To build an 1873 or not...

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gunlovebirds1024
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To build an 1873 or not...

Post by gunlovebirds1024 »

Hello All,

Couldn't find an introduction page. 1st post. Been reading and gathering information, figured a should join and talk instead of just lurking.

Wondering what your thoughts are - worth building a new rifle or not. I have a handful of old 1873 frames and parts from other projects and repairs. There is enough to create a working action or so. I now need to decide what to do with everything. Last was a "restomod" of a 32cal rifle. Got the rifle working again and accented the patina with polished silver colored lever, buttplate, duct cover.

One of my big problems is I don’t believe the frames match with the lower tangs.

Options:

I’ve considered sending a working action to Turnbull to have a nice fully restored rifle to go with my others. Has anyone else done this? No question of work but is it worth the expense compared to value or just to have a really pretty one. Doubt i'd ever get rid of it.

2nd model frame with no lower tang. Modify a 3rd model to make it work? Having trouble finding a 1st/2nd model lower tang.

32 Cal barreled frame with 20” barrel. The only cut in the bottom of the barrel is for the tenon. Thinking this was originally a short rifle. No holes for a saddle ring.

1873 Mares Leg? Plenty of pre-1898 parts. Cut a badly rusted barrel.
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gamekeeper
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Re: To build an 1873 or not...

Post by gamekeeper »

Welcome to the fire gunlovebirds......... :D
If more men loved and cherished their wives as much as I love bacon the world would be a much better place.
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Ray
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Re: To build an 1873 or not...

Post by Ray »

Deleted.
Last edited by Ray on Fri Feb 11, 2022 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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coyote nose
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Re: To build an 1873 or not...

Post by coyote nose »

Wow! First welcome to the forum.
I have rebuilt, from a bare frame, about 4 1873 Winchesters (and 2 1886, 2 1876 Winchesters, and 4 or 5 1890 pump 22 winchesters). Of those, I sent 2 frames (an 1886 and an 1890) to Turnbull for case coloring. Could not be happier with those guns. I'm prefacing my comments with all that so that my thoughts that follow can be taken in context.
First of all more info is needed. Is your frame in good shape? Is it patina'd or sanded bright? ....is it a 44 cal frame or the 38/32 cal frame? Do you already have an 1873 rifle or carbine? What calibers do you have? Is the bore good in the 32 barrel? Is it round or octagon?

1. Cost for others to do it. A fully Turnbull'd gun is pricey. Only you can decide if it is worth it. I personally find them spectacularly beautiful, but the cost was so high I decided to do the rebuild myself and just send the parts to be colored to Turnbull. Remember a gun from them is the original frame, some internals, and that is about it. New wood, new barrel, new locking links, etc.

2. Cost if you do most yourself. On the 2 I sent in for case coloring I did all the polishing, metal fitting, woodwork and barrel work myself. If i recall they wanted $300 for the polish and $300 for the case work back in 2011 for the 1886, it is more now, but polishing is not difficult if you take your time to back up all the abrasive paper so edges are not rounded AND polish in the correct direction. I saved myself the polishing fees right there. Make it a hobby and not a job. Here is the 1890 I rebuilt. I think in 2015 when this was done Turnbull charged me $325 for the case coloring.
project8.JPG

3. Ebay is your best friend when rebuilding guns. You state you have enough parts for a full rifle, but keep eBay in mind if a part is bad or missing.

4. The barrel. Both of my Turnbull'd guns got brand new barrels. Since i was going to have lots of time and lots of money invested, I wanted the things to shoot good, not just look good. That necessitated a new barrel with its attended lathe work...and buying reamers. Can you do the lathe work for a new barrel? If so some money can be saved. Of course if the old barrel is good you save a lot! Remember if you send it to Turnbull they probably wont use the old barrel.

5. Dont overlook just rebuilding the gun back to "original" appearance, you state you have left over parts from previous projects so I assume you have done this aspect before.

6. I am confused as to the lower tang. I thought 2nd model lower tangs and 3rd model lower tangs were the same. Wasn't it just the dust cover rail that was screwed on for the 2nd models and cast into the frame for the 3rd model?

7. IF the 20" 32 cal barrel has a nice bore, and IF it were mine, and IF I wanted another Turnbull'd receiver here is what I would do (since you asked). I am assuming you do NOT have wood for this project yet. I am assuming the 20" barrel is octagon. First I would check if the front sight dovetail is 3/4" back from the muzzle, and that the magazine tenon is correct. If so then it is an original short barrel so I would not mess it up and would rebuild it as a short barreled rifle with new wood. The magazine would end maybe 3" beyond the forend tip. I would polish the receiver, the buttplate, the lever, the hammer, and the forend tip and send them off to Turnbull. The result would be a sweet looking unique 1873 rifle. If however, the barrel turned out to be a cut down barrel...I would probably "half round" the barrel and mate it to a magazine tube that ends flush with the forend tip. Again, a rather unique piece. The options actually are varied...you could make an octagon carbine, or a shotgun style butt rifle (what I did to my 1886). In short, the work can be done, can you do it or are you willing to pay Turnbull to do it for you?

8. I guess step one in all of this would be for you to carefully examine your parts and decide what YOU want, then go from there.

9. I have found life is too short...there is such a joy in owning, shooting, and handling a beautiful rifle. If you want a Turnbull'd gun I say GO FOR IT and enjoy it. Whether they only do the CC or they do the entire gun is up to you, your pocket book, and your skill.
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"...for there is a cloud on my horizon...and its name is progress." E. Abbey, 1958
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Ray
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Re: To build an 1873 or not...

Post by Ray »

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Last edited by Ray on Fri Feb 11, 2022 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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gunlovebirds1024
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Re: To build an 1873 or not...

Post by gunlovebirds1024 »

Ray wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 3:42 pm Mind you, I was not intimating that the torch/cold blue treatment was even remotely a substitute for quality refinishing. The guns I did this to were what the real collectors refer to as "grey rats".....
Haven't heard them term "grey rats" before
gunlovebirds1024
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Re: To build an 1873 or not...

Post by gunlovebirds1024 »

Coyote thank you for your response and great information. Very helpful and gets me thinking. Did my best to answer your questions.

Frames:
- 38/44 – dark patina, no serious pitting, no step, large mag tube hole.
- 38/44 – 2nd model, most of the finish gone, working on some small dent, no step, large mag tube hole, have the bolt w/bushing also.
- 38/44 – covered in rust, metal flaking. Using for parts and experimenting
- 38 – finish gone, couple deep dents, 20” barrel, working on the bore, no cuts in the bottom of the barrel. When I align it with other rifles for reference the barrel is long enough for where they are cut. Bottom of the barrel doesn’t have the rounded cut in it like the other rifles. Front sight cut starts at ¾” from the muzzle.
- 32 – barrel measures 21 1/4“ Strange cut at the end. Cut for the mag tube holder aligns with other rifles. Lower tang seems to match, 207xxx serial number. Used for some parts, found a homemade nut on the end of the screw holding the lever spring in place.

Image

Have two 1873 rifles w/octagon barrels that I feel are in good condition: 32-20 that shoots great and 44 1st model w/30” barrel (need to get a letter)

1. Cost for others to do it… Great points. I was thinking of sending a frame that functions with no barrel or wood so it could be a good option.

2. Cost if you do most yourself… Love the 1890. My 1890 is in its original shot and had a lot of fun with condition. Everyone loves it. CCI 22 shorts pest control rounds make little to no noise and ping metal or soda pop cans perfectly.

All I have done is clean the rust and 100yrs of dirt. I will work the worst of it but likely not 100% polished.

3. eBay is your best friend… and enemy. Surf there on occasion but usually worried about what I get. Sometimes a few extra dollars for the parts stores is good to me. I will slowly collect and gather parts when I see deals. One nice part of being a hobby is I’m in no hurry.

4. The barrel. I would opt for the new barrel. Maybe the tang sight like you have on the 1890 or vernier sight.

5. Don’t overlook just rebuilding the gun back to "original" appearance… I don’t have the tangs matched to the frames. I thought about sending a couple serial numbers to get lettered to see what comes back. Likely a 44 rifle for the two 89xxx numbers. The 20” barrel I don’t have the right tang for.

6. I am confused as to the lower tang… The dust covers yes. There were also extra “flanges” on the first model. If you look at the screw hole on each side of a 1st and 3rd model they are in different places. 1st and 2nd have the hole under the hammer screw. I’ve seen estimates saying the 2nd model went to 89 and 90 thousand.

Image

Top rifle is 1st model; middle 2nd model in question; bottom is a 3rd model. Notice the screws above the trigger on the first two and the screw towards the back on the bottom one.

7. IF the 20" 32 cal barrel has a nice bore, and IF it were mine, and IF I wanted another Turnbull'd receiver here is what I would do (since you asked). Yes I did and thank you for your thoughts and opinions.

Yes the sight starts ¾” from the muzzle. It is an octagon. Tenon matches the location of my other rifles.

I like your short rifle with a short mag tube. I already have an “L” carbine rear sight. With all the marks on the barrel I don’t think I will put a lot in finishing it. Something more to protect it.

Image

8. I guess step one… That’s interesting about the parts Turnbull will and won’t use. Not worth the extra money for original parts if they will be replaced. Once repro toggle and such are added what is the point in paying twice as much for original side plates.

9. I have found life is too short... Completely agree. Wife reminds me of that also (she came up with the user name long ago by the way) There is only two guns I don’t shoot. This will become my deployment gun so I have some extra allowance to spend.
coyote nose
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Re: To build an 1873 or not...

Post by coyote nose »

Well I feel stupid! Forgot all about the change in hammer pivot pin vs screw as well as the lower tang screw locations between the 2nd and 3rd model! Thanks for the education and the pictures. Those rifles you have are nice, I never owned a first model, and your 3rd model looks in better shape than any I have owned.

I did get out my Pirkle book and my Madis book. They state that the "step" in the receiver is only on 32 rifles, 38 rifles and carbines, and mid to late 44 short rifles and some carbines, so your 'stepped' receivers are most likely 38 cal receivers. Also, the strange cut near the end of the barrel that you took a picture of is for the lip of the magazine end cap plug. That is most likely a cut down barrel as the magazine rotary dovetail is usually cut about 3 or 3 1/2" behind the muzzle, so if someone cut 2 3/4" off the muzzle end the dovetail for the mag tube the dovetail would wind up around 1/4" from the muzzle as your picture shows.

I would call Turnbull and ask if they reuse internal parts. I was under the impression from what reading I have done about them that they do not. I think from a liability standpoint too, they would be considered 'remiss' lets say, if they rebuild a gun for a customer and wind up using 150 year old toggle links, but again, I am not 100% sure on this. By the way, Lee Shaver (https://stores.leeshavergunsmithing.com ... inchester/) makes new links for these rifles so a good source is out there. I wish he made them for the 1876!! But back to Turnbull, I called them a few times and found them more than willing to talk guns with me, so you should find a talk with them very informative. They even told me the direction to polish each and every part, and told me what grit size to start and finish with. Very helpful crew they have there.
"...for there is a cloud on my horizon...and its name is progress." E. Abbey, 1958
gunlovebirds1024
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Re: To build an 1873 or not...

Post by gunlovebirds1024 »

I probably didn't explain it well. Feel the same way though. Kept staring at that barrel thinking it was for a barrel band screw but, how could it work. Too close to the edge. Seems so obvious now that you say end cap.

I emailed Turnbull to see what they say. I think i'm going to go ahead and get one redone.
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