.45 Short Colt

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here ... politely.

Moderators: AmBraCol, Hobie

Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Post Reply
User avatar
JimT
Shootist
Posts: 5468
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:04 pm

.45 Short Colt

Post by JimT »

Image

Image

Image

Speaking of "short" .45 Colts Elmer Keith wrote "...Some newcomers to the game claim there is no such animal, but if they had shot the short variety that Remington turned out in such profusion before, during and after World War I they would see there was some basis in referring to the .45 Colt as the .45 Long..." (Sixguns, page 285)

As far as I know there have never been any .45 Colt cartridges headstamped "Long" and though I have reports of old cartridge boxes marked "45 Long" I have never personally seen any. Mr. Keith referred to them from time to time as "long" Colt's (with a small "L"). If you have ever seen the short Colt .45's you can understand why.

The Winchester .45 Colt's that Paco and I have came from Shootist Keith Owlett who gave them to us a short time before he passed on. The cartridge box is deteriorated and I have it put away - at least what's left of it. But it is plainly marked ".45 Colt Government". The headstamp on the cartridges is ".45 Colt" ...BUT these are SHORT .45 Colts! The headstamp is the same as the longer .45 Colts, even down to the "W" on the primers.

These are NOT S&W or Schofield cartridges. The rim diameter is the same as the long .45 Colts, which is smaller than the Schofield rim diameter. These are true .45 Short Colts. The cartridge is listed in Cartridges of the World on page 306 as ".45 Colt - .45 Colt Government".

I can visualize someone walking into a hardware store around the turn of the last century and asking for a box of .45 Colt's. As the clerk pulls down a box the customer says, "Not the short ones. I want the Long Colts!" and the name ".45 Long Colt" came down to us as a "user-applied" name, not a factory name.

The case is 1.1" long. The powder charge was black powder, approximately 28 grains. The bullet weighed right at 230 gr. and was lubed with a white chalky-looking substance. I fired one from my Ruger 7 1/2" barreled .45 and it went through the chronograph at near 750 fps.
User avatar
CowboyTutt
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3712
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:27 pm
Location: Mission Viejo, CA

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by CowboyTutt »

Jim, I remembered that you had some 45 short Colt ammo from many years ago. I was hoping you might bring it up again. It is indeed on page 306 of Cartridges of the World 9th edition (McPherson was the editor of that one). -Tutt
"It ain't dead! As long as there's ONE COWBOY taking care of ONE COW, it ain't dead!!!" (the Cowboy Way)
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)

"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
Catshooter
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 996
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:19 pm
Location: South East South Dakota

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by Catshooter »

Well, pin my ears back and dunk me in the lard! I've read what Elmer said about it and I believed him. But until now I'd never seen a pic. Thanks Jim! Those are indeed short Colts.

Argument put to rest as far as I'm concerned.

"I fired one from my Ruger 7 1/2" barreled .45 and it went through the chronograph at near 750 fps." Sorry to hear of the death of the chrony. I've done that too. :D


Cat
User avatar
Ray
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2823
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:45 am

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by Ray »

Deleted.
Last edited by Ray on Fri Feb 11, 2022 4:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
m.A.g.a. !
User avatar
CowboyTutt
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3712
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:27 pm
Location: Mission Viejo, CA

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by CowboyTutt »

Its on page 335 of the 11th edition of COTW. The editor at that time just re-hashed McPherson's information from the 9th. There truly was a "short Colt" and it was not a Schofield as Jim T. also reported to us. Rim size was different. The 45 Colt Government with its shorter case and smaller rim worked (more or less) in either a Schofield or Colt gun. It was available between the late 1870's and 1930's. -Tutt
"It ain't dead! As long as there's ONE COWBOY taking care of ONE COW, it ain't dead!!!" (the Cowboy Way)
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)

"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
lthardman
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 366
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:12 pm
Location: Northern Michigan

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by lthardman »

CowboyTutt wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 6:43 pm Its on page 335 of the 11th edition of COTW. The editor at that time just re-hashed McPherson's information from the 9th. There truly was a "short Colt" and it was not a Schofield as Jim T. also reported to us. Rim size was different. The 45 Colt Government with its shorter case and smaller rim worked (more or less) in either a Schofield or Colt gun. It was available between the late 1870's and 1930's. -Tutt
This is sure consistent with what I had heard before. I have appreciated this entire discussion as what I have called the .45 Long Colt has long been a favorite cartridge of mine, both in my SAA's and in a couple rifles.
"Now it cuts like a knife, but it feels so right." - Bryan Adams
.45colt
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4720
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:00 am
Location: North Coast of America-Ohio

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by .45colt »

Thanks Jim , Elmer can just sit back and have a good laugh at all of the A holes who said He was a liar............... :lol: .
User avatar
Griff
Posting leader...
Posts: 20803
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by Griff »

When did sales of .45 Colt Government cease? As I recall reading in military history that the cartridge was a stop gap measure to allow Schofields, Colt, and even S&W top breaks in 45 Colt to be issued one cartridge. ISTR it was loaded with 28 grains of powder, vs. the 40 grains loaded in 45 Colts. In the present, IMO, to refer to the 45 Colt as a "long colt" is an affectation. A deference to a cartridge that hasn't been produced in 90+ years. I'd bet that 90% of those who do think it was to avoid confusion with the 45ACP. I know I did for many years.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93

There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
User avatar
JimT
Shootist
Posts: 5468
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:04 pm

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by JimT »

A few days after chronographing I went out in the hills and called up a nice large coyote and shot him with the .45 short. He ran to within 10 feet of me, responding to the call. I pulled the gun up and shot, hitting him up through the right shoulder and spine, dropping him instantly. The little pointy bullet did not damage the pelt at all. I was able to tan the hide and make a nice looking wall hanging from it.

He was probably the last critter on earth ever killed with a short .45 Colt!

I wrote this up .. I think it was in Guns & Ammo (but I am not sure anymore .. it could have been one of the other Peterson Publication's magazines) ... somewhere between 1985 and 1989.

EDIT ... Ray .. I have used the Schofield cases for the 480 Achilles also. Changing shell holder is a pain though. If I get bored someday I'm gonna turn the rims down a bit. :D
User avatar
Sixgun
Posting leader...
Posts: 18566
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: S.E. Pa. Where The Finest Winchesters & Colts Reside

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by Sixgun »

Short of the U.S. Military archives you won't find the variations below. This is much better than reading from what a gunwriter wrote or what some say at the local cowboy match.

ALL except far right are U.S.Military issue.

ALL are original black powder.

There was a .010 difference in rim diameter between the .45 Long/Short Colts and the .45 Smith & Wesson Schofield. The latter would work in the former but was iffy-but-probable the other way around. -----006

Self explanatory. Rim diameter at the top. Cartridge next to last on the right was experimental tin plated.

The troopers complained about the excessive recoil of the "long" variation so they came out with a "short" version. Then the Schofield , made by Smith & Wesson required the "short" version but with a
Last edited by Sixgun on Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
Model A Uzi’s
Image
User avatar
Old Savage
Posting leader...
Posts: 16688
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:43 pm
Location: Southern California

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by Old Savage »

So the point is ??? Nothing was ever labeled Short Colt or Long Colt???
In the High Desert of Southern Calif. ..."on the cutting edge of going back in time"...

Image
User avatar
JimT
Shootist
Posts: 5468
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:04 pm

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by JimT »

Thanks Sixgun. Nice seeing 'em lined up together.
User avatar
Sixgun
Posting leader...
Posts: 18566
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: S.E. Pa. Where The Finest Winchesters & Colts Reside

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by Sixgun »

Old Savage wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 10:19 pm So the point is ??? Nothing was ever labeled Short Colt or Long Colt???
Back in those days you were supposed to know.....unlike today when the liberals started whining, crying, pouting, and stamped their feet....everything is labeled today for the stupid
Model A Uzi’s
Image
piller
Posting leader...
Posts: 15189
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:49 pm
Location: South of Dallas

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by piller »

The Army called them the .45 Frankford Arsenal due to that was the place where they were developed so that they could be used in all the .45 Schofields and all the .45 Colts. Ammunition commonality is a big bonus for the military.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
User avatar
Ray
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2823
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:45 am

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by Ray »

Deleted.
Last edited by Ray on Fri Feb 11, 2022 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
m.A.g.a. !
User avatar
Old Savage
Posting leader...
Posts: 16688
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:43 pm
Location: Southern California

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by Old Savage »

But the label 45 Colt has not changed.
In the High Desert of Southern Calif. ..."on the cutting edge of going back in time"...

Image
User avatar
Scott Tschirhart
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3840
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:56 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

The troopers complained about the heavy recoil? Since when did anyone in authority care what the troopers thought?
Bill in Oregon
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 8850
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:05 am
Location: Sweetwater, TX

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Scott, the Army sort of did this before when it introduced the 55-grain/405 bullet loading for use in the Trapdoor Springfield carbine, vs. the 70-grain/405 loading for the rifles in response to recoil concerns.
Jim, thanks for bringing this up, as I, too, remember Elmer writing about the .45 short Colt vs. the .45 Long Colt. Those shorties were real! :lol:
Ray Newman
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2042
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:43 pm
Location: Between No Where & No Place, WA

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by Ray Newman »

SixGun: The .45-100-550 Sharps -- is the cartridge case 2.4" or 2.6" long?
The most important aspect of this signature line is that you don't realize it doesn't say anything significant until you are just about done reading it & then it is too late to stop reading it....
Grand Poo Bah WA F.E.S.

In real life may you be the bad butt that you claim to be on social media.
User avatar
Sixgun
Posting leader...
Posts: 18566
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: S.E. Pa. Where The Finest Winchesters & Colts Reside

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by Sixgun »

[And
Last edited by Sixgun on Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Model A Uzi’s
Image
User avatar
Old Savage
Posting leader...
Posts: 16688
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:43 pm
Location: Southern California

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by Old Savage »

Nice work there Sixer.
In the High Desert of Southern Calif. ..."on the cutting edge of going back in time"...

Image
User avatar
Sixgun
Posting leader...
Posts: 18566
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: S.E. Pa. Where The Finest Winchesters & Colts Reside

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by Sixgun »

Old Savage wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 2:21 pm Nice work there Sixer.
Thank you my fine friend.....I'm glad I was bit by the old gun/old cartridge when I was a teenager and as soon as I was 18 and making my own money I bought every old thing pertaining to guns I could get.......and it gives a satisfying feeling that I can share this stuff near a half century later.

I had zero people who were influencers.....it was all a personal self taught trip researched and managed by Double O Six, your eastern Sicilian connection......

Gotta go.....Gas Pipe and Whack Whack are here.....---006
Model A Uzi’s
Image
User avatar
CowboyTutt
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3712
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:27 pm
Location: Mission Viejo, CA

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by CowboyTutt »

Six, that is some really impressive detective work that you started decades ago. After zooming on the photos to the best of my ability, I would have to point out that not a single one of them is head stamped even generic "45 Colt", 45 "Short Colt", 45 "Schofield" or anything other than the month and year of manufacture which was the common practice for military ammo at the time. I have 71/84 Mauser ammo from 1888 that is marked similarly by month and year.

To my mind, this supports your argument that it was up to the shooter or consumer to know what he was buying for his gun. But this early military ammo was not head stamped as to what it was and an oral nomenclature was probably developed to distinguish between them even way back then but never formally adopted.

In more recent times, it was to distinguish between the 45 Colt (as all the other "short" or Schofield derivatives were long gone) and the 45 ACP most likely.

Honestly, I just want to be understood at the counter or online when buying components. But its interesting to me that none of this early ammo was properly head stamped at all even with all the variants.

-Tutt
"It ain't dead! As long as there's ONE COWBOY taking care of ONE COW, it ain't dead!!!" (the Cowboy Way)
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)

"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
User avatar
CowboyTutt
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3712
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:27 pm
Location: Mission Viejo, CA

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by CowboyTutt »

Jim T. do you have any idea of the production date of your 45 Colt short ammo that is head stamped 45 Colt? Six??? I can't seem to tell so far. But it has to be very, very old.
-Tutt
"It ain't dead! As long as there's ONE COWBOY taking care of ONE COW, it ain't dead!!!" (the Cowboy Way)
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)

"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
User avatar
JimT
Shootist
Posts: 5468
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:04 pm

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by JimT »

Hey Tutt! No, I don't. I believe Paco researched it and it was before 1930 ... I am not sure though.
User avatar
Sixgun
Posting leader...
Posts: 18566
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: S.E. Pa. Where The Finest Winchesters & Colts Reside

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by Sixgun »

Thanks Tutt.....those were the days, 1870's-1880"s....when everything was new and a good guess why there were no headstamps is because there were not many different cartridges around and those who did have these types of guns were no dummies...their life depended on them for food and fight....

We never or rarely hear about screw ups and there were plenty. Happens today....some years back my uncle calls me up and asked me,"what kind of cartridges does my 300 Weatherby use?" He continues, "I bought a box and after I shoot them the brass looks different." Yep.....300 Win Mag in a 300 Whby chamber....and this was a guy who owns about 20% of New Jersey. (Exaggeration, just showing you his smarts)

I've lost interest as it all just turned "old hat" after doing it for so many years....in addition to my shelves of factory boxes, I have tubs full of ammo.....probably 3-400 singles of rim fire ammo and I'm not talking any .22's.

Your right, most, if not all military ammo is not marked.....easily deciphered if you know the codes which denote manufacturer, month and year......simple brainless...F.A is Frankford Armory....on 45-70's you will sometimes see an "F" for Frankford and an "R" which is "rifle" meaning it has the heavier charge and/or heavier bullets. I posted a pic here today with a mess of 45-70's with the inside Benet primed copper cases and on those cases is an "R" for rifle and a "F" for that part of Philadelphia where it was made, plus the month and year.

Even on the old guns such as the original '74 sidehammer Sharps you will see a "44-100" etc and you had better know what it was.
First model 1873 Winchesters were not marked at all as the 44 WCF was the only round for it and were not marked until the 38 WCF came out sometime in the late 1870's.

My very good friend who has since passed on was a man that few can equal.....Jack Kort.....we would be at a big match and me and Gunny (the other Gunny) would camp out along with a half dozen other guys along with Jack Kort. We would be the last ones going to bed swapping info on the old guns around the campfire. The last time was at Ridgway Rifle Club and Jack gave me his old powder collection...I asked, "what you doing, this stuff is valuable?". He said it could not be going to a better home. To say I was distraught the next day upon leaving was a understatement as we both knew it was the lsat time we were together.

Never mind..I'm going to bed
Model A Uzi’s
Image
User avatar
Sixgun
Posting leader...
Posts: 18566
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: S.E. Pa. Where The Finest Winchesters & Colts Reside

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by Sixgun »

Tutt....the headstamp and the box puts it at around late 1890's to around 1920.....I have a book...hold on, I'll get it...just a guess.
Last edited by Sixgun on Tue May 25, 2021 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Model A Uzi’s
Image
User avatar
marlinman93
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6432
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:40 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by marlinman93 »

I think what has caused the confusion and debate over many years is the "short Colt" being a later offering after the ".45 Colt" was already on the market. Had it come out first then the latter would likely have always been called the ".45 Long Colt" and marked this way on boxes.
Pre WWI Marlins and Singleshot rifles!
http://members.tripod.com/~OregonArmsCollectors/
User avatar
Old Savage
Posting leader...
Posts: 16688
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:43 pm
Location: Southern California

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by Old Savage »

Six, you have beyond a doctorate level in knowledge in the areas you have talked about. I think I have something just over 7,000 class hours in my doctorate. If you figure the time you have put in to be able to call up this information with the examples of guns, cartridges and knowledge of variations and chronology you are certainly way beyond the 7,000.including whatever study time was involved.
In the High Desert of Southern Calif. ..."on the cutting edge of going back in time"...

Image
User avatar
Scott Tschirhart
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3840
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:56 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Personally, for most shooting chores, I think a 230 gr round nose over 30 gr of black powder would be more than sufficient. And I agree that a load of 40 grains of black under a 255 gr bullet is quite a bit of recoil.

These days, I'm pretty happy with a good .44 Special. I keep hearing people say that the Skeeter load will do for 95% of all you would do with a sixgun. However, I carry a gun every day and shoot all the time. I'm not sure that I have ever felt underguned, certainly not 5% of the time.
User avatar
horsesoldier03
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2059
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:32 pm
Location: Kansas

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by horsesoldier03 »

Griff wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 8:37 pm When did sales of .45 Colt Government cease? As I recall reading in military history that the cartridge was a stop gap measure to allow Schofields, Colt, and even S&W top breaks in 45 Colt to be issued one cartridge. ISTR it was loaded with 28 grains of powder, vs. the 40 grains loaded in 45 Colts. In the present, IMO, to refer to the 45 Colt as a "long colt" is an affectation. A deference to a cartridge that hasn't been produced in 90+ years. I'd bet that 90% of those who do think it was to avoid confusion with the 45ACP. I know I did for many years.
IMO this is the most logical explanation and fits in with the military’s policy of being able to cross ammo.
“Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.”
User avatar
Sixgun
Posting leader...
Posts: 18566
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: S.E. Pa. Where The Finest Winchesters & Colts Reside

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by Sixgun »

THANK YOU FRED!

My extremely "low level doctorate" pales extremely low to your real deal doctorate........7,000 hours? Calculated from the day I turned 6 to now comes out to 533,000+ hours......I ate, slept, breathed, had dreams, and everything else in life was devoted to pre war guns. :D I have one of the most comprehensive libraries of cartridge guns from 1860's to a bit-after-the-war.....and it's all in my head.

I freely gave out my information whenever someone needed it and it all came back to me. Associates would exclaim to me, "what are you, nuts, telling that guy what it's worth?" I never once regretted any of it. I was on speed dial from two large gunshops and the phone rang weekly....questions ranging from "what is this? What's it worth?....to, "this guy needs your help in getting an old gun working".

By having this carefree and give away attitude got me some of the nicest guns even a rich man can't buy because there's only one of them made. It got me in the inner circles of Smith & Wesson and the Colt factories.....it got me many one of a kind rarities right out of their archives vault. Forgot how many times people would stop over here and ask me if I was interested in this or that and I always told them the same thing, "take it to any gunshop, check the internet and then come back to me" I won every time and the word spread......

And what did I give for it all? Information that's hard to come by honestly and never a bad word as to my reputation....

But here I'm an azzhole and that's OK as I know who I am and my family knows who I am. Been married to the same woman for 48+ years, have two very successful children and retired early at 62 working for the same company and haven't owed anyone a dime since I was 40..........must be something said for that.

Can't think of any issues with anybody in the gun world in my area......as for here, except for a few good guys like you, Master Gunny, Master Jim T, Jay, DocAJ, Gamekeeper, Tom and many others, the rest of them can go hug their Biden doll. :D

And all that hate comes from those who preach love and praise the Lord......and the only thing I'm trying to do is to guide them into buying good guns, not J.U.N.K.

Thanks again Fred...your the best! (next to me) ------006
Model A Uzi’s
Image
User avatar
Old Savage
Posting leader...
Posts: 16688
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:43 pm
Location: Southern California

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by Old Savage »

What a hoot, I explore things that interest me. I have never charged anyone for my opinion on a professional issuing question. ;-).
In the High Desert of Southern Calif. ..."on the cutting edge of going back in time"...

Image
Catshooter
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 996
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:19 pm
Location: South East South Dakota

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by Catshooter »

Seven thousand hours? Ha. I never once gave it a thought but, yeah, I suppose that's right. Six, yer way up on me, I didn't get started on my gun study until I was about 16, so almost 42 years. We're way past seven thousand, ain't we?

And yes, you did the right thing by sharing your knowledge freely and helpfully. Or so I believe. I don't care for people that hug their knowledge tight, never letting any go except for a profit. Idiots. Life's too short not to help as many as you can.


Cat
User avatar
Old Savage
Posting leader...
Posts: 16688
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:43 pm
Location: Southern California

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by Old Savage »

Six, impressive # but we are not paying you from Six. Might be off by a factor of ten. Redo the math..But might get to 50,000.hours.
In the High Desert of Southern Calif. ..."on the cutting edge of going back in time"...

Image
User avatar
Sixgun
Posting leader...
Posts: 18566
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: S.E. Pa. Where The Finest Winchesters & Colts Reside

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by Sixgun »

Oh....wait......my personality just changed....Cat told me I could...thanks Cat!

Where was I ??? Oh! Personality change......I'm watching Archie Bunker......Archie and his neighbor, a black guy have teamed up to stop a Puerto Rico family from moving in next door.

Funny thing.....I used to watch that when I was 20-25 and 40 years later I have a different take on it. Can't stop laughing......
Model A Uzi’s
Image
User avatar
JimT
Shootist
Posts: 5468
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:04 pm

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by JimT »

I like the idea of sharing what I know.
Someone pretty famous once said, "Freely you have received. Freely give!" ..... though too many who claim to follow Him seem to charge for their stuff. :?
I appreciate you all sharing your combined knowledge. Makes this place comfortable. Thank you.
And I don't mind sharing at all. In fact, I am happy to share with anyone how to make a Bersa .22 into an accurate reliable little pocket gun. :lol:
User avatar
Sixgun
Posting leader...
Posts: 18566
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: S.E. Pa. Where The Finest Winchesters & Colts Reside

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by Sixgun »

JimT wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 7:13 am I like the idea of sharing what I know.
Someone pretty famous once said, "Freely you have received. Freely give!" ..... though too many who claim to follow Him seem to charge for their stuff. :?
I appreciate you all sharing your combined knowledge. Makes this place comfortable. Thank you.
And I don't mind sharing at all. In fact, I am happy to share with anyone how to make a Bersa .22 into an accurate reliable little pocket gun. :lol:
Master Jim...you do freely give away your knowledge....a fair percentage of what I know came from you on Taffin's Sixgunner board. This is while I was finishing up my bachelors degree and working on my masters........same can be said for Paco Kelly.....I used to e mail him and he took the time to answer my question on how to open up a mould. My stupidly came in opening up the mould on a very rare Lyman 400 gr. RN........well, the bullet design was not rare but it was a special order FOUR cavity mould.....didn't screw it up too bad ...just a few thou out of round which is nothing when they get pushed 1100.

You put up videos on casting, loading and even discussing that worthless cartridge, the 480 something. :D (laughing Jim..don't take it seriously....please?)

Your free teaching does not go unnoticed....

As you know, NEVER discuss politics and religion to your buddies or a public forum....but you are exempt from that as you know the correct words to use and even have your own disclaimers..."for those who are interested".

In my 66 years I've seen too much hypocrisy in the religious world....that started 40 years ago when the Father of our Catholic Church took off with a rich divorcee that used to live around the corner......after he left the Priesthood, she dumped him.....

I can worship/thank/ask the Lord anytime I want, right from here.--------thanks Jim......I would have loved to have known your daddy.....----006
Model A Uzi’s
Image
User avatar
JimT
Shootist
Posts: 5468
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:04 pm

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by JimT »

You are OK Sixgun!
You know I like to rattle your cage once in awhile ... just like you do me.
None of it is taken too seriously.
:lol:
coyote nose
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 476
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:25 am
Location: NE Ohio

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by coyote nose »

JimT, if I may sir, can I date your.......cartridge box? :lol:
First thing I noticed was the word ''center fire". Winchester used "central fire" on cartridge boxes until around the mid 1890s, so a clue that your box is after that time frame. It also does not specify Black Powder or Smokeless Powder, the powder type being noted on the boxes, usually, when both were commonly loaded ie: turn of the century. More on this later. The italicized "WINCHESTER" is usually indicative of post WW1 manufacture. There is no date code on the label which is a bit more vague as it was phased out slowly, but would indicate to me no earlier than the early 1920s. Then by enlarging the end label I can see a "K" code (on the right label). Winchester used that throughout the 1920s after they got rid of the date code, and then switched to a "W" code in the late 1930s/early 1940s. Again, the changes were a bit gradual. All of these little hints are not etched in stone but added together you can get reasonably close to the date of manufacture and I would say your box is from the mid to late 1920s. In fact I would be almost certain of it.
Now onto the cartridge. The primer is stamped with a "W". With some manufacturer's I was informed a stamped primer was the company's way of identifying a different powder. As an example in the 1890s a US Cartridge Co cartridge with a "US" on the primer meant it was a smokeless load (the 'different' load for that time). I often find UMC cases from this era with a "U" on the primer. Perhaps Winchester, loading your cartridges with black powder (certainly obsolete by the mid 1920s) went with a stamped primer to identify it wasn't a smokeless load. Who knows, I am just grasping here because I need to explain away something puzzling to me. I would expect your box to have a "Black Powder" sticker on the label. These auxiliary labels of "Black Powder", "Smokeless", "Lesmok", "Shot Load" etc. are very common on boxes as it seems Winchester would have on hand a boatload of already printed boxes that they needed to change. Instead of tossing them they simply made a little sticker and glued it on the box. Sometimes they are found on the side labels but your photo does not show the labels well enough. I can guarantee you though as a buyer of ammunition in the 1920s I would want to know if the things had black powder in them!! I am sure Winchester somehow marked this. Also, Winchester would sometimes print reloading data on the side labels, inside, or on the bottom of the box. Just something else to look for when you get the time.
One last thing. These cartridges may be loaded with mercuric primers so make sure you clean the bore of your Ruger very good. And clean the fired case good too. When I shoot and test old ammunition I pull the bullet, save the powder if it appears good, deprime and toss the primer, reprime with a new primer, then reload with the original powder and bullet.
Thanks for the chrono data! Those of us that love the old days certainly appreciate the info as to what was in use back then.
Last edited by coyote nose on Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
"...for there is a cloud on my horizon...and its name is progress." E. Abbey, 1958
User avatar
JimT
Shootist
Posts: 5468
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:04 pm

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by JimT »

coyote nose wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:16 am JimT, if I may sir, can I date your.......cartridge box? :lol:
..... I would say your box is from the mid to late 1920s. In fact I would be almost certain of it.
That would fit with what Paco came up with ... if I remember correctly he dated them to before 1930.
coyote nose
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 476
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:25 am
Location: NE Ohio

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by coyote nose »

Ok, one other thing I left out in case anyone is going to try to get a date of manufacture of their particular Winchester box: Winchester went from a two piece box, like the one illustrated, to a one piece box (with the slide out cardboard tray), in the late 1920s. In the case of 38-40 it was 1927/28. I cannot find when 45 Colt (Long or the Short shown here) changed over, but probably the same time era.
"...for there is a cloud on my horizon...and its name is progress." E. Abbey, 1958
User avatar
TheTexasRAT
Levergunner
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:13 pm
Location: Dogpatch Arkansas

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by TheTexasRAT »

JimT wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 4:08 pm As far as I know there have never been any .45 Colt cartridges headstamped "Long"
[img]https://www.marlinowners.com/threads/sc ... lide=0[img] :o
Last edited by TheTexasRAT on Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
JimT
Shootist
Posts: 5468
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:04 pm

Re: .45 Short Colt

Post by JimT »

TheTexasRAT wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:24 pm
JimT wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 4:08 pm As far as I know there have never been any .45 Colt cartridges headstamped "Long"
[img]https://www.marlinowners.com/threads/sc ... lide=0[img] :o
Ha! Finally someone paid to have some made!
It was gonna happen sooner or later.
Post Reply