Is it time for a new......

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Ray
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Is it time for a new......

Post by Ray »

Percussion revolver thread ?

Found this old one.....https://www.levergunscommunity.org/view ... =1&t=15701

Been recently experimenting with uberti pocket .31s and the historically incorrect pietta .44 1851.
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by JimT »

FIE copy of Colt 1849 Pocket Revolver .... .31 caliber
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Re: Is it time for a new......

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I feel the need for a duster type coat, a beat up hat, and a cigarillo.
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by AmBraCol »

Looking forward to digging out the Ruger Old Army in another month or so. Haven't shot it in far too long. I keep hearing the siren call of an 1851 Navy, 1860 Army and 1861 Navy... elegant weapons from a more civilized era...
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by Old Savage »

Paul, 1860 Army most elegant ever.
In the High Desert of Southern Calif. ..."on the cutting edge of going back in time"...

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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by Sarge »

Old Savage wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:28 pm
Paul, 1860 Army most elegant ever.
I agree 100%.

I got this 44 from a friend in California. It had lain negected for years before he aqcuired it and he cleaned “layer after layer of crud” from gun, the nipples and cylinder. It was loose as a goose he thought it unshootable. He gave it to me as a ‘parts gun’. Thw only markings are Italian blackpowder proofmarks and a date stamp that indicates 1978. It turned into an 'arbor on out' rebuild that came out real good. I gave it to my oldest son, last summer.

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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by Ray »

AmBraCol wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:36 am
Looking forward to digging out the Ruger Old Army in another month or so. Haven't shot it in far too long. I keep hearing the siren call of an 1851 Navy, 1860 Army and 1861 Navy... elegant weapons from a more civilized era...
Please email me that address.
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by JimT »

An old story from the sixgunner.com website of years past ...

44 Cap & Ball Remington

In 1863 Remington introduced what was to become the major competitor of the Colt 1860 Army Model, the Remington 1861 Army Revolver. These carry the patent date of December 17, 1861 and distinguished from the later models by a lack of safety notches on the rear of the cylinder and by a channel cut along the top of the loading lever. In combat this feature proved undesirable and the New Model (introduced in 1863) did not have it. The New Model carries the patent date of Sept. 14, 1858 and is marked "New Model". It has the safety notches between the nipples on the rear of the cylinder. This allowed the shooter to load all 6 chambers and then lower the hammer between the nipples for safe carry. The New Model was produced until 1875. It was the last of Remington's percussion revolvers.

My Dad had a number of them. The first was a "wallhanger" that had been plowed up by a neighbor. When he was 16 he went to Spokane and purchased a Remington .44 New Model and an 1860 Army Colt. The Remington proved much more accurate than the Colt. However it would also tie up from powder fouling quicker than the Colt. The Colt on the other hand had a problem with fired caps falling off into the rather large open area at the rear of the cylinder when the hammer is pulled to full-cock. A fired cap falling into there bound up the action. The Remington with its closed frame did not have that problem. Many oldtime gunmen would throw the Colt up nearly vertical while cocking the hammer. This had the effect of tossing any loose caps to the rear and kept them from dropping into the gun.

After WW II Dad bought a shipment of Remington .44's from the noted collector and author James Serven. These were all rejects as collector items having poor finishes and in need of mechanical repairs. Dad says he paid $10 each for load of them. He rebuilt some, remodeled others and then put them up for sale. Some were converted to .22 rimfire. Quite a few were cut to 6 1/2" barrel lengths from the original 8" length. Target sights were installed and the guns were sold to target shooters. At least one was converted to .357 Magnum. How it worked out I don't know.

In 1970 I decided I wanted a Remington .44 cap & ball sixgun. By then you could not touch an original Remington for $100 let alone $10 as Dad had done. I eventually bought an Italian-made replica that was imported by Hawes. Two things I immediately found to different from the originals. ONE: the bore was .445" instead of .452" as on the original. TWO: the rifling of the Italian-made gun was a straight twist instead of gain twist as in the Remingtons. And while it was a fun gun to shoot it did not live up to my expectations either as to power or accuracy.

In order to improve it I set about doing some modifications. The first was a decent set of sights. I silver-soldered a Smith & Wesson target front sight onto the barrel and then cut the shallow rear notch so that it became a nice square rather than the "V" as on the original. Good sights helped a lot. Measuring the chambers I found them to be extra tight, shrinking the ball a lot before it was even fired. The barrel proved to be tight at the throat and loose at the muzzle. I started with barrel, screwing it out of the frame and reaming a long, tapered throat in it. The "throat" was about 3" long, tapering from .456" a the breech down to .445". I reamed the chambers so I cold seat a .457" diameter ball in them.

The results were more along the lines of what I had hoped for. Velocity increased and accuracy improved. Your hands and ears could tell the difference. Before the change the gun would BOOM when it when off. Afterwards, a full load would make a CRACK when it fired. Shrinking the ball .011" really increased the efficiency of the powder. Apparent recoil was heavier also, although the cap & ball guns never really kicked like the big-bore cartridge guns do.

I experimented some with both 2Fg and 3Fg black powder as well as with Pyrodex. Pyrodex gave the 2nd highest velocities. The highest velocity was recorded using a Duplex load of 5 gr. 3Fg Black and a cylinder-full of Pyrodex on top of it with a ball compressed tightly onto it. You are on your own if you try this. I am not suggesting that you do so. This is for information purposes only. If you blow up your gun do not try to say I told you you could do it! One thing I did find out. Use too much Black powder with the Pyrodex and the hammer would blow back to full cock- while the ball was exiting the barrel. It was kind of hard on the lockwork. If you build too much pressure; not only does the hammer blow back, the top of the gun can depart to regions unknown.

The oldtimers who carried these guns in war and for self-defense were not in any way under-armed. They have a lot more power than one would think if they had not used one. I once saw a man shot with an 1860 Army .44. The ball took him in the lower stomach and went clean through. It bounced off the kitchen table, went through a cupboard door and stopped in a loaf of bread where we found it later. Then man dropped immediately. They got him to the hospital in time to save him but he was down for a long time. I do not know if he ever fully recovered.

One Javelina season I took my old .44 Remington-copy after the little pigs. I hunted the canyons until I spotted a herd, made a 300-yard stalk and got to within 30- 40 yards. One large pig was scratching his rear on a rock outcropping and was mostly sideways to me. I lined up the sights behind the right front shoulder and touched it off. Peering through the large cloud of smoke in front of me I could make out the pig, laying on the ground kicking. The ball had taken him behind the right shoulder, ranging forward and exiting the left side of the neck behind the ear. An instant "lights out". It was a fitting use of the fine old .44 cap & ball sixgun.

Some of the imports now have the gain-twist rifling of the originals. These are target-grade guns and you will pay accordingly. Very fine accuracy can be had with these. Seems we have come full circle. The Remington was popular in its day. It grew old and was almost forgotten. Then it was revived. I'm kind of glad. It is a pretty good old gun.

Chronographed velocities at 7 feet from muzzle to first screen
.445" diameter ball
38 gr. 2Fg ..........................951 fps
.
.456" diameter ball
38 gr. 2Fg............................992 fps
38 gr. 3Fg..........................1036 fps
full load of Pyrodex P.........1087 fps
Remington-Javelina.JPG
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

My first sixgun was an Italian .36 Navy. I shot a lot of rabbits with that gun (using Kentucky windage) and a round ball topped with a little Crisco.

It was not a very well built gun (this was the 1970s) but it did shoot to the same place every time I dropped the hammer. A useful tool.
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by piller »

Jim, those velocities were nothing to sneeze at. Sure, they were not in the magnum smokeless range, but they were not dawdling.
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by Sixgun »

1862 Colt Police...built in 1873, a very late one, possibly one of the last. Beer can accurate to 50 yards.

Image

Forgot about this one....Rogers and Spencer cartouched in 1865. I never could figure out how to load it and nor did anyone else. Thing is unfired for 156 years.

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Last edited by Sixgun on Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by Ray »

Just some of the .44s....

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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by AmBraCol »

Old Savage wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:28 pm
Paul, 1860 Army most elegant ever.
For me it's a toss up between the 1860 and 1861, with a bit of a nod towards the '61 due to the unrebated cylinder.
1861_Colt_Navy.jpg
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by Old Savage »

Wouldn't argue, splitting hairs finer than I split the them. The Colt Model P in there too.
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Jim, thanks for resurrecting that article on the .44 Remington. Seems you were doing "Taylor throating" more than 50 years ago!
My first handgun of any kind was a Hawes 1851 Colt with brass frame. I was in high school and had to convince Dad to let me buy it from a little gun shop in the tiny redwood logging town of Scotia in Humboldt County, CA. We lived in Arcata at the time.
My memory is that it was in the neighborhood of $40 new. Every time I shot that sixgun with high school friends and later college, it was a clinic on loading and firing a cap and ball revolver, and every one of the guys who shot it were tickled with the thing and with the associated history.
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by AmBraCol »

Jim, thanks for reviving the article. I've thought a lot on that since first reading it back around the turn of the century. Your use of the gas from your duplex loads to cock the revolver is reminiscent of JM Browning's experiments in self loading arms, just coming from the opposite end from what he used. :lol: I sold my first Ruger Old Army to eliminate the urge for more experimentation. Now I THINK I've matured enough to not ignore certain warnings on them and am looking forward to making a bit of smoke this summer. Those old sixguns got a lot of folks into shooting, either the originals or the reproductions. I remember one of my uncles and his Italian built 1851 Navy back in the late 70's. He'd cast the balls himself, melting the lead on a Coleman stove. The entire process was fascinating to a kid, hope my grandson enjoys it as much this summer as I did back then.
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by Hawkeye2 »

"Forgot about this one....Rogers and Spencer cartouched in 1865. I never could figure out how to load it and nor did anyone else. Thing is unfired for 156 years."

The Rogers & Spencer loads exactly like a Remington or Whitney.
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by Ray »

Hawkeye2 wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:27 pm
"Forgot about this one....Rogers and Spencer cartouched in 1865. I never could figure out how to load it and nor did anyone else. Thing is unfired for 156 years."

The Rogers & Spencer loads exactly like a Remington or Whitney.
Even if the ramming system is not completely operational, if you can remove the cylinder, you can load it. Just loaded two this afternoon that have no rammer(s). Mallet and muzzleloader short-starter suffices.....
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by Jay Bird »

Six was being sarcastic. :D Only someone from Joe bidens family could not load near 200 year old gun technology. The gun is as crispy as the day it left the factory and for obvious reasons good ole Six don't want to put burn marks on the face of the cylinder.

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Re: Is it time for a new......

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Thank Birdman...I just tuned in.---6
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by Old No7 »

Gee, the Ysabel Kid ought to be along here soon since it's about Cap 'n Ball revolvers, but maybe he's busy...

Anyway, I'll play this game. :wink:

( Click any image to enlarge )
Here's my 1860 Army and 1862 Pocket Police
Colt 1860 Army and 1862 Police 02 (Small).jpg

And my 1861 Navy
Colt 1861 Navy - 3rd Gen 03 (Medium).jpg

Followed by my venerable Ruger Old Army
Old Army Stag Grips 02 (Medium).jpg

Which reminds me -- I gotta get out and make some smoke!

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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by gamekeeper »

I've been trying to ignore this thread... :( as I was very much addicted to cap n ball revolvers.
Luckily I only had black powder pistols when our over zealous government banned all the others. I converted a few pistol shooters to give BP a try as they always wanted to have a go with mine. Then I moved away and I sold my pistols and revolvers thinking I wouldn't need them anymore........wrong..... :roll:
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Re: Is it time for a new......

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gamekeeper wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:51 am
........and I sold my pistols and revolvers thinking I wouldn't need them anymore........wrong..... :roll:
"Need" is the wrong word John -- "want" is key!

That's how I justify what I add to my collection. :wink:

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Old No7 wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:11 am
gamekeeper wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:51 am
........and I sold my pistols and revolvers thinking I wouldn't need them anymore........wrong..... :roll:
"Need" is the wrong word John -- "want" is key!

That's how I justify what I add to my collection. :wink:

Old No7
Darryl, I couldn't agree more but every acquisition here requires hoops and conditions to comply with. Even a flintlock pistol has to be used on an approved MOD range.
It just makes life suck with big brother watching your every move, well that is the ones he can see... :wink:
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by Ray »

Riddle.....

What makes the term "green dot" apropos to this thread ?

Hint.....It has nothing to do with the abominable use of smokeless powder.

Hint.....it is absolutely essential for success.....
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by Griff »

My 2nd Gen Colt 1851s:
'51Navy&Bowie.jpg
I had them converted to Ruger plungers & coil handsprings, Manhattan gates and use SliXshot nipples for utter reliability!
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by Ray »

Might be time do dig-out the uberti walker.....

Shown here with vaquero for size comparison.....
IMG_20190115_163314_hdr_kindlephoto-64583094.jpg
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by AmBraCol »

That dwarfs even a Ruger Old Army, which is the largest modern cap and ball I can think of. How does it compare to a S&W X-frame? That's probably the only true competitor for size.
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Re: Is it time for a new......

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No wonder those were usually carried in saddle holsters. That much steel attached to your waist with a leather belt would make you tilt like a drunken 3 mast sailor.
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by Ray »

I recently found some winchester/olin #11 caps. To justify the haz. mat. extortion (they call me jack benny miser) I felt obligated to add some powder. I didn't really need any blackpowder and of course, as most of you know, smokeless powders are in short supply so I wound-up with some pyrodex 30 gr. pellets for revolvers.

Has anybody here tried them ?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dn9xjnQaff8
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Re: Is it time for a new......

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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by AmBraCol »

Ray wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 9:31 am
This is a bit different.....

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1002297696?pid=131995
Those are intriguing. Planning to get one to shoot your Pyrodex pellets through? :D I've seen various iterations of pelleted black powder substitutes, but never have tried any of them.
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by Ray »

AmBraCol wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 10:27 pm
Ray wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 9:31 am
This is a bit different.....

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1002297696?pid=131995
Those are intriguing. Planning to get one to shoot your Pyrodex pellets through? :D I've seen various iterations of pelleted black powder substitutes, but never have tried any of them.
No, high as I'll go on that particular model is $400 shipped. There is both shipping and sales tax collected by midway which would actually put it over $500. Not sure if it is worth that to me even though I find it mildly interesting.

We have used both the 50 gr. Pyrodex and 777 pellets (two at a time) in modern in-lines. With just about any coloured plastic sabot and corresponding .44 or .45 bullet they seem to work quite well at slaying deer at close ranges.

The pistol pellets (30 gr.) are new to me but have so far proved serviceable in a small (couple of cylinder fulls) number of samples.

It is said that these 50 gr. will even work in the horse colts with their longer cylinders.....

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/pr ... uctId/5623

They even seem to fit in the r.o.a. but space is limited, leaving no room for a wad.....

Mind, these are the .45 caliber 50 gr. pellets.....

Here joanie tests them.....Faintly, in the background, with a little imagination, you can here both banjo music and the theme of the "twilight zone".....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7S0b6h0sL5c
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by AmBraCol »

Haven't shot Pyrodex in any form since sometime in the late 20th Century. Those 50 grain pellets look interesting in a ROA. I'd probably want to smear a bit of Crisco or Bore Butter or other lubricant over the mouth of the chamber, don't know how much of that would be necessary and how much would be "old habits die hard". :lol: There's a lot to be said for preformed charges, whether wrapped in paper or solid pellets like those.
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