Outdoorsey people, Ticks, & Lyme Disease...

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AJMD429
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Outdoorsey people, Ticks, & Lyme Disease...

Post by AJMD429 »

.

Ask your doctors about taking doxycycline once a week prophylactically.

Makes sense to me, but of course everyone has different risks and allergies snd other medications and health issues to consider, so check with your personal physician.
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Re: Outdoorsey people, Ticks, & Lyme Disease...

Post by Blaine »

That medicine is really rough on the gut...kills all the good bugs. But, it's probably better than catching lymes
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Re: Outdoorsey people, Ticks, & Lyme Disease...

Post by jmiller »

That antibiotic has one very serious side effect. It can cause extreme blood pressure spikes in some people. It lists “uncommon but well documented extreme spikes in blood pressure in some individuals”. I know this because I ended up in the hospital after taking it. I’ve been bitten twice by Lyme carrying ticks and have been put on other antibiotics immediately for three weeks. All resolved well afterwards. Your best defense against ticks it to check yourself all over every time you’ve been in areas where they are. If they are removed within 24 hours they usually don’t infect you with the disease. Here in NY, most counties have traps out catching ticks and checking them for infections. In Allegany County where I own property, adult ticks have a 50% infection rate and immature ticks are 25%. Those are astoundingly high numbers and I’ve seen a very noticeable increase in the amount of ticks over the last ten years.
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Re: Outdoorsey people, Ticks, & Lyme Disease...

Post by 44shooter »

I think repellent to keep the ticks off is a better idea. I don’t take antibiotics unless I have an infection that doesn’t improve
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Re: Outdoorsey people, Ticks, & Lyme Disease...

Post by AJMD429 »

.

Agreed on tick-inspection and so-on, but every year I see a couple patients who bathed or showered daily and washed their hair, and a week after they were in the woods, still find a tick somewhere. So a single dose (recommendations vary as to the dose) taken within a week of exposure has been proposed, and used, for those with high exposure risk. That ranges from one dose for the once-a-year camper to one-dose-a-week for a few months each year for those whose job or hobby keeps them in the woods for extended periods. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31449366/

Also - 'Lyme disease' is only a thing in some areas of the U.S., although you have to be careful interpreting things like that; the first case of Lyme I saw was back in 1988, and in that era, "there is no risk of Lyme disease west of Pennsylvania" according to the experts. Indiana was as far east as my patient had ever been... :roll: ...so 'experts' kinda aren't always experts. However, I think the maps and the testing of ticks (not just people) has improved accuracy on that front. (Then again, there are likely a bunch of other tick-borne pathogens we've yet to discover from the numerous other species of ticks, although which antibiotics kill them who knows.)

The stuff in insect repellant is kind of nasty to some people's skin, especially if used daily as some people would need to do, and most of the effective ones need sprayed on clothes rather than skin due to carcinogenic ingredients that personally I'd fear using regularly far more than sporadic antibiotic.

The doxycycline side effect we see most often is heightened sun-sensitivity when used twice a day for weeks, or even months-on-end, although with once-a-week prophylaxis I've never seen any problems at all. Keep in mind that doxycycline acts at the bacterial ribosome and thus is not as likely to cause human side effects as most antibiotics that are more powerful, such as the penicillins and cephalosporins, which kill off too many of the beneficial GI bacteria and cause potentially serious issues if not taken with probiotics. Doxycycline is considered 'bacteriostatic' rather than 'bactericidal', although it is often classified as 'broad spectrum'. The latter designation is not very precise, but what it alludes to clinically is that doxycycline kills stuff drugs like amoxicillin won't touch, YET amoxicillin is a much more potent antibiotic against the things amoxicillin does kill (like streptococcal pneumonia, etc.).

Doxycycline is most often used twice a day for extended periods by dermatologists or for obscure infections other antibiotics don't kill, and with that regimen, and with that use we do see some GI side effects and very rarely BP elevations and so on (nowhere near as much side effects with doxycycline as with drugs like Keflex though - which is notorious for causing clostridium difficile enteritis if used too long), which resolve pretty quickly once you stop the medicine. For the older teenage acne patients it was used sometimes for over a year continuously - those kids might start it in the winter and if the doctor forgot to warn them get some worse-than-normal sunburns the next spring without all that much sun. Again, on once-weekly I've not seen that, even though we are using it in 'outdoorsy' people in the summer. The 'literature' does indicate that some people experience increased photosensitivity after 'even a single dose' but in 35 years I've never seen that happen.

If a person actually gets Lyme disease, you can use doxycycline daily, and most people tolerate it, or you can use Keflex (cephalexin) daily, and either one has issues to monitor, but for prophylaxis, the only regimen I know of that seems to have been 'proven' is the doxy weekly.

ALSO be aware that if you do get Lyme, the 'standard' lab tests, even the Western Blot test is NOT very sensitive, and misses up to a third of cases, and the ELISA, which is what doctors are trained to use as a screen before even doing the Western Blot, is in the opinion of many, almost useless. We are told by infectious disease docs at conferences that the 'two-tiered testing' (using both tests) is the way to go, yet it misses up to half of Lyme cases - https://www.lymedisease.org/lyme-disease-test/...!

I have a nurse practitioner in my area who knows about all there is to know about Lyme disease, so I send her anyone I suspect of having it. She will only send the blood to a couple labs that do more sensitive testing, plus test for some of the similar-but-different tick-borne infections that are missed but still cause serious illness.

She told me about one case where the patient's MD had told her there's no way it could be Lyme, due to the negative two-tiered testing, and that the patient likely had amyotrophic lateral sclerosis. The patient was sent to a neurologist, who agreed. ALS (Lou Gehrig's disease) is uniformly fatal, so the patient was basically sent home to die. In desperation the husband took her to an 'alternative medicine' doc, who did more thorough testing, and suspected Lyme. After aggressive antibiotics, the patient began to improve, and after a couple years, is almost back to normal. ALS would have killed her by that time, so it sure wasn't that.

The cases I’ve seen (...and Lord only knows how many I’ve missed ... :| ) have been ‘chronic’, where a patient comes in, often after seeing a cardiologist because they’ve been having chest pain or shortness of breath but their arteries aren’t very clogged, or a patient who comes in with ‘arthritis’ or myalgia that is starting to interfere with ordinary activity, yet the x-rays don’t show that much disease. They sometimes turn out to have Lyme. The crappy part is that although you can confirm the diagnosis and treat them so the symptoms will usually quit getting worse, you can’t really undo the cardiomyopathy, and often whatever degree of muscle and joint pain they have fails to improve, although at least it may stop getting worse with proper treatment.

See enough of those ‘outdoorsy’ people unable to do what they enjoy even though they are still young, and you start thinking differently about weekly doxycycline, especially knowing the pharmacology.

What is interesting to me is that we really only know anything about Lyme disease because sometimes (about 20% of the time) there is a strange circular, expanding, rash that occurs right after a known tick bite, and with that odd 'visual', of course it gave physicians something to biopsy and pathologists something to look at, and eventually they found Borrelia burgdorferi, Borrelia mayonii, and other related pathogens. Think about all the insect and mite and tick bites we all get over the years, and how many OTHER pathogens are probably injected into us over the years, that don't happen to make a strange rash to investigate. :| Then think about all the other Lyme-like symptoms we all tend to have as we age - fatigue, achy muscles, heart problems, and so on. We write many off as "just getting old", yet perhaps many of them are actually being caused by other pathogens similar to Lyme, that we just haven't discovered.

I have some physician friends who are not crazy (at least a few of them, anyway) who take once-a-week antibiotics of various regimens as part of 'anti-aging' regimens. There is now actually Board Cerification available in 'anti-aging medicine', which sounds kinda hokey, but some of their continuing education overlaps with topics I attend like bioidentical hormone replacement and lipid management and so on, and much of it does have reasonable science behind it.

Once a week antibiotic dosing seems NOT to create any 'resistance' issues as far as we can see clinically, unlike the more common modest-dose-for-two-weeks kind of thing we were trained to do; do too much of that and you create hard-to-kill germs (though most 'antibiotic resistance' is due to agricultural use, or is occurring in hospitals, where any germ there is a bad-*** that nothing kills well, because it wouldn't be there if it were easily killed). For acute infections I find it is ideal to pick a well-tolerated antibiotic and use a very high dose but just for a short period of time, presuming the person is overall healthy and has a decent immune system. We were taught to prescribe Amoxil 250 mg four times a day (1,000 mg/day total) for ten days (or up to two weeks for strep), but I find prescribing 2,000 mg twice a day (4,000 mg/day total) for 3-5 days works faster, better, and causes less diarrhea, less vaginal yeast, and NO 'resistance'. In essence, if the patient needs help fighting an infection, call an air-strike to set the infection back pretty hard, giving the patient's own immune system time to catch up and fight the infection naturally, the right way, and 'learn' the germ so next time it will kill it faster, perhaps without needing antibiotics...!

Occasionally a just-graduated pharmacist calls and doesn't want to fill the 'toxic' dose, because Amoxil went generic decades ago, so nobody will ever apply to the FDA to get the new higher dose approved, so their computer tells them it is not ok to give that much. I explain that I wanted to give Augmentin XR, which was still patented when they did apply for a higher dose (two 1000 mg of amoxicillin capsules, twice a day, for 4,000 mg/day total amoxicillin), but that Augmentin XR also contains clavulanate, which upsets people's stomachs, and is only needed if the bacteria produces beta-lactamase, so I'm just doing the same dose with the amoxicillin alone). That usually reassures them and they fill the Rx. (BTW - I make sure I ALWAYS thank the pharmacist for calling, because even if it seems like a dumb question or something that if I were a SnowFlake LibTard I should be 'offended' or 'insulted' that they wasted my time to question my Rx - pharmacists filling prescriptions, and nurses administering medications, are the 'final editors' proofreading the medical treatment plan, and if - or rather when - I DO make a mistake, I don't want them thinking "oh he's a jerk and I'm not going to call him to question this - just fill it"...!)

Anyway - just food for thought to discuss with your physician(s)...
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Re: Outdoorsey people, Ticks, & Lyme Disease...

Post by JOG »

Here in Maine it's a terrible year for ticks!
I've already had about 24 or 25 on me!
Only one dug in so far!
Keep out of the high grass!
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Re: Outdoorsey people, Ticks, & Lyme Disease...

Post by gcs »

Thanks Doc, I always look forward to your posts and the advice or suggestions you give...Most Doctors "here" seem to read from a script, and are members of large health groups where independent thought is discouraged.
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Re: Outdoorsey people, Ticks, & Lyme Disease...

Post by piller »

In Manhattan, KS, we had a patient with Lyme Disease. She took 8 of the 500 mg capsules of amoxicillin three times a day. She was allergic to tetracyclines. The toxic dose of Amoxicillin is closer to 72 (yes seventy two) capsules three times per day. There are other antibiotics which may help. If you are not allergic, Doxycycline is still a great antibiotic for lots of things.
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Re: Outdoorsey people, Ticks, & Lyme Disease...

Post by 765x53 »

Soak and air dry your outdoor pants and socks in permethrin solution to avoid ticks completely.
Permethrin concentrate is available at any farm supply.
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Re: Outdoorsey people, Ticks, & Lyme Disease...

Post by OldWin »

I just took some of that last Thursday. Only thing my doctor said was the be careful of direct sunlight for a couple days. Don't know why.
Here's the thing with ticks......
Everyone knows to check if you been in the woods or whatever. That's a no Brainer.
The problem is when you have done nothing and been nowhere where they are. I call these residual ticks. It has been my fear, and is exactly what happened to me. I had been nowhere. It was on my back. I have no idea when and where I got it.
You have to check every day, no matter what. Permetherin, etc., is great, but it's not 100%. You still have to check every day. It's the only way.
Ticks are relatively new here. They are worse every year and have become a real quality of life problem. We will never be rid of them.
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Re: Outdoorsey people, Ticks, & Lyme Disease...

Post by stretch »

I just took some of that last Thursday. Only thing my doctor said was the be careful of direct sunlight for a couple days. Don't know why.
Because you'll break out in huge pimples - ask me how I know! :o
This is a common reaction, and for some people it is amazingly severe.

I had Lyme a couple of years ago, and it cost me a whole summer.
Don't even recall having a tick on me, which I'm told is not at all uncommon.

They are a scourge. Out for a walk - only on the road - sometimes two or three ticks on me when I return.
I haven't brushed against grasses, trees or shrubs.

-Stretch
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Re: Outdoorsey people, Ticks, & Lyme Disease...

Post by AJMD429 »

... had Lyme a couple of years ago, and it cost me a whole summer.
Don't even recall having a tick on me, which I'm told is not at all uncommon....


Yep; that’s the issue for many people....THEY DIDN’T EVEN KNOW THEY HAD A TICK BITE... :shock:

... Soak and air dry your outdoor pants and socks in permethrin solution to avoid ticks completely.
Permethrin concentrate is available at any farm supply...


Good advice too.
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Re: Outdoorsey people, Ticks, & Lyme Disease...

Post by spurgon »

Hi all,
I just finished a 2 week regiment of doxycycline , twice per day, for a diagnosis of Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever. I got it from a Lone Star Tick (didn't know they passed RMSF). I tested negative for Lyme.
I still have a daily headache but the fatigue has passed. QUESTION:
How long do symptoms typically last? QUESTION: If my Lyme test was inaccurate the Doxycyline should have cured that as well ?
I had no rash, and I think that I must have had a light case or caught it early.
QUESTION: Will I be immune to RMSF In the future?
Thank you,
Spurgon
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Re: Outdoorsey people, Ticks, & Lyme Disease...

Post by piller »

Some people seem to be tick magnets. I occasionally get them. I have seen people who get them when I never even suspected that ticks were in the same zip code.
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Re: Outdoorsey people, Ticks, & Lyme Disease...

Post by OldWin »

piller wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:31 pm
Some people seem to be tick magnets. I occasionally get them. I have seen people who get them when I never even suspected that ticks were in the same zip code.
I've noticed that too. Has to be something in the body chemistry.
This was only the second one I had bite. The first had just got on me. I've found one crawling on me, and a couple on my clothes. That's it.
I know people who pull off a dozen after walking across the yard.
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Re: Outdoorsey people, Ticks, & Lyme Disease...

Post by AJMD429 »

I’ve never seen a case of RMSF, so would just have to go by what a reputable medical website like MedScape says myself.

But yes, you would be amply covered for Lyme with that early and high dosing.
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Re: Outdoorsey people, Ticks, & Lyme Disease...

Post by AJMD429 »

I’ve never seen a case of RMSF, so would just have to go by what a reputable medical website like MedScape says myself.

But yes, you would be amply covered for Lyme with that early and high dosing.

It is rare enough that not a lot is known, but the Rickettsia organism seems to provoke pretty good (‘probably lifetime’) immunity from what I’ve read.
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Re: Outdoorsey people, Ticks, & Lyme Disease...

Post by MS 9x56 »

I have had Lyme for 4 years now. The 2 best thing you can do if you are an outdoorsy person is treat your clothes with permethrin and check yourself every time you come in from being afield. I have found literally hundreds of ticks crawling on my clothing and dozens on my body over the years. Make sure you kill every one you find , don’t just brush them off or you may find them on your pets later. Have fun in the outdoors just be cognizant and observant. If you do get bit contact your doctor.
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Re: Outdoorsey people, Ticks, & Lyme Disease...

Post by GunnyMack »

My sister was one of the early cases, before doctors knew what it all was. She has been crippled up, new hip, knees are shot, her hands are wrecked from arthritis due to the spirocete.
Keep close contact with your dog( have them vaccinated for Lyme) , dogs have a higher body temp and the ticks will gravitate to them. Same theory of how lap dogs were developed- to keep the plague carrying fleas off the King!

The mouse population is normally the ticks main source of food,transportation so keep the vermin down and the ticks stay down. Chickens, guinea hens are tick eaters so if ya got birds turn em loose! (Unless you have high predator count) Also clearing of invasive underbrush ( around here its barberry) , the mice love it as its full of needle like thorns. Burning the under growth helps as well.

15 seconds in the microwave and ticks really get to dancing as they boil alive- very fitting end if ya ask me.
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Re: Outdoorsey people, Ticks, & Lyme Disease...

Post by .45colt »

We have ticks here like flies.....All the dogs have them , the grandkids routinely have them. last year working out in the woods all day I had one in the back of My left arm above the elbow. the Doc cut it out and gave me some pills to take. a month later I got bit again but no tick. this time I had the big bulls eye ( on my right arm) and then the Doc really got on the horse and says it's Lyme. more strong antibiotics. We have both deer ticks and dog ticks here.
My Question.....A few years ago We had Coyote hunters here with four BIG hounds. they were working the woods and swamp behind My house about 4000 acres total. all old farm land and second growth. I was blown away when one of them told Me they had killed 130 coyotes in two years. these guys were pretty scary and I didn't doubt them , with pump guns that had no finish left on the receiver from being carried. :shock:
with all the coyotes around chasing the deer could that explain the outbreak of ticks? I have lived here for more than 40 years and never had a problem till now. the coyote's have to be full of ticks?............... dealing with ticks is getting old fast.
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Re: Outdoorsey people, Ticks, & Lyme Disease...

Post by hondo1892 »

I lived in south east Michigan until 2014 and we had ticks the last several years we were there. I'm in Kentucky now and when I was a kid back in the seventies and early eighties all I seen here were dog ticks. Now I see lone star and black legged deer ticks along with the dog ticks. I usually get bit by a deer tick every fall or winter and my Dr. gives me a round of antibiotics. My dog got lame in one leg a couple years back and it turned out he had lime disease. The vet treated him but he doesn't seem as lively now as before. I get the lime vaccine for him now every year so he doesn't get another case of it.
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Re: Outdoorsey people, Ticks, & Lyme Disease...

Post by piller »

I spread Ironite on my lawn. It has sulfur in it. My dogs seem to have fewer fleas when I use ig one or two times a year.
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Re: Outdoorsey people, Ticks, & Lyme Disease...

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Re: Outdoorsey people, Ticks, & Lyme Disease...

Post by .45colt »

Sorry Ray... I went to the Doc..... not in a panic.... but We went to church with a Man that had ongoing Lyme and had such health problems He had to quit His job and His life is nothing close to How He lived before .
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Re: Outdoorsey people, Ticks, & Lyme Disease...

Post by piller »

With what Lyme disease does to you, it is a good idea to make sure that tick bites do not get that bullseye rash. Fear of ticks? Not really. Caution, kind of like not going beyond what is listed in a reloading manual, is not a bad thing.
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Re: Outdoorsey people, Ticks, & Lyme Disease...

Post by .45colt »

Be leave Me......if You get the Lyme untreated You will wish You were hit by freight train full of bull stuff. Your life is over..................................o.k. now have a good laugh. :shock: :roll: :cry: :evil: .
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