Brass Cartridges .....

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JimT
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Brass Cartridges .....

Post by JimT »

About 35 or 40 years ago the prevailing wisdom among (internet edit: my mistake . see post below) shooters of the .45 Colt was that Remington brass was the weakest of all the brass available. I read stories where people said the cases were so weak that the case heads would separate from the body ... that full-length splits on the 2nd or 3rd reloading happened all the time and that you could not use them for hot loads. At the time John Taffin and I were experimenting with 300 gr. bullets in the .45 Colt Ruger Blackhawks, something that a lot of wisdom at the time said could not be done. Then one day I got a call from some guy named John Linebaugh who exploded my world, which is a whole 'nother story. But eventually we worked up loads for the .45 Colt with 300 gr. bullets and with John Linebaugh's help had them pressure-tested at Hodgdon's Lab, proving they were well within safety margins for the bigger frame guns.

During that time I decided to see if Remington .45 Colt brass was weaker than the others. I took 100 brand new unfired Remington-made .45 Colt cases and set them aside in a 100-round MTM cartridge box. I began loading these with my standard 300 gr. load, firing and reloading the cases, keeping track of any failures. The load was with Lyman Bullet #457191 sized to .452" and using 18.5 gr. 2400 with a CCI Large Pistol Primer. At the end of 20 reloads I had lost 11 cases I believe it was, out of the 100. All were due to neck cracks from sizing, neck expanding and crimping. I did not anneal cases in those days because brass was cheap. I did not anneal any of the Remington cases. I quit counting at 25 reloads but I know by that time I had not lost more than 15 out of the original 100 cases.

They were all fired in a Linebaugh-built .45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk with nice tight chambers. I never had a case head separation with .45 Colt cases, no matter which manufacturer made them.

With the .357 Magnum I have had occasional full-length cracks on the first firing. I am speaking now of 60 years of shooting. The full-length split on the first firing has happened rarely and with various manufacturers. In all those years I doubt I have had 10 such occurrences.

Most causes of case failure (not counting over pressure loads) is usually due to neck sizing, neck expanding and crimping operations. The brass work hardens and splits. The same can be said for full-length or nearly so splits after multiple reloads. Usually this is due to an over-size chamber and a tight sizing die or some such combination.

Do companies put out "bad" brass? Yes, it has happened. Mistakes happen. Quality Control sometimes slips. Not often thankfully.

Do reloaders have their favorite brass?
HA!
If you have to ask that question you haven't talked to many reloaders.
457191.jpg
#457191 300 gr. load in .45 Colt
DSC06527.JPG
Linebaugh-built .45 Colt Ruger
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Last edited by JimT on Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bronco
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Re: Brass Cartridges .....

Post by Bronco »

Back when brass was cheap and plentiful, my favorite brass was the "free brand" which could be had almost any time at the range :mrgreen:
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JimT
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Re: Brass Cartridges .....

Post by JimT »

Bronco wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:51 pm Back when brass was cheap and plentiful, my favorite brass was the "free brand" which could be had almost any time at the range :mrgreen:
I have a lot of those!
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Re: Brass Cartridges .....

Post by piller »

I understand about work hardened brass. Could it be possible that sometimes a manufacturer doesn't anneal new cases? Stamping out a case would work it quite a lot, wouldn't it? Mostly guessing here. I am certainly not an expert, but I am not without a minimum amount of knowledge. The original forming of the case starts with punching a cylindrical disc out of a sheet of brass. It is them punched and formed. Every step works the brass. Once the case is formed, they are usually annealed. Most new brass I have purchased will show the color changes from the annealing. Brass can also harden over time even when just left in storage. Atoms can rearrange over time.

I don't have any ammunition that is old enough to have splits showing on the neck. I guess it is possible to occur with age of the cartridges.
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Re: Brass Cartridges .....

Post by AJMD429 »

Many of the new brass cases I’ve bought that were bottleneck cases showed annealing clearly, but now that you mention in I’m not sure I’ve ever seen straight-wall new cases that looked like they had been annealed...

Maybe I don’t know all to look for though... :|
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JimT
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Re: Brass Cartridges .....

Post by JimT »

piller wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:35 pm I don't have any ammunition that is old enough to have splits showing on the neck. I guess it is possible to occur with age of the cartridges.
Brass does not split just because it is old. I have fired cartridges that were 60 to 80 years old and never had any of them split. Like you say, brass work hardens and without annealing can develop cracks and splits. I have seen brass that was too brittle, as I said earlier, and it split on the first firing. Rare but does happen. If a batch gets out without proper annealing it can happen.
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Re: Brass Cartridges .....

Post by Catshooter »

Jim,

I agree with every word. Almost. You had internet in the early eighties? Man! Was Bill Gates your neighbor? :) I didn't get on the interwebs until '99, so you beat the socks offa me.

:)


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Re: Brass Cartridges .....

Post by GunnyMack »

Work hardening by reloading sure does add to case loss, but yes age will cause brass to fail as Piller says but mostly in bottle neck cases. I inherited a couple hundred peices on 218 bee factory primed cases, yellow box . I decided to try some fresh brass with lilgun, velocities weren't what I thought they should be so I deprimed those old primers and lost half to neck splits. I'm not a metalurgist but the copper in the brass continues to get harder with age. Annealing is the way to go with old brass. My 257 AI is a brass eater but since I learned of annealing things are better( a lot of Remington brass)
Straight wall like 357,44,45 shouldn't work harden as fast. In my experience nickle plated, especially 357, splits worse than anything.
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Scott Tschirhart
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Re: Brass Cartridges .....

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

There definitely appears to be a difference in brass quality and some cartridges (and guns) are easier on brass than others.

Many years ago, I recieved 2000 rounds of new brass from Jeff Quinn for the .44 Special. Starline made the brass with a special headstamp. I have been shooting that brass in various guns for a long time and I still have not had a case split. But I think that my .44 Special guns probably have pretty uniform chambers and the brass does not get worked that hard. I tend to shoot more of the Skeeter load than anything, though I have run up to 16 gr of 2400 at times. You can definitely tell the difference when resizing a case with a stiff load of 2400 or H110.

I've had some .38/.357 revolvers that seemed to have had some oversized chambers and they would work the brass more. I got a lot more splits in various .38 loads in those guns than I ever see in .44 Special brass.

When I have a split case, I throw it out into the brush and I don't worry about it......brass is nothing more than a gasket.
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Re: Brass Cartridges .....

Post by JimT »

Catshooter wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:56 am Jim,
I agree with every word. Almost. You had internet in the early eighties? Man! Was Bill Gates your neighbor? :) I didn't get on the interwebs until '99, so you beat the socks offa me.
:)
Cat

Well sir ... you got me there. I didn't get internet until somewhere between 96 and 98 .... all I can do is plead guilty and throw myself on the mercy of the court.

In the 1980's we had JD Jones "The Sixgunner" ... and some cast bullet publications ... I believe (I hope) I was thinking of those when I wrote "internet wisdom" ... a lot of the publications of the day had writers who repeated the old story that .45 Colt brass was weak.

But as to my brain
gaaaaaas.jpg
.... Sorry .. :oops:

EDIT - I have edited it to show my mistake.
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Re: Brass Cartridges .....

Post by marlinman93 »

Since .45 Colt is one of my all time favorite cartridges, I've got thousands of brass cases, and in numerous different brands. But I'm also pretty conservative with my charges, and most of my loads are in the 250 gr. bullets, or lighter, and velocities never exceed 950 fps. So to date I've never lost a case of any brand.
I stopped keeping track of how many times my cases have been reloaded, as it seemed futile with the case life I see.
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Re: Brass Cartridges .....

Post by piller »

I have lost a case or two. My error. I didn't flare the mouth enough and the bullet crushed the case down on one side as it was being seated. I learned to make sure the bullet would start in with a little bit of case mouth being flared open. I also learned that too much was going to quickly wear out the brass. I also lost a case when a carbide ring die broke. That was the only one that was being reloaded which was not my error.
As mentioned before, there have been a few case ruptures of one particular caliber out of one batch that I purchased. Not a major brand.
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Re: Brass Cartridges .....

Post by Catshooter »

JimT wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:07 am
Catshooter wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:56 am Jim,
I agree with every word. Almost. You had internet in the early eighties? Man! Was Bill Gates your neighbor? :) I didn't get on the interwebs until '99, so you beat the socks offa me.
:)
Cat

Well sir ... you got me there. I didn't get internet until somewhere between 96 and 98 .... all I can do is plead guilty and throw myself on the mercy of the court.

In the 1980's we had JD Jones "The Sixgunner" ... and some cast bullet publications ... I believe (I hope) I was thinking of those when I wrote "internet wisdom" ... a lot of the publications of the day had writers who repeated the old story that .45 Colt brass was weak.

But as to my brain gaaaaaas.jpg .... Sorry .. :oops:

EDIT - I have edited it to show my mistake.
Ha! So busted! I guess the Court will show leniency, as long as you promise to never make another mistake as long as you live. No sweat. :)

I remember those JD Jones yellow newspaper-like magazines! Loved 'em. There was an article in one (or more) about 300 grainers in the .45 Long Colt that inspired me to ask Walt Melander to make me up a 300-325 grain Keith in .45. He did and sent me a lovely brass two cavity mold for it. I paid $60 for the mold and $100 for him to cut the cherry. Boy that was a lot of money for me in those days. Eighty two or three? Not sure anymore. That bullet worked well outa my short Stainless Ruger Blackhawk. Nine grains of Unique or 20 grains of 2400 it shot very well even a long range.

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JimT
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Re: Brass Cartridges .....

Post by JimT »

Well crapola! I made another mistake. I thought I had made a mistake typing and went back to check it and found out I didn't!
There is no end to mistakes!
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Scott Tschirhart
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Re: Brass Cartridges .....

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

marlinman93 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:44 am But I'm also pretty conservative with my charges, and most of my loads are in the 250 gr. bullets, or lighter, and velocities never exceed 950 fps.
I wish I had done exactly this. No need to beat my hands up so much over the years.
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Re: Brass Cartridges .....

Post by piller »

I have a couple hundred .452 diameter 325 grain cast bullets left. With a moderate load they are pleasant to shoot out of my Ruger Blackhawk. A strong push on the recoil, but not a sharp punch.
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