Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

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JOG
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Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by JOG »

Gentleman I need a few opinions on the possible purchase of a 1908 made Winchester 1886 in 33 wcf. It's not a collectable firearm, it has been restocked and reblued. I know that the caliber has been obsolete for 70 or 80 years. Hornady has stopped producing bullets for 33 wcf, so it would be tough even if I had the dies to reload for 33 wcf. Could it be rebarreled in 45-70 without to much trouble? I have a 2006 jm Marlin 1895 in 45-70 that I enjoy shooting! Whoever restocked the old 86 did a very nice job with one exception. Instead of putting a correct but plate on it they put a hard rubber shotgun style end on it. That doesn't work for me. I have long arms so I like the length of pull. I could always deal with that issue down the road. Any input from you guys that have such a wealth of knowledge would be greatly appreciated. The price is really good or I would just pass on this old classic!
Last edited by JOG on Sat Mar 06, 2021 5:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by piller »

What little I know of it is that it was a necked down .45-70. Rebarrelling should be straight forward. If you are into reloading, it uses the .338 diameter bullets. You would be limited to cast bullets due to lack of manufacturing by anyone I could find for appropriate jacketed flat nose bullets. If you like using cast bullets, and do reloading, it would probably be a fun caliber. Reloading dies would be a first step.

Either keeping it the original caliber, or rebarrelling if the price is good, would be good. If you do get it, hopefully it all works great.
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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by 6pt-sika »

I had a circa 1916ish Marlin 1895 in 33 WIN . I had a bunch of Hornady FN bullets for it but never fired the first one . I acquired with the help of someone here a two cavity Lyman GC mold . Thing shot very well with cast . At the time I had 45-70’s a 40-65 and a 38-56 as well as the 33 . And while it’s true all can be made from 45-70 brass I preferred the correct head stamp for the cartridge so I used Starline in the 40-65 and Quality Cartridge in the 38-56 as well as the 33 all stamped correctly which in my mind helped eliminate acccidents when I got in a hurry .
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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by 6pt-sika »

Dies for the 33 are no big deal the easiest , quickest and relatively economical route are CH-4D which is where the ones I had came from . Think they were about $75 15 or so years ago .
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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by 2ndovc »

I've had an '86 lightweight for about ten years or maybe a little more. I've been able to scrounge enough bullets, a mold to shoot cast if I like, and brass to last my lifetime. It's not an everyday plinker but I really enjoy hunting with it. Slams whitetail and boar like a sledge hammer. I have four 45-70s and I love the cartridge, but i love that old .33WCF and being the oddball. Since the one you're looking at has been so worked over, it probably wouldn't make all that much difference.

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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by Rockrat »

You could always send it to JES for re-boring/rifling/chambering to 45-70 or maybe even 50 alaskan. If I had an '86, it would be a 50 AK
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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by Sixgun »

NO 1886 is uncollectable.....some may have issues but each part is worth more than some whole rifles of other makes.......

Depends on the diameter of your soon-to-get 1886....these rifles are lightweights and as far as I know, don't have enough meat to be drilled and relined......I'm sure it can be done but most 'smiths will not attempt it for the same reason you can't get SCR's/carbines relined.

As the 33 is a cartridge of the "2000-2200 f.p.s." class you won't lose much in killing power using cast bullets as long as you know how to alloy.

It's a straight forward case forming operation but it needs forming dies which are in the $200 range. . I've been told that some people have been able to form them from a fls but once again, you really need to know what your doing as in case annealing.



Sometimes people bite off more than they can chew with an unknown rifle....I not saying this to you personally, but unless you really know what your doing or have someone to guide you, you don't want to keep sinking unlimited money into a project, leave it alone and get what you really want.-----006
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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by yooper2 »

I've always thought the 33wcf seemed like a very practical cartridge although I've never owned a rifle so chambered. I'd leave it alone and enjoy as is. Hawk Bullets makes appropriate bullets if your heart is set on jacketed.


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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by JOG »

Thanks everybody for your opinions! I 90% sure that I'm going to do some wheeling and dealing to get this old beauty! I've always loved the Winchester 1886 and 1892 & 1894!
I think it's best to leave the 33 wcf as is! I thought it would be a lot heaver than it was. The post 1900's model of certain calibers were lightweights. The barrels says smokeless so I guess I'm good to fire any type of powder out there. The double locking lug was perhaps the best Browning invention of them all.

The real problem for me will be finding any ammo for the 86! I don't reload at this point, but I guess it's the only way to really enjoy this Winchester! I do enjoy attending the gun shows whenever they start up again. I guess I'll be looking for 33 wcf. So it's only a matter of time and it's mine! I will post photos when I pick it up!
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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Trust me, it will be worth it to learn to reload this cartridge and you will have a hell of a good hunting rifle that you will enjoy.
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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by Sixgun »

JOG wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:57 am Thanks everybody for your opinions! I 90% sure that I'm going to do some wheeling and dealing to get this old beauty! I've always loved the Winchester 1886 and 1892 & 1894!
I think it's best to leave the 33 wcf as is! I thought it would be a lot heaver than it was. The post 1900's model of certain calibers were lightweights. The barrels says smokeless so I guess I'm good to fire any type of powder out there. The double locking lug was perhaps the best Browning invention of them all.

The real problem for me will be finding any ammo for the 86! I don't reload at this point, but I guess it's the only way to really enjoy this Winchester! I do enjoy attending the gun shows whenever they start up again. I guess I'll be looking for 33 wcf. So it's only a matter of time and it's mine! I will post photos when I pick it up!
When you get the rifle let me know......you send me the brass and I'll form and trim it for you....say 50 pieces for starters.....loaded ammo can be talked about.....

Lightweight and extra lightweights ALL have nickel steel barrels and these rifles only came in 33 and 45-70....any other caliber they were "in house specialities", not special orders.....somehow 2 45-90 extra lightweights wound up here.....
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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by yooper2 »

[/quote]

Lightweight and extra lightweights ALL have nickel steel barrels and these rifles only came in 33 and 45-70....any other caliber they were "in house specialities", not special orders.....somehow 2 45-90 extra lightweights wound up here.....
[/quote]

Interesting! Do they have a slower twist rate than the 45-70 extra lightweights or did they use normal 45-70 barrels? Seems like all the cool stuff winds up in Pennsylvania...


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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by OldWin »

You are doing right by leaving it a 33wcf. In my opinion, the cartridge has more utility in your locale.
I think it is a very underrated number. I have an 1886 in 45-90 that I never use. If I were to get another 86, I'd want an extra lightweight in 33wcf.
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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by JOG »

Sixgun wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 2:39 pm
JOG wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:57 am Thanks everybody for your opinions! I 90% sure that I'm going to do some wheeling and dealing to get this old beauty! I've always loved the Winchester 1886 and 1892 & 1894!
I think it's best to leave the 33 wcf as is! I thought it would be a lot heaver than it was. The post 1900's model of certain calibers were lightweights. The barrels says smokeless so I guess I'm good to fire any type of powder out there. The double locking lug was perhaps the best Browning invention of them all.

The real problem for me will be finding any ammo for the 86! I don't reload at this point, but I guess it's the only way to really enjoy this Winchester! I do enjoy attending the gun shows whenever they start up again. I guess I'll be looking for 33 wcf. So it's only a matter of time and it's mine! I will post photos when I pick it up!
When you get the rifle let me know......you send me the brass and I'll form and trim it for you....say 50 pieces for starters.....loaded ammo can be talked about.....

Lightweight and extra lightweights ALL have nickel steel barrels and these rifles only came in 33 and 45-70....any other caliber they were "in house specialities", not special orders.....somehow 2 45-90 extra lightweights wound up here.....
Thank you Sixgun! I guess 45-70 brass would be the way to go. I appreciate all the help!
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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by JOG »

OldWin wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 5:31 pm You are doing right by leaving it a 33wcf. In my opinion, the cartridge has more utility in your locale.
I think it is a very underrated number. I have an 1886 in 45-90 that I never use. If I were to get another 86, I'd want an extra lightweight in 33wcf.
Yea I agree with you OldWin, it's about perfect for big deer! I guess the 45-90 is overkill for whitetail! Unless you draw a moose permit.
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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by Sixgun »

JOG wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:36 pm Gentleman I need a few opinions on the possible purchase of a 1908 made Winchester 1886 in 33 wcf. It's not a collectable firearm, it has been restocked and reblued. I know that the caliber has been obsolete for 70 or 80 years. Hornady has stopped producing bullets for 33 wcf, so it would be tough even if I had the dies to reload for 33 wcf. Could it be rebarreled in 45-70 without to much trouble? I have a 2006 jm Marlin 1895 in 45-70 that I enjoy shooting! Whoever restocked the old 86 did a very nice job with one exception. Instead of putting a correct but plate on it they put a hard rubber shotgun style end on it. That doesn't work for me. I have long arms so I like the length of pull. I could always deal with that issue down the road. Any input from you guys that have such a wealth of knowledge would be greatly appreciated. The price is really good or I would just pass on this old classic!
Yes...JOG...45-70 brass......get the gun and we will take it from there...........I had this up last night and took it down.....I'll leave it up for a bit.
Made in 1905..full length mag...44 gr. of IMR 4895 and a 200 grain Hornady. The single action is a Colt in 38-40

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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by JOG »

Sixgun wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:52 pm
JOG wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:36 pm Gentleman I need a few opinions on the possible purchase of a 1908 made Winchester 1886 in 33 wcf. It's not a collectable firearm, it has been restocked and reblued. I know that the caliber has been obsolete for 70 or 80 years. Hornady has stopped producing bullets for 33 wcf, so it would be tough even if I had the dies to reload for 33 wcf. Could it be rebarreled in 45-70 without to much trouble? I have a 2006 jm Marlin 1895 in 45-70 that I enjoy shooting! Whoever restocked the old 86 did a very nice job with one exception. Instead of putting a correct but plate on it they put a hard rubber shotgun style end on it. That doesn't work for me. I have long arms so I like the length of pull. I could always deal with that issue down the road. Any input from you guys that have such a wealth of knowledge would be greatly appreciated. The price is really good or I would just pass on this old classic!
Yes...JOG...45-70 brass......get the gun and we will take it from there...........I had this up last night and took it down.....I'll leave it up for a bit.
Made in 1905..full length mag...44 gr. of IMR 4895 and a 200 grain Hornady. The single action is a Colt in 38-40

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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by OldWin »

JOG wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 5:43 pm
OldWin wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 5:31 pm You are doing right by leaving it a 33wcf. In my opinion, the cartridge has more utility in your locale.
I think it is a very underrated number. I have an 1886 in 45-90 that I never use. If I were to get another 86, I'd want an extra lightweight in 33wcf.
Yea I agree with you OldWin, it's about perfect for big deer! I guess the 45-90 is overkill for whitetail! Unless you draw a moose permit.
I didn't even use it then! I opted for my 71 for my moose. I don't shoot that one either. Too big for deer. And, I don't care for pistol grip stocks.
That is why the ELW 86 appeals to me.
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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by fordwannabe »

Jog, I have two 86’s in 33 and it is a bit of a learning curve but very rewarding caliber. Six has the stuff for reforming and he is a good guy(sometimes he hides it). Hawk has the bullets, keep an eye on gun sites and the Hornady bullets do come up occasionally but they ain’t cheap. Best part of a 33wcf... telling people NO, I did mean a 33 not a 33 special, and then educating them about old calibers that were invented BEFORE the AR15. :shock: :lol: If I may be of help let me know.
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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

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NSA already has the photo. Count on it. No need to take it down. ;-)
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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

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Old Savage wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:53 pm NSA already has the photo. Count on it. No need to take it down. ;-)
Yep.....they are building a data base with facial recognition.......but they already have that from our drivers license....

Thanks guys.....long time ago that photo.....I was 49 years old.....I still look the same but my hair is gray. That picture was taken at 10,000 ft. elevation and it's a near straight up climb from base camp which was 9,000......I really lucked out....well, luck just follows me around.......right after I cleaned and semi quartered it a guy comes riding by on a horse and a plastic sled.....we bs'ed a bit and told me him and his buds had no luck.....I pulled out some loot and handed him a c-note and asked if he wanted to pull the elk back to our truck which was near two miles away........"sure"...that's some serious drinking money.....

Saved me and my son a full days work taking a quarter at a time.....closest we could get with the truck was about 3/4 mile away.
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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by JOG »

fordwannabe wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:25 pm Jog, I have two 86’s in 33 and it is a bit of a learning curve but very rewarding caliber. Six has the stuff for reforming and he is a good guy(sometimes he hides it). Hawk has the bullets, keep an eye on gun sites and the Hornady bullets do come up occasionally but they ain’t cheap. Best part of a 33wcf... telling people NO, I did mean a 33 not a 33 special, and then educating them about old calibers that were invented BEFORE the AR15. :shock: :lol: If I may be of help let me know.
Thank you Fordwannabe! All this information on the 33wcf is great! There's a whole lot of old school firearm knowledge on Leverguns.com.
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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by M. M. Wright »

Pretty sure I have a couple boxes of 33 jacketed bullets somewhere. I'll look and let you know.
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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by Marvin S »

Do not use the load data in the old hornady fourth edition, especially for IMR3031. Way too hot
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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by Sixgun »

Marvin S wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:04 pm Do not use the load data in the old hornady fourth edition, especially for IMR3031. Way too hot

You must be talking about "42 gr. of 3031". Yes ..in my early days of the 33 I used that load extensively. As I bought other '86's in that caliber it would sometimes lock up the action and being 20 something I didn't understand......you figure most hunting is in cold weather and cold weather brings down pressures I never had a problem with the solid frame pictured above but takedowns would lock up in any weather......IF I put notches on a 33 the one above wouldn't have room for varnish...

If you go back to the early Lyman manuals that were printed in the fifties you will see a load for Hi-Vel #2. This powder was discontinued by the time I started reloading but could be found if you kept your eyes open.....well, I found it and put in whatever it said to get 2400 and upon firing the gun locked up with a case separation. I since went to IMR 4895 or 4064......some guys like 4350 but I consider that too slow for use in cold weather.----006

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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by JOG »

M. M. Wright wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 11:54 am Pretty sure I have a couple boxes of 33 jacketed bullets somewhere. I'll look and let you know.
Thank you M.M. Wright! I do appreciate it sir!
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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by JOG »

I would like a mid level load that's easy on the 113 year old 86.
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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by Sixgun »

JOG wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:20 pm I would like a mid level load that's easy on the 113 year old 86.

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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by OldWin »

You will find that if you hunt the woods, you won't have to push that slug very fast. Accuracy and consistency is way more important than velocity. The 33wcf is a hard hitter and was pretty popular back in the day. IMO, the only reason for its premature demise is because in a short time bullet and cartridge development improved enough to make cartridges of that size less needed for deer, which is really the most hunted game.
Everyone talks about big bears and big game, but in reality, most hunting is for deer and medium game. These are always the cartridges that are most popular. That is why there are so many 94 and 336 carbines.
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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by CowboyTutt »

As always, I'm amazed at the expert knowledge here at LG with its members. I had to look up the cartridge to even begin with??? As soon as I read the OP, I went to Hawk bullets as I suspected they might make a bullet for it, and they do. But it also looks like they can make whatever you might need in .338 caliber as they offer other bullets in the same caliber. In fact, depending on your barrel twist rate, this cartridge can get really, really interesting for bullet weight for hand loading! As someone who is lambasted all the time by a Moderator here for being too esoteric, I have to admit, this cartridge is worth looking at. That being said, my 358 Win in a BLR already does it all in this range. Working on a custom 303 Brit load for ultra long range shooting. -Tutt
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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by OldWin »

CowboyTutt wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:50 pm As always, I'm amazed at the expert knowledge here at LG with its members. I had to look up the cartridge to even begin with??? As soon as I read the OP, I went to Hawk bullets as I suspected they might make a bullet for it, and they do. But it also looks like they can make whatever you might need in .338 caliber as they offer other bullets in the same caliber. In fact, depending on your barrel twist rate, this cartridge can get really, really interesting for bullet weight for hand loading! As someone who is lambasted all the time by a Moderator here for being too esoteric, I have to admit, this cartridge is worth looking at. That being said, my 358 Win in a BLR already does it all in this range. Working on a custom 303 Brit load for ultra long range shooting. -Tutt

Excellent! This is kind of my point (in regards to your .358 Winchester).
The model 71 and the .348wcf was a replacement and product improvement of the 1886 Extra Lightweight in 33wcf.
The model 88 in the .358 Winchester was a replacement and product improvement of the 71 in .348.
There was a lot of improvements in firearms and ballistics from 1902 to the 1950s. Couple of world wars and countless lesser conflicts will do that.
"Oh bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round.
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Re: Thinking of picking up a 1886 Winchester in 33wcf

Post by Rockrat »

Saw my first 33wcf about 50 years ago, in Detroit Lakes, MN. Sporting goods store had one on the shelf. I really wanted it, but was only 17 at the time and they wouldn't sell it to me.
Don't forget that IIRC, Hornady had .338" FTX bullets for the 338 Marlin Express, that might work in your 33WCF.
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