Chronograph results on an original .44-40 load

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here ... politely.

Moderators: AmBraCol, Hobie

Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Post Reply
User avatar
Scott Tschirhart
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3838
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:56 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Chronograph results on an original .44-40 load

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

In the movie "Winchester 73" there is a discussion when the bad guy shoots the trader from ambush. Of course the guy is already dead, but they don't know it.

It takes him a little while to keel over, and the actor talks about how the Henry killed too slow and he was going down to get a real rifle. That Winchester 73 was chambered (most likely) in .44 WCF.

So, I have read that the Henry fired a 200 gr bullet at 1200 fps. (though it seems almost impossible with such a small black powder charge).

Has anyone fired a .44 Henry Flat over a chronograph? Or heard of someone doing so?

Does anyone have the velocity numbers on the original .44 WCF blackpowder loads?

Just curious.
Bill in Oregon
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 8849
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:05 am
Location: Sweetwater, TX

Re: Chronograph results on an original .44-40 load

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Scott, bet you will get some replies!
black river smith
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 10:58 am

Re: Chronograph results on an original .44-40 load

Post by black river smith »

Scott,

Stole this from another site. But I think the original author posted here, also. "Testing some original 44WCF blackpowder cartridges. The dead primers were replaced and the 5 rounds averaged 1320 fps." This was written by w44wcf in a posted named My 44-40 Blackpowder Journey.

When I find his posting here on the Levergun site I will copy the link so you can read his full test results.

PS - I could not find his w44wcf signature over here. So, I hope this site does not mind a link to another site directing you to his original study and text. See attached and enjoy https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index ... ic=54292.0
User avatar
Buck Elliott
Member Emeritus
Posts: 2830
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:15 pm
Location: Halfway up Sheep Mountain -- Cody, Wyoming

Re: Chronograph results on an original .44-40 load

Post by Buck Elliott »

HINT:
Don't rely on old movies for firearms or ballistics information...
Regards

Buck

Life has a way of making the foreseeable that which never happens, and the unforeseeable, that which your life becomes...
User avatar
Sixgun
Posting leader...
Posts: 18565
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: S.E. Pa. Where The Finest Winchesters & Colts Reside

Re: Chronograph results on an original .44-40 load

Post by Sixgun »

The Henry Flat was no where near the 44-40....going out of my head .....the Henry used 28 grains of black. .....my guess ...about a thou.

I've chronographed lots of original 44-40 ammo from BP to modern and they all came up around 1200, usually in the high 1100's ....except stuff made in the last 30 years or so and they come up a bit over a thousand......

Got to check my notes.......
Model A Uzi’s
Image
black river smith
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 10:58 am

Re: Chronograph results on an original .44-40 load

Post by black river smith »

Scott,
Cartridges of the World book lists the 44 Henry Flat 200 gr bullet as having a MV of 1125 fps. For whatever that is really worth.
User avatar
Scott Tschirhart
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3838
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:56 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Chronograph results on an original .44-40 load

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Buck Elliott wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 11:56 am HINT:
Don't rely on old movies for firearms or ballistics information...
LOL! Yeah, I get that. I read an article years ago in a Lyman Cast Bullet manual (as I recall) about the .44-40 and how anemic it seemed to the author in comparison to his uncle's muzzle loading double rifle. Wish I could find that article.
.45colt
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4720
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:00 am
Location: North Coast of America-Ohio

Re: Chronograph results on an original .44-40 load

Post by .45colt »

Hang on,...... as soon as Brian Austin (aka Savvy Jack) sees this He will have some solid data . He is next to the late John Kort the 44-40 expert.........
User avatar
Carlsen Highway
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 487
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 8:23 am
Location: Dunedin, New Zealand

Re: Chronograph results on an original .44-40 load

Post by Carlsen Highway »

John Kort had some original .44WCF black powder from the last century, and replaced the dead primers. They all went bang satisfactorily and he chronographed them at 1300 fps which was what the Winchester advertising claimed.

Here is a website that preserves a lot of his articles and posts. For the .44 WCF shooter it is invaluable:

https://sites.google.com/view/44winches ... CID=MY01SV
Last edited by Carlsen Highway on Mon May 17, 2021 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A person who carries a cat home by the tail, will receive information that will always be useful to them.
Mark Twain
User avatar
Carlsen Highway
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 487
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 8:23 am
Location: Dunedin, New Zealand

Re: Chronograph results on an original .44-40 load

Post by Carlsen Highway »

Specifically addressing the original question of .44 Henry original load and velocity, here is John Kort's experiment in his words:


According to the 1875 Winchester catalog, the velocity of the .44 Henry was "about 1,125 f.p.s." with a 200 gr. bullet.

A dissected .44 Henry cartridge had .08" of powder compression on the 28 gr. powder charge.

So, I tried 28 grs. by weight of different black powders in the .44 Special case to see what powder whose density would give a simiilar compression rate using a 200 gr. bullet from a 44 WCF mold which has a seating depth of .34". The MAV-D "Big Lube" has the same .34" seating depth.

I found that, interestingly, a settled charge of 28 grs. by weight of the SWISS b.p.'s gave a very similar compression rate as the original 44 Henry cartridge at a bullet seating depth of .34" in a W-W headstamped .44 Special case.

In testing, I found that none of the 28 gr. charges were "spot on" the "about 1,125 f.p.s." ........

average velocities - 3 rounds each - 24" barrel
Swiss 1F...... - 1,101 f.p.s.
Swiss 1 1/2F - 1,171 f.p.s.
Swiss 2F...... - 1,206 f.p.s.
Swiss 3F...... - 1,246 f.p.s.

The new lot of KIK would require quite a bit more compression. I'll test that next and post the results.

Based on some interpolation of the results of using using 40 grs of Swiss 3F in the 44-40 and 28 grs of Swiss 3F in the 44 Special, 23 grs. of Swiss 3F in the .44 Russian just may replicate the original .44 Henry ballistically.......

w44wcf
A person who carries a cat home by the tail, will receive information that will always be useful to them.
Mark Twain
User avatar
Ray
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2824
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:45 am

Re: Chronograph results on an original .44-40 load

Post by Ray »

Deleted.
Last edited by Ray on Fri Feb 11, 2022 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
m.A.g.a. !
User avatar
Scott Tschirhart
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3838
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:56 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Chronograph results on an original .44-40 load

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

That's the article I remember Ray! Thank you for sharing that.

Carlsen Highway, thank you. That is exactly the kind of information I was looking for!
User avatar
Bryan Austin
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 323
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:05 pm
Contact:

Re: Chronograph results on an original .44-40 load

Post by Bryan Austin »

Sorry folks, been real busy with work.

Most of John's work has been spot on when replicating original loads for the 44-40 and trying to replicate 4 Henry ballistics with the 44 Henry using Henry loads in the 44-40 cases.

In Winchester's 1875 catalog the first 44 WCF cartridges appeared. Winchester stated, “The effect of this change [from 44 Henry to the 44-40] is to increase the initial velocity of the arm from about 1,125 f.p.s. to 1,325 feet per second."
User avatar
Scott Tschirhart
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3838
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:56 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Chronograph results on an original .44-40 load

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Thanks guys! Very helpful.
Post Reply