Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

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Scott Tschirhart
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Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Yesterday’s post about EDC carrying of revolvers got me thinking. So I wanted to see if my experience is typical. I shoot revolvers and auto loading pistols generally on a weekly basis. I’ve carried both types as a police officer and later as a civilian. I think I shoot a revolver better than a comparable auto pistol. But I shoot the auto pistol more consistently. So I took these two guns out to the ranch with 50 rounds of my normal handloads for each.
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by wvfarrier »

I shoot a revolver better than any other but being a lefty there is only so fast I can reload. I have practiced for hundreds of hours but I am as fast at it as I will ever be and the reality is, I am twice as fast with an auto loader
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Scott Tschirhart
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

I stepped out of the Jeep and fired the eight rounds I had in the .45 at 25 yards. This is fairly typical for me. If I shoot 50 or 100 rounds, the group will get bigger but will stay centered on the plate.
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Then I fired my first seven rounds from the revolver. This is also typical of the first cylinder. But if I fire 50 or 100 rounds they will be all over the plate and I’ll even miss with some of them.
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Scott Tschirhart
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

I’m no expert with a pistol but I’m competent. I don’t understand why my revolver initially groups better but the groups open up quickly where the auto tends to shoot more consistently in my hands.
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by Grizz »

Scott, when i started shooting semi-autos i had to un-learn a lot of stuff. I hunted in Alaska for subsistence, and got consistent with long guns and a Ruger SBH.

But the hold, and stance i used for the revolver just did not work for me shooting the springfield xd in 9mm and 45. Also didn't work for shooting the 1911, so i had to pay attention to different stuff and pay a LOT MORE ATTENTION to the triggers, and my grip. My model 66 has the best SA trigger i've ever shot, and it just goes off at the right time all by itself. The SBH too. Never gave it a second thought, it read my mind. Not so with the autoloaders, not for me.

I don't know if any of this pertains to your experience. It's been more than a decade when i was shooting almost every day on fishing trips, so i am rustier than i once was. :lol:
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by Blaine »

Scott, are you shooting the revolver single, or double action?
I'm not as accurate with that long pull double action shot whether it's shooting a revolver or a double action only shooter.
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by OldWin »

I am much the same, but you shoot tighter than I do at 25yds. :D
For an auto, the 1911 or Commander, or LW Commander is usually my choice. It was the first auto I could shoot well, and have always shot better than anything else. Like you, I think the revolver is initially better, but the higher bore axis fatigues me faster for grip.
Unless there is NO way around it, I don't carry small guns anymore. When it's hot and sweaty, I carry a Glock 19. I don't shoot it as well as a 1911, but way better than a subcompact 9mm.
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by gcs »

X2, single or double action....

When I used to qualify, back in the revolver days, I got pretty good thumbing the hammer back with my left thumb and firing single action, double action was ok, but on a longish session trigger finger fatigue would cause double action to open up, I was shooting a Ruger security six, and even installed a lesser power trigger spring, but it still couldn't compare to single action.

Of course in a real world situation, it's those first six that really matters....
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by JimT »

For ME .. this does not apply to anyone else ... I found that switching from one type of handgun to another was not conducive to me shooting accurately. That's why until I passed 65 that I shot single action revolvers. I never practiced with a double action or a semi-auto, only single actions. For me I found I was much more competent that way.

As I got older I started losing dexterity in my fingers and thumbs and found I could not manipulate a single action revolver like I did when younger.

In the last 5 years I have "discovered" double action revolvers and the 1911 again and I am enjoying them. I just wish the manufacturers would quit making fuzzy sights!
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by AJMD429 »

Honestly, it looks like you do well enough with EITHER that you should feel comfortable with either.

The first few shots would be the ones that count, so I'd not worry if you start shooting less well after the first dozen shots with either gun; by then matters will have been settled, and if by remote chance not, you'll likely be behind cover and sort of hit your mental reset by then.

I know some of the best 'one-shot-stop' data is with 357 Mag 125 grain JHP's, but since I prefer 40 or 45 caliber so I can keep velocities low enough to minimize blast, for me the deciding factor is usually the width of the gun. I don't have to 'deep conceal' where I live, but a 44 or 45 caliber revolver is pretty wide and bulky, and even my smallest 45 ACP pistol (Para-P-12) holds 12 rounds of 45 ACP, and that is just so much more reassuring than the 5 rounds of similarly-powerful 44 Special out of a similarly-sized Charter Arms Bulldog. Plus, in general, I'm more likely to hit the target with the semiauto on the first shot.

I did time myself shooting 9mm and 45 ACP out of nearly-identical guns (both double-stack 1911's) and was faster at followups with the 9mm, so at present have settled on my old Taurus PT-92 for that reason. Plus I do like the de-tensioned spring vs. 'condition one' with the 1911's.
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by Lastmohecken »

I had a Taurus PT-92 for a while, once. And that thing was one of my most accurate 9mm's I believe I ever had. It was a great shooter, but it's a bulky gun and I never carried it on me for self-defense. I finally got to wanting something else and traded it off, but I wish I had kept it.

My favorite carry gun is a Colt 1911 lightweight Commander. I am comfortable carrying cocked and locked. But my main carry gun is an unmodified series 80 Colt, with probably a 4 pound plus trigger. I am very comfortable with it cocked and locked. Now, some of my match guns, with light triggers, not so comfortable carrying cocked and locked, because they have been tuned for a light trigger, and usually in series 70 configuration. I used to swear by the series 70 guns but for carry, I kind of like the series 80's a little better, but have some series 70 guns I will carry cocked and locked for CCW if I need to, just not my real light trigger match guns.
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by Sixgun »

You may not know it but somewhere, deep in your gray matter is a function, called "confidence".

Did you ever TRY to drive a car? No, you just get behind the wheel and go-to-town without thinking.

I have, and have tried every style of handgun shooting in silhouette competition......it ALWAYS comes down to
an N frame Smith & Wesson with factory finger groove target stocks fired single action that brings my best scores. Any other style I have to focus hard and when you have to focus, you lost that magic word, "confidence".

With an N frame Smith I just line up the sights and shoot, not much thinking.....
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by AJMD429 »

Sixgun wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:00 pm You may not know it but somewhere, deep in your gray matter is a function, called "confidence".

Did you ever TRY to drive a car? No, you just get behind the wheel and go-to-town without thinking.

I have, and have tried every style of handgun shooting in silhouette competition......it ALWAYS comes down to
an N frame Smith & Wesson with factory finger groove target stocks fired single action that brings my best scores. Any other style I have to focus hard and when you have to focus, you lost that magic word, "confidence".

With an N frame Smith I just line up the sights and shoot, not much thinking.....
Yeah I think something can be said for ‘whatever you have faith in’, and I’m betting 99% of gunfights are NOT decided by any inherent superiority of one platform or cartridge based another.

For that matter 99% of firearms self-defense instances supposedly don’t wind up with a shot fired.

Among the other 100 out of 10,000 where shots are fired, I bet strategy (gun in hand, and/or behind cover before action starts) and confidence (knowing - or rather, believing- the gun you have WILL hit the target and WILL work flawlessly), make 90% of the difference.

For those who have shot quite a few different guns, there are just some guns that for whatever reason (sometimes likely random chance successes - or failures - at the range or afield), you develop confidence (or lack of) in. Those are the ones you will do best with, odds are, regardless of whether in theory they are ‘better’, or some gunwrighter or gunslinger says they are best.

The poor dude whose only shooting experience is with their first gun, one picked for them by an experienced shooter, as ‘great for self defense and easy to conceal’ winds up with a little 9mm recoil-maker with rudimentary sights, puts a few painful rounds inaccurately downrange, and after that is too embarrassed to practice, so goes into battle not at all confident he (or she) will hit the target. That’s why I tell the newbie that they should get a mid-size 22 LR and put at least 1,000 rounds through it at easy-to-hit targets BEFORE they get their ‘real’ CCW gun. In fact, even if they just keep that 22 LR, by that time they would likely be better off with it than they would had they started off with the 9mm.
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by Alan Wood »

AJMD429 wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:59 pm Honestly, it looks like you do well enough with EITHER that you should feel comfortable with either.

The first few shots would be the ones that count, so I'd not worry if you start shooting less well after the first dozen shots with either gun; by then matters will have been settled, and if by remote chance not, you'll likely be behind cover and sort of hit your mental reset by then.

I know some of the best 'one-shot-stop' data is with 357 Mag 125 grain JHP's, but since I prefer 40 or 45 caliber so I can keep velocities low enough to minimize blast, for me the deciding factor is usually the width of the gun. I don't have to 'deep conceal' where I live, but a 44 or 45 caliber revolver is pretty wide and bulky, and even my smallest 45 ACP pistol (Para-P-12) holds 12 rounds of 45 ACP, and that is just so much more reassuring than the 5 rounds of similarly-powerful 44 Special out of a similarly-sized Charter Arms Bulldog. Plus, in general, I'm more likely to hit the target with the semiauto on the first shot.

I did time myself shooting 9mm and 45 ACP out of nearly-identical guns (both double-stack 1911's) and was faster at followups with the 9mm, so at present have settled on my old Taurus PT-92 for that reason. Plus I do like the de-tensioned spring vs. 'condition one' with the 1911's.
I have long suspected that the 357 Magnums one shot stopping power is more a matter of it being the most effective round that a Police officer or security guard who didn't do weekly range sessions with it could achieve effective shot placement with when fired from a revolver.
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by Sixgun »

Your absolutely right Doc......you have to FIRST gain confidence and that comes with an easy gun to shoot in a light caliber......it all come along the lines, "you have to learn to crawl before you can walk."

A mid sized double action revolver in 22 or 38 Spl. cant be beat......I learned on an old model Ruger Blackhawk in 357 shooting 38 Spl s.......anyone who hands a short semi auto to a novice is doing them a disservice.......a Ruger .22 is fine but no 3" Auto in 45 or 9.....even then I prefer to teach a newbie on a revolver with at least a 4" barrel shooting cans from 10' away, on the ground or against a dirt bank so they can see their misses.

Another mistake people often make is changing everyday carry guns.....Auto one week, small 38 another week, single action behind the back another......

Guns can feel stress...I know this 100%....that's why I always carry a revolver, the same one everyday.......

I let older people make their own choices after I try to guide them..their minds are fixed on the latest wiz bang Auto so I don't argue..that's their demise.....most of these guys brag about their $1500 Kimber but balk at the price of ammo for it.....they need to keep it all shiny.......you ought to see what my 642 looks like. :D ----006......people have been calling me "sixgun" for over 40 years and there's a reason for it.
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by Catshooter »

"winds up with a little 9mm recoil-maker with rudimentary sights, puts a few painful rounds inaccurately downrange, and after that is too embarrassed to practice" Or even worse, does the same thing with a tiny no-to-hardly-any sights .380! And they think they're armed & dangerous.


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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

I shoot at 25 yards because I shoot steel and that 2 inch hole in the middle of the plate is a great challenge for a pistol shooter at that range.

I try to put as many throuugh that hole and on the smaller plate as I can, though I realize that for defense purposes there is no need for such accuracy. I'm not really practicing for a gunfight....those days are long past. But I do shoot game animals and pests with a sixgun and I enjoy shooting just for the sake of shooting.

I'm thinking that one idea that was stated here may be the answer....it may be that the revolver puts the bore axis higher than the auto and it may be more torque on my hands and wrist than the auto.
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by Lastmohecken »

I think it is the shooter more then the gun, there is no magic handgun. When I was a teenager, my first gun handgun was a Ruger single six, and I literally wore that that gun out in about 3 years or so, and had to have it rebuilt, and about that time, I acquired a Smith and Wesson K22 and also wore it out and had to have it rebuilt. That's a lot of shooting, a lot of fast draws, and a lot of double action shooting with the K22, and a lot of small game and some not so small killed. By that time, I definitely had a lot of confidence with a K22 for anything. I really never felt under gunned.

Then I went through a progression of larger caliber handguns, mostly all revolvers for a few years, and started shooting NRA Hunter Silhouette and IPSC combat matches. Because I had shot the revolver so much, I moved up very quickly in the revolver division, and was shooting B Class almost from the start in IPSC. About that time I acquired my first 1911 for the main match. I moved into C class pretty quick and C class in NW ARkansas was pretty tough, as we had a lot of combat shooters. However, I found that the 1911 was harder to move up in the ranks with, then the revolver, but I had shot the revolver so much more, and was about as good shooting double action at about all ranges, as I was shooting single action.

But as time went on the 1911 became more natural and then when Concealed Carry become legal with the shall issue CCW laws that started sweeping the nation, in the late 80's, I started carrying CCW, and it didn't take long to figure out that most of my beloved large revolvers were a pain to carry CCW, but even the big 5" 1911 could be carried a lot easier concealed with a good IWB holster, then most other guns I tried. And then I went through a progression of handguns and holsters of all types, but always came back to the 1911, in particular the Lightweight Commander, which can be carried by me, in any weather, blistering hot, under a long tailed shirt to bitter cold under a jacket, and a vest for moderate weather.

Maybe it just comes to down to the right holster, and confidence in your chosen weapon. Carrying cocked and locked with the right 1911 doesn't worry me at all, but when I started out packing them, I was a little more concerned about it, but all of my 1911's at the time had real light triggers built for the combat games, and those guns I carried in condition three or some in condition 2, which all of the so called gun rag experts said was a no no, but really it depends on the particular weapon, what kind of hammer it has on it and proper practice and training. But when I finally got a decent Lightweight commander with a 4 pound trigger, I went to cocked and locked, that is the best way to carry one for fast and certain deployment.

If I wasn't going to carry a 1911, then my choice is a full sized Glock 40 cal, and I have found that I can carry it just as easy and shoot it better, then the smaller Glocks.
If I really want to drop down in size, the Smith and Wesson Shield works very well, and I have shot it in IDPA competition in it's class, and they can be shot very well.

I can shoot a 2" K frame 38 quite well but I find them to be more bulky and harder to carry CCW, and they are not that light, either. J frames are fine for what they are best at, and all of the smaller guns, some work better then others, and better then no gun at all, but I don't have a lot of confidence in them, and no brag, but I probably shoot them better then most people who choose to carry them.
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by Grizz »

these were shot same range, same distance, same day. kicking it in cedar park.

45ACP (2).jpg
springfield xd45compact

9MM (2).jpg
xd9subcompact

380ACP (2).jpg

ruger second version lcp

very slow and deliberate trigger practice. funny thing, in 2nd and third targets there are low fliers. they coincided with the 556 shots being fired next to me. :roll: the 9mm surprised me a little because i normally string down, but that time the stringing was vertical. something about trigger control on that one that i haven't figured out.

it takes about a half hour with the ruger 22 before i'm ready to start shooting the carry guns. the lcp is always with me. sometimes all three of them are on me. for you know tacoma and the middle of the night airport runs
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by Griff »

1st hand gun I ever shot was my uncle's Colt SAA in 45 Colt, 7-½". Fast forward 16 years and I found myself in Uncle Sam's canoe club and shooting the 1911. I qualified expert with it, simply because I didn't know anything and followed the range master's instructions to the letter. Back then the sights were fuzzy either Jim! 6 years later found me with a used mdl 10 and at the Sheriff's qualification range. Once again, I didn't know anything and followed the instructor's instructions to the letter. Within a week I was shooting the full 300 points with between 30 & 35 Xs. The best I could do with my off duty Combat Commander (45ACP), was the low 290s. Today, the gun I shoot most often is a SA Colt, either the 1851 or the SAA. Friday I finished up a 3-day match shooting the 1851s without a miss all 3 days. Up until the very last stage in a pouring rain, I didn't have a FTF, or any hiccups, that last stage took me recapping the 2nd revolver 3 times to get the required five charges to go off. Cost me a buckle in the process, but for the first time in 6 tries, I shot a "clean match!"
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by AmBraCol »

Just got back from a month of playing with pistols I rarely get to play with. Usually I'm shooting the Llama Cassidy in 38 SPL and can do OK with it at defensive ranges. I didn't do too much with the semiautos, ran one magazine full (8 rounds) through Jeff Quinn's Shootist 30th anniversary Ruger SR1911, one magazine through the S$W Shield, one cylinder full through my wife's Shootist 35th anniversary Single Seven 327 and the rest of my handgun shooting was cap and ball, Ruger OM 357 Mag, Ruger OM Single Six, S$W Model 10, and Jeff's old 25th Anniversary Bisely 44 Special - in that order of number of shots fired in increasing progression. Most of it was shot at 100 meters on out (including the Shield and SR1911), but I spent some time on the "Law Enforcement" range and they had targets similar to what you show in your original post, some at 25 yards and the rest further out, clear to 50 yards or so. Most of THAT was the 44 SPL, Skeeter loads. I found that when I put my mind to it (to ignoring the recoil and thus overcoming the flinch) that I could do good work single action out to 50 meters. I played games with myself by randomly ejecting a couple of empties, replacing them with live rounds and spinning the cylinder (carefully, none of that Hollyweird stuff) between shots (dry or otherwise) helped me to concentrate on obtaining the sight picture properly and maintain it through the shot cycle.

After running the Bisley for a while the Model 10 with 4" heavy barrel in double action was easier to run. I did some of the same drill of partial, random placement live rounds and that helped to concentrate on the fundamentals. I tell you, there's a big step up from shooting air pistols to cartridge guns and for once I didn't do too bad in making the switch. I wish I'd spent more time with the 38 on the "Law Enforcement" range though, especially on the closer 25 yard plates. I found the experience quite didactic.

The way I see it is - I'm shooting against myself. If I can better what I've done in the past, great. If I can at least equal my less horrible results, good. I don't see it as "training for a gun fight" so much as it's developing proficiency in the use of a tool that might one day be called on to save my or another person's life. I keep thinking back to that situation in the church in Texas a couple years ago where the "sheep dog" carried off a 50 foot (if I recall the distance correctly) headshot on the murderer - successfully. I don't think I've got the confidence to try that shot at this time.

I know a lot of folks swear by the 1911 and its derivatives as "the end all" of defensive handguns. For me it's always taken more effort to maintain any kind of skill with it - probably because of my asinine fixation on recovering each round of brass from practice sessions. And since I only get to shoot it when up north, it's been much easier to simply focus on the sixgun instead - but I need to do more double action work for sure.
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by JOG »

Since I've obtained my CCP about 20 years ago, I've only carried two styles of firearms.
Colt 1911's full size then a Commander and a German Sig P228.
I'm decent with both of them within 25 yards.
I'm not trying to start the old 45acp vs 9mm. debate. Both have there merit's!
Since I found a new Colt lightweight Commander that's been my every day carry 90% of the time.
I have two well made El Paso Saddlery Holsters for both.
My revolvers are generally for kicking around the woods.
I'm tempted to lug my early 1980's S&W model 66-2 this winter.
I have not had enough time behind the trigger on this revolver yet.
It shoot's very accurately, but I'll probably stick with what I'm used to.
If your proficient and comfortable with a certain firearm carry it daily!
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by stretch »

Mostly I carry a Rossi 357 with full-house 357 loads. (14gr. 2400 pushing a 158gr. JHP.)
It resides in a Simply Rugged Pancake holster. I can wear this rig all day, and it's comfortable
enough that I sometimes forget that I'm wearing it.

Sometimes I carry Hi-Power, a Beretta 92, or a Model 10.

But mostly I carry the Rossi. It's way more accurate than one would think, and seems utterly
reliable. I did change the mainspring, and did a bit of work on the recoil shoe and generally
cleaned things up inside. Didn't touch the sear or hammer, though. DA is very good now. With
the lightest mainspring I could find, the DA was angelic - but it didn't always go bang! :( So, I put
a stronger spring in it, and now it's merely very good.... The grip is an outstanding design, and
light years better than the stocker on an SP101, for instance. I can draw it from concealment well,
and hit what I aim at with it.

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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by Woodsloafer2 »

I handgun hunted for many years and always shot revolvers. Bowen Ruger 357 Blackhawk converted to 41 mag. Has an extra long cylinder and can shoot 275 grain bullets. A 4 inch barrel and was a handful with full power loads. Next a Freedom Arms 454 also a handful. Then a Bowen 45 Colt Redhawk. About 4 years ago I got bitten by the auto pistol bug. When I started I could not shoot them well at all. All of my auto pistols now wear red dot sights. A Glock 20 10mm and 21 45acp along with a CZ P07 9mm. Dry fire practice with those red dot sights taught me more about pistol shooting than I had learned in all the previous years. When the shot breaks the effects of my grip follow through all became very apparent. This helped me refine my grip, trigger finger placement and many other things. Made my open sight shooting better too even though they are pretty fuzzy sights. I am now a much better shot as a result of the red dot dry fire practice. Highly recommend them for auto pistols. Still like my revolver with open sights.
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by piller »

Red dots are fuzzy to me. I have too many color receptors in my retina. Before getting my my eyes checked with dilation, I warn the Optometrist or Opthalmologist that they are going to see something that the books say is impossible. 25% more cones than should be there. The red in a red dot has 3 distinct colors to me. There are 27 distinct colors in a rainbow, although those with the same condition report seeing insects glowing just like I see them. Green dots are much sharper. I can ignore the lighter and darker green much easier.
For precision shooting, red dot sights just do not work for me.
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Ray
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by Ray »

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Last edited by Ray on Thu Feb 10, 2022 4:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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piller
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by piller »

I may have to play with one and figure out which color to shoot with.
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Catshooter
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by Catshooter »

Green is generally easier to see, at least for most eyeballs.


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biggfoot44
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by biggfoot44 »

Scott's mystery is actually fairly obvious .

DA Revolvers require a certain level of strength for each shot . Even if you can still make it go bang after a while , fatigued muscles are less controlled and precise .

A SA or DA/ SA semiauto will have a lighter pull for all or most shots respectively . Thus more shots fired before reaching equivalent " finger fatigue " .
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Scott Tschirhart
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

biggfoot44 wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:09 pm Scott's mystery is actually fairly obvious .

DA Revolvers require a certain level of strength for each shot . Even if you can still make it go bang after a while , fatigued muscles are less controlled and precise .

A SA or DA/ SA semiauto will have a lighter pull for all or most shots respectively . Thus more shots fired before reaching equivalent " finger fatigue " .
I had not thought about it that way, but you might be right.
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marlinman93
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Re: Revolver/auto pistol dilemma

Post by marlinman93 »

As a big revolver fan, and owning mostly S&W revolvers, I've always shot a revolver more accurately. But the caveat is at a reasonable speed. If it's about getting rounds off accurately and as quick as I can and stay accurate; then my semiauto pistols edge out my revolvers fired in DA. I just can't maintain as much control, and fire the revolver quickly in DA mode.
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