.44-40 BP reloading

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Carlsen Highway
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.44-40 BP reloading

Post by Carlsen Highway »

Guys,
(This is for a .44-40 Rossi 20 inch carbine.)

How do you compress the powder in your black powder loads?

I have a very accurate load with jacketed bullets and BP - I am trying to get the similar accuracy with lead cast bullets. I am not getting great accuracy with straight BP and soft lead bullets

I have discovered by testing that the way I was compressing the load before I seated the bullet is creating inaccuracy. I was compressing a charge of 36 grains of 3F in an unsized case with a jacketed bullet, pulling it out, then seated a soft lead bullet on top and giving it a light crimp.
I cant seat and compress it with the cast bullet, because its pure lead with 2% tin and it will squish.

John Kort and I were both doing the same thing compressing the powder with another jacketed bullet, I think he was using a .38/40 bullet and I was using a .44 bullet, (but not sizing the case, so I have enough room to do that.) and then pulling it out.

With my testing I discovered that an accurate load I use with jacketed bullets (where I can compress it with the bullet itselt with sized cases) wil give me a one inch group at 100 yards, but when I load the same with an unsized case, and compress the powder with a separate bullet, and then seat the same kind of jacketed bullet - I then get 3.5 inch groups.

IT may be the unsized case, or it may be the compressing method, or it may be both. I am picking that when I pull the bullet out I am creating bullet runout. OR a neck tension thing.


How else can you compress powder before seating the bullet?
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Ray Newman
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Re: .44-40 BP reloading

Post by Ray Newman »

Powder compression plug from Buffalo Arms -- https://www.buffaloarms.com/44-40-wcf-c ... 40rcp.html

"If you are compressing your black powder in your cartridge more then about 1/10" you should using our powder compression die. Do not use your cast lead bullet to compress your powder charge more then 1/10" or you will be risking damaging your bullets. Our powder compression stems come with an lock collar and are made to fit the RCBS or Lyman Expander Die Body. You can use the ones that come in your reloading dies or purchase one separately (see item #LYM711300A or LYM7113001A) to make a complete compression die assembly."

Buffalo Arms sells compression dies for many Black Powder rifle and pistol calibres.

Have no idea if such a die could be shipped to New Zealand. However, take a look at the die pictured and someone with a lathe could probably shop fabricate something similar. Or maybe chuck a piece of appropriate sized drill rod in a drill press, set the quill travel to the desired depth to compress the powder, and utilize that to set the compression depth??
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Re: .44-40 BP reloading

Post by M. M. Wright »

Most of the time I just let the bullet give me about .1 inch compression. This is with my 20:1 cast bullets sized .429. It's the biggest bullet that will chamber in my Colts and even then I must use Starline or Winchester brass. If I were just loading for my 73s I would use bigger bullets. Now I have 2 Uberti and 2 Winchester 73s. The Ubertis have .429 groove diameter but both Winchesters have .431 groove diameters. One is from 1896 and the other is a Miroku made one from about 3 years ago. Why????

Have you slugged your barrel? I ask because what you (I'm talking to Carlsen here) are experiencing sounds just like what would happen if you have a loose barrel bore. Jacketed bullets shoot OK but cast Pb is not so good. By the way, both my Winchesters are SRCs, just made 120+ years apart. Did they just send an old original to Japan and tell them to copy it and the Japanese even copied the bore size?

When I make up accurate loads I use an over powder wad and compress on my shotgun loader which has a spring loaded compression gauge on it. I made a plug to go in the case to work under the shotgun press.

Image
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Re: .44-40 BP reloading

Post by Ray »

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Last edited by Ray on Fri Feb 11, 2022 5:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: .44-40 BP reloading

Post by Ray Newman »

Carlsen Highway: something just occurred to me about your procedure. Do you utilize a drop tube to slowly pour the powder into the case?

About 30 years ago, I had a .44-40 WCF brass framed Henry rifle. I utilized a 24 inch copper powder drop tube to slowly drop the powder into the cartridge case. Slowly dropping the powder from 2 feet caused the powder granules to settle into a shorter powder column than just dumping it into the cartridge case and less compression was needed. I set the powder compression on my drill press with bolt in the chuck then locked the quill depth in place. I made up a "master cartridge case" with cornmeal and a wad glued in place.

At the time, I loaded .45-70 Trapdoor and my .45-2.4" (AKA as a .45-90) Sharps rifle using the same drop tube to uniformly settle/pack the Black Powder. On whim I tried it for the .44-40 and it worked the same. Believe the over the powder wads were cut from thin cardboard or playing card stock.To help with fouling control, also believe I soaked the thin cardboard in melted bullet lube before punching out the wads.

Cannot recall where I purchased the punch, but it is similar to: https://www.buffaloarms.com/hammer-type ... rifle.html

The drop tube, mounted to a wood stand, has he appropriate calibre shell holder to hold the cartridge and prevent any spilling while dropping the powder. I bored hole to hold the shell holder and a small wood screw secures it.
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Re: .44-40 BP reloading

Post by Shasta »

Our late member Jack Kort aka w30wcf wrote an excellent article on black powder in the 44-40 that may be helpful to you. Here is a link:

viewtopic.php?t=62009


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Re: .44-40 BP reloading

Post by Ray Newman »

Shasta: thanks for that link! A great deal of helpful information there.
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Re: .44-40 BP reloading

Post by M. M. Wright »

I often use a drop tube when loading my larger black powder rifle cartridges like 45-70 and 45-90 but don't regularly use it with my 44-40 stuff. Oh I have and I think it makes for less fouling but most of my 44-40 is for SASS and it's just too much trouble especially when you consider that it just doesn't require that much accuracy. When there is a long range, pistol caliber rifle match I may make up something special and use the drop tube and careful compression like I do for my hunting loads which also get 30:1 bullets sized .431 so that they fit my guns barrels. Just for info, I use SPG lube.
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Carlsen Highway
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Re: .44-40 BP reloading

Post by Carlsen Highway »

I will have to have a look at that compression die. Maybe you are right, I could fabricate something...
I had corresponded a lot with John Kort over loading the .44WCF and .30WCF too before he passed away.

I know about drop tubes and so forth and don't use them but have sorted out my own way of doing it similar to what John was doing with his.

I have done so many tests over the years I am sure I have done this test already. I have two notebooks on loading the .44-40. ITs been a long time since I used a jacketed bullet actually though.

I am going to have to do some more testing...I just wish I could get straight black powder loads to shoot better than they do with my cast bullets.
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Re: .44-40 BP reloading

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

I use a Lyman 310 tool to load my black powder .50-70 loads. I use the standard techniques of drop tube etc...

But I had a powder compression plug made for the 310 tool and it works like a charm. I imagine the same kind of thing could be done on other presses, but I don't think you have to compress the powder too much to get good results. At least that has been my experience with Goex Cartridge.
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Re: .44-40 BP reloading

Post by KWK »

Carlsen Highway wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:46 pmI have a very accurate load with jacketed bullets and BP
I, for one, would be interested in learning more about that load.
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Re: .44-40 BP reloading

Post by Carlsen Highway »

KWK,

The Load is inspired by the old time target shooters from the turn of the last century, after smokeless Dupont powder was in use but Black powder was still used also. So around 1903 - 1910ish. I think John Kort brought it to my attention.
It is a duplex load of smokeless priming underneath a load of black powder, all of it compressed as normal so that it forms a cake. The smokeless cant migrate anywhere.
It consists of 6 grains of H4227 underneath 32 grains of 3F black powder. All compressed when seating the jacketed bullet about 0.2 inch in order to seat to the crimp cannelure. Cases sized normally and I give it a light crimp.

Any black powder works, I have tried Goex, Scheutzen and a local powder here called Holy SMoke. All work the same. This load will generate about the same velocity as 36 grains of BP on its own (around 1200 fps depending on the rifle) but is very accurate. With jacketed bullets (200 and 240 grain XTP and 250 grain Sierra Siluette Match) I can shoot 1 inch groups at 109 yards. (I shoot with either open sights I carefully fashion to my own satisfaction, or I will use a Receiver peep sight. At 100 yards I get the same result either way.)
The smokeless priming (as I think of it) is quite specific - exactly 6 grains. Half a grain less and half a grain more results in dire accuracy.

It is a very accurate load. There is no lube involved, although I cant recall if I tried it with a lube cookie. I probably have. I have done nearly everything you can think of with a .44 WCF. LOL
The hard jacketed bullet seems to clear the fouling away on its own, enough for a three - four shot group anyway. After four shots I think it starts fouling quickly.

This is the load to shoot if you want to impress people with how well old lever action guns in .44 WCF shoot with black powder...

(Out of interest Townsend Whelen wrote of loading his Winchester 1895 in .40/70 with the same type of duplex loading as I have described here in his story "Red Letter Days in British Columbia"

I want to try something similar with the .303...
Last edited by Carlsen Highway on Fri May 14, 2021 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: .44-40 BP reloading

Post by KWK »

Thank you.
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Re: .44-40 BP reloading

Post by Drawdown »

Carlsen, this is (scratching my head interesting) to me cause I'm new to reloading the 30-30. And I have "Red letters days in B.C." here have read it 25 times, and all along I thought Whelen meant the primers.
So he put 6 grains smokeless powder underneath 30+ grains blackpowder? I would've thought this crazy!
I'm just been thinking of reloading and shooting cast in my 30-30s after getting a lotta help & directions on here. This is some more interesting stuff I've learned about reloading on here!
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Re: .44-40 BP reloading

Post by Bryan Austin »

40gr by weight of this particular batch of Swiss FFg. Filled, tap settled and then compressed with a compression die. Starline Brass
47688075_1067971946716721_2457220170943299584_n (2).jpg
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Re: .44-40 BP reloading

Post by Carlsen Highway »

Drawdown wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 1:45 pm Carlsen, this is (scratching my head interesting) to me cause I'm new to reloading the 30-30. And I have "Red letters days in B.C." here have read it 25 times, and all along I thought Whelen meant the primers.
So he put 6 grains smokeless powder underneath 30+ grains blackpowder? I would've thought this crazy!
I'm just been thinking of reloading and shooting cast in my 30-30s after getting a lotta help & directions on here. This is some more interesting stuff I've learned about reloading on here!

On that trip, Whelen was using a Winchester 95 in .40-70. HIs companioin was shooting a Winchester 94 in .38/55.
I forget the exact wording, I will look it up at home, but he was loading the ammo for both rifles with a duplex loadas I have described - a smokeless 'priming' and then the black powder load over the top of that.
Those figures for the load 6 grains of smokeless etc are from my own load for my .44-40. Whelen does not mention exactly what his load consisted of. It would have Dupont bulk smokeless No.2 powder, and a high quality black powder that we no longer have access to. Swiss would be closest.
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Re: .44-40 BP reloading

Post by Bryan Austin »

Drawdown wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 1:45 pm Carlsen, this is (scratching my head interesting) to me cause I'm new to reloading the 30-30. And I have "Red letters days in B.C." here have read it 25 times, and all along I thought Whelen meant the primers.
So he put 6 grains smokeless powder underneath 30+ grains blackpowder? I would've thought this crazy!
I'm just been thinking of reloading and shooting cast in my 30-30s after getting a lotta help & directions on here. This is some more interesting stuff I've learned about reloading on here!

Here is some information on the Duplex loads. Today we use "Duplex" loads to replicate yeasteryears "Lesmok" loads.

https://sites.google.com/view/44winches ... plex-loads
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Re: .44-40 BP reloading

Post by Drawdown »

Thank you both! I will keep this info. I doubt I'll ever use it, but then again I doubted I'd ever reload to begin with, so? Whelen Mod 95 was a 40-72 just to clarify the exact caliber, but until now I was totally confused about his wording of how he reloaded their ammo for that trip!
I've kept some pics of his Mod 95 I found a long time ago. There is a great video on YouTube where you can see his Mod 95. "Curators Corner, Townsend Whelen Mod 95 Winchester".
I may not worded that title exact but its something similar.
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Re: .44-40 BP reloading

Post by Drawdown »

I have most of Whelen books, treasure them. I don't have "Why not load your own". Is it of any help or an interesting read that any of you have read?
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Re: .44-40 BP reloading

Post by AmBraCol »

Drawdown wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 7:21 am I have most of Whelen books, treasure them. I don't have "Why not load your own". Is it of any help or an interesting read that any of you have read?
I got a Kindle sample of "Why not load your own", and found it very interesting. I'd love to have a copy of it, along with the rest of his books. I should be picking up a copy of "The American Rifle" by Whelen this time I'm up north. It is very dated but has a LOT of useful information in certain sections. It was published in 1918 and a lot of the information is obsolete as we no longer have access to the original powders he describes (for which I'm thankful, we've got far better powders now) and have formulations that allow for non-corrosive loads and a lower maintenance burden. What I really liked was a quick breakdown he did on costs for reloading. When correcting for inflation it became obvious why so many old timers bought a rifle and a box of cartridges and didn't buy any more until they were out or almost out - which would take a couple of decades at one or two shots a year to bring home the venison. His cost on primers, for example, would be over $9 per hundred today, which reset my "I'll buy them at up to "X" price if I find them" parameters. It used to be $30 (in recent history) but suddenly a Benjamin for a brick of primers isn't as scandalous when looked at in terms of historical costs.
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Re: .44-40 BP reloading

Post by Drawdown »

I have "The. American Rifle", and it is loaded with detailed reloading data for most all the old rifles, and the modern of that time-1918.
One thing I'd be very interested to know is the ballistic info of his reloads in their rifles for that trip to B.C., and especially the 38-55 used by Andrew's! Whelen doesn't mention it in "Red Letter Days in B.C.", but it's clear from reading his stuff elsewhere from searching, that he also took a Mod 94 in 30-30. I read a clear comment of his from a hunt in B.C. which one IDK, that they where on the go with the pack horses when he saw a Grizzly. He got off, took a shot with the 30-30. The bear i belive just ran off with no indication of a hit. Then Whelen realized the rifle was still loaded with reduced loads which he used often in it for grouse.
But he stated he took many mule deer and smaller game with the 30-30. Again, on which trip and in which year IDK?
And how did they determine velocity back then, there was no radar??
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Re: .44-40 BP reloading

Post by Carlsen Highway »

Drawdown wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 7:21 am I have most of Whelen books, treasure them. I don't have "Why not load your own". Is it of any help or an interesting read that any of you have read?
Your welcome, from the New Zealand Handloaders Association. :)

http://www.nzha.co.nz/wp-content/upload ... otLoad.pdf


I remember one line from the book - (rubbishing accuracy claims by other gun writers of the period) "Anyone who has a rifle that will shoot a 1.5 inch group at 100 yards has a jewel of a rifle and load.
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Re: .44-40 BP reloading

Post by Drawdown »

Thank you kindly Carlsen for that link!
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Re: .44-40 BP reloading

Post by DaveInPA »

Hello. I'm mostly a lurker here but this is how I load BP .44 WCF:

* Starline brass
* CCI or Federal LPP
* 2.2cc of BP measured with a Lee dipper, preferably Swiss 3Fg, but I've also used Goex 2Fg and 3Fg because I have a stash. (2.2cc is approximately 35 grains.)
* Bullet cast from an Accurate Molds 43-215C lubed with 50/50 beeswax/mutton tallow and sized to .429". This bullet is John Kort's design. In a 1:20 alloy it averages 219 grains.

After charging the cases I tap my loading block several times to settle the powder. I then seat the bullets with no separate compression step.

From the 24" barrel of my Cimarron 1873 Sporting Rifle, this load averages a bit over 1300 FPS and groups into ~2" at 50 yards from the bench. That's as good as I can shoot with open sights.

I also sometimes do a reduced load with 1.9cc (~28 grains of powder) which should more or less duplicate the .44 Henry rimfire load. I mostly shoot these in my Cimarron 1860 Henry or Uberti Bisley. This has a bit less recoil and noise than the full power loads. The lesser recoil is nice when shooting the Bisley. Because I want 100% loading density with BP, I use 0.5cc of cornmeal for a filler, OR a 1/8" thick .430" diameter nitro card from Circle Fly between the powder and bullet. Loading the nitro card isn't as tedious as dipping the cornmeal and 1K cards cost only about $10 from Track of the Wolf.

BTW, that 43-215C is the bee's knees. It carries a lot of lube and I've put up to 100 rounds through the 1873 Sporting Rifle in one session without the bore fouling out. Cleanup is easy using a "moose milke" of either Ballistol and water or water soluble machinist's oil and water. About 25% oil/75% water.
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Re: .44-40 BP reloading

Post by Carlsen Highway »

Dave,
That bullet is the exact same on I use. 43 215C from Accurate molds. I got a two cavity mold with that and another design 43 210B think it was. It also shoots well, I use it for smokeless only though.

John made the 43 215C by taking the Winchester traditional bullet design from 1873 and machineing out the lube groove until it held enough lube for modern powders. With 36 grains of 3F I get 1200fps in a 20 inch barrel.

I have shot three red deer with this bullet in 1:50 alloy pure lead/tin and it killed all of them outright. It was a Uberti '73 rifle as well.

I leave the bullets as they drop from the mold, with this alloy they come out clean and sharp and measure .431 with this amount of tin.

I need to shoot my .44-40 tomorrow. I have a 5 day trip for fallow deer coming up in a week and I am thinking what rifle to take....
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Re: .44-40 BP reloading

Post by Drawdown »

Good luck on your trip Carlsen! And looking forward to another good report from the other side of the world, and hopefully with a levergun!
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