heavy is certainly respectable.

I have shot up to 16 gr of 2400 in this gun, but it was not as accurate with the bullet I was using as the 7.5 gr Unique load.
Faster burning pistol powders seem to work better for me as far as accuracy with reduced loads rather than with slower burning rifle powders.
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Re: 44sp/44mag vs 44-40 lever in modern guns

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

mickbr wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:29 pm Whats the noise like Scott, that would be pretty mild I am thinking. Would be okay shooting around my dogs I am thinking( I dont like them absorbing the full blast of magnums)
Mild is exactly what it is with the Skeeter load. Very comfortable on the occasions when I have shot this carbine without hearing protection. I suppose that is why I thought it was not going that fast. It hits hard, but its easy on the ears.
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Re: 44sp/44mag vs 44-40 lever in modern guns

Post by buckeyeshooter »

mickbr wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:28 am Yep I'll only be running the loads I posted. That said I wouldnt have a problem running occasional factory 44mag in it. Uberti would have died under lawsuits by now if the guns were blowing up. Or rather the first time one did, the next production run would have said '44 special only' :)
I run 7 grains of unique under a 200 RNSP for Cowboy Action shooting. I run this in a 66 with a 19 inch barrel and it chronos 1040 fps. In a 92 with a 24 inch barrel it 1090 fps and in a Marlin 44 magnum 1894 it chronos 1050. So, for me, the chamberings are the same with these loads.
If I go to black powder 35 grains seals the case in 44-40 so no gunk in the action, but in the 44 magnum, you need 40 grains for no blowback of residue.
I am positive the uberti would handle the old 'medium load' fine in 44 magnum. In my marlin, 44 specials don't feed very well unless you load the bullet farther out to increase overall length, so I rarely use special cases. each rifle is different so yours might be fine with either. My best wishes for a great time with the new gun.
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Re: 44sp/44mag vs 44-40 lever in modern guns

Post by Bryan Austin »

I run this in a 66 with a 19 inch barrel and it chronos 1040 fps.
Replicates original Henry velocities
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Re: 44sp/44mag vs 44-40 lever in modern guns

Post by M. M. Wright »

My dilemma is with Winchester 73 SRCs in 44-40. I have an original made in 1896 I think, and a Miroku made in the last couple of years. BOTH of them slug .431. I like to shoot my Colt SAAs which have tight barrels and even tighter chamber throats. Naturally I want to use the same bullets/loads in both but you can't chamber a round loaded with any bigger than a .429 bullet in the Colts even with their .425 throats opened up to .430. Well, the throats have nothing to do with the chamber. Oh yeah, I shoot black, pretty much only black. My solution or compromise is to use a bullet cast from 30:1 and sized .429. They bump up pretty good in the SRCs and squeeze down in the Colts. An easier solution is to use a Uberti 73 which slugs .429. More accurate too. Wonder if the old time cowboys cussed about the ammo they bought to go in both their guns? Wonder what size bullet the old Winchester ammo had? I'm gonna go see if I can find an old 44-40 round in my stuff. I'll just pull the bullet and mike it.
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Re: 44sp/44mag vs 44-40 lever in modern guns

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

M. M. Wright wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:28 pm Wonder if the old time cowboys cussed about the ammo they bought to go in both their guns?
I think that they probably had nothing to compare to. I would be interested in seeing the results of your measurments.
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