Marlin 94 Stainless conundrum.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Since I'm not going anywhere today, it was a good day to clean guns and work on projects in the garage.

Back in a corner I found an old .44 Magnum Marlin 94 in stainless steel. I remember buying it, and I put a Skinner peep sight on the top of the reciever. I shot it some, but for some reason that I do not recall, I put the gun away and it has been gathering dust ever since. It is a pre-Remington and it has nice wood. Frankly I wish I knew why I put it away.

It was covered in dust and the lever was stiff (probably any oil in there has long coagulated) so I took it down and cleaned it up. I worked the lever several hundred times to slick it up and I tried running some Skeeter loads through it to see if it would feed. They fed as slick as you could want.

So I am sitting here feeling a little foolish because I do not have a clue why I put this gun away.

Did you ever put something away and later wonder why you did it?

Found this nice article too:

https://leverguns.com/articles/lee_marlin44.htm

[hondo1892]

You wanted to send it to me but lost my address.

[.45colt]

I call that a "someday Gun"......I have a bunch of them , and I am to the point that someday is here. I don't have to go far to find them....if I can..... .

[Scott Tschirhart]

That might be exactly right. I think that maybe I had a problem with it and set it aside, and then Marlin came on hard times and Remington bought them out. But I simply cannot find fault with the gun.

Perhaps I was getting away from the .44 mag cartridge at the time? I just don't remember.

I had a 94 in .44 mag that I used back in the 1980s and I shot that rifle a lot. My brother had (and still has) one in .357 that he carried around all the time. I was less experienced in those days and recoil was an issue. Today, after shooting big bore guns for so many years, I don't find pistol caliber carbines to be very difficult as far as recoil is concerned.

[2ndovc]

I was digging around my closet a few years ago and picked up a small backpack that I hadn't used in years. It felt heavier than it should have. Inside was a British proofed Colt official Police and a Buck Pathfinder. No idea why they were in there or how long. I don't even remember buying the Colt. It was probably cheap and lying on a table at one of the Ohio Gun Collector's shows, stuffed it in my bag at the end of the show and there it stayed.

jb

[OldWin]

You guys must have way more money than me.
I can't afford to forget about any of my guns.

[Grizz]

gave my son a 94 for his first deer hunt. he made lots and lots and lots of meat with that carbine. i made some meat with it too. wish i'd bought a dozen of them. if they could stabilize a 405gr cast bullet I could leave the 45/70 home.

[Blaine]

I'll probably move my blued, early 70s 1994, 44 down the road one of these days. I have a nice .444 Marlin that kicks about the same as the lighter '94 and is MUCH more accurate.
Grizz could shoot my '94 like a laser beam...I never had that much luck with it.

[Ray Newman]

Blaine: your Marlin '94 .44 Magnum -- what is the heaviest bullet the barrel will stabilize? Somewhere I recall reading and others stated that "early" Marlins would only shoot the "lighter" 240 grain .44 Magnum bullets?? Let me know when it looks for a new good home.

[Blaine]

Blaine: your Marlin '94 .44 Magnum -- what is the heaviest bullet the barrel will stabilize? Somewhere I recall reading and others stated that "early" Marlins would only shoot the "lighter" 240 grain .44 Magnum bullets?? Let me know when it looks for a new good home.

Back in the day, I had 45-70s, and the .444. I didn't need to use anything but the 240.....I recall loading some Hornady 265s but never really shot them on paper. (I think you already looked at this one, and it didn't suit your purposes?)

[Ray Newman]

Blaine: I thought I coon-fingered your "Triple Four"?? Or, am I just confused at my advanced age? Anway, keep me in mind.

[Blaine]

Blaine: I thought I coon-fingered your "Triple Four"?? Or, am I just confused at my advanced age? Anway, keep me in mind.

It was the 1894....You wanted the octagonal barrel, I think...Maybe.... Heck, I can't remember what I had for breakfast yesterday.

[Grizz]

twist rate on the 94s i've seen is 1:38. someone told me their 94 would stabilize 300gr, but the one my son has will not. browning 92s have the same stinking slow twist. i have never found a reason or an excuse for that, or for microgroove rifling for that matter. by the time the gun was rebarreled with 1:20 or 1:16 even, for shooting the long heavies, i would probably have doubled the cost of the rifle. which is why i focused on 45/70. as far as 444s go, THAT ONE hits me harder than anything else i shoot. my 338 win mag was soft shooting compared to my son's 444. And my 45/70 with long heavies has less recoil than either of those two....

[Grizz]

postscript. i just went over to the ruger forum to read the discussion of the 1:38 twist rate and got an edjucation concerning bullet weights and how hard it is to spin up a heavy bullet and saami and blah blah blah.

the concensus appeared to be that rifle makers know what they are doing and shooters do not. so ruger and saami are right, ya hear?

of course they didn't have me around to ask why 45 Colt rifles don't have 1:38 barrels. and 41mag do not have 1:38 barrels that i know of.

so, poppycock

Heh

[AJMD429]

...of course they didn't have me around to ask why 45 Colt rifles don't have 1:38 barrels. and 41mag do not have 1:38 barrels that i know of.

Yeah, and both of my Ruger 44 Magnum carbines - the 77/44, and the 96/44, I believe have 1:20 twist, so 'it can be done'....

[Grizz]

i know, right? i just cannot fathom why the leverguns got saddled with that crazy slow twist. even chubby checkers could twist faster than that.

[Scott Tschirhart]

That would be an interesting research project. There has to be a reason why this slow twist rate was chosen.

It is interesting that a twist would be chosen that does not even get one full rotation of the bullet in a 20 inch carbine barrel.

I don't think I need more than a 255 gr Keith for anything in South Texas and I have never worried about 300 plus grain bullets in the .44 mag. But here is an interesting article on the subject:

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell44OverWeight.htm

[octagon]

Very interesting. Thanks.

[Grizz]

That would be an interesting research project. There has to be a reason why this slow twist rate was chosen.

It is interesting that a twist would be chosen that does not even get one full rotation of the bullet in a 20 inch carbine barrel.

I don't think I need more than a 255 gr Keith for anything in South Texas and I have never worried about 300 plus grain bullets in the .44 mag. But here is an interesting article on the subject:

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell44OverWeight.htm

I like that article a lot. Good info, and his 320Gr SBH load was about the same as the load under a PB 325 cast by a friend in Juneau. I kind of developed a load for the 10" revolver by feel and sound. and dropped a tenth for the final. that combo probably took over a hundred deer.

i got a redhawk to replace the sbh because i wanted a da trigger on my last chance load. and i ordered Marshall's 405Gr bullet to see how it performed. my two testing options were water jugs and 30" dia douglas fir firewood rounds. the 405 penetrates thru lengthwise with the same alacrity as my 45/70/525, so not much of a comparison. The 405 penetrated across the grain for a decent distance, but less than half way, and the bullet survived mostly intact. many cast bullets break up on that cross grain test.

My 525Gr load stops in the 12th jug on the water test. I cannot remember the revolver load penetration, around 7 i think. and the load that produced 1030fps in Marshall's redhawk only gets 957 in mine, showing the issue of the too-tight chambers that are swaging the bullets before they get to the rifling. yeah, i gots some work to do to tune revolver.

i do take issue with Mr. Fryxell on a couple of points. the big one relates to this:

So, for the .44 Magnum, it appears that the optimum bullet weight (in terms of penetration) is in the range of 300 to 330 grains. Today we have many fine choices for cast hunting bullets for the .44 Magnum, but it is clear that a lot of good thinking went into the design of the Keith 429421 and the SSK 320. The quality of these two designs is really showcased now, years after their design, when we compare them to all the rest of these challengers. Truly, both bullets are landmarks for the handgun hunter. Good teachers are a blessing indeed.

His theory of the best penetration being related to the smallest meplat is based on his arithmetic, not on side by side live fire tests. AND his theory that the meplat acts as a brake, which he based his math on, is, IMO, incorrect. There is lots of info about what i am about to post, but not in reach right now so i'm just going to wade in.

the theory of the flat meplat that i've been convinced of is this: the flat nose develops a bow wave that streams away from the bullet and actually reduces the resistance passing thru flesh. this bow wave is a known factor in underwater projectiles and has a body of research. somewhere. that bow wave supplies the hydraulic shock that makes the permanent wound. Also, the smaller bullets at higher speeds can give higher energy levels, but lower TKO figures.

this could be tested for in gel media where the bullet path could be photographed.

that, and the weight forward factor helps to stabilize the bullet's trajectory.

here is an article about a Randy Garrett load that equals my 525 45/70 in jug penetration.
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/25044.html

the big question i have about this is how the penetration might vary if, say, the bullet had first gone thru both hind quarter ball joints of a big grizz on its way out. i think TKO might be useful here. our experience is that the 525 makes a clean round hole in bone.

so, if I could meet up with Mr. Fryxell, and he shot his 300 to 330Gr "optimum bullet weight for penetration" alongside my 405Gr choice at 1010 fps, which one would penetrate best in gel, AND water, AND wet newspaper? That would be a valid test. Meanwhile I'll stick with what i have and i guess Mr. Fryxell will stick with his. But the number to beat is 13 one-gallon jugs of water.

it really comes down to what i am not willing to leave on the table re revolver loads when i am walking pase Mrs. Grizz's den with fresh meat on my back . . .

[Scott Tschirhart]

I understand your desire for greater penetration. It makes sense when you have game that necessitates that kind of thing.

That's one of the reasons why I think the Marlin Guide Gun is one of the best hunting rifles ever devised. Light enough to carry, plenty of accuracy and you simply cannot beat the .45-70 for killing things.

[Grizz]

I understand your desire for greater penetration. It makes sense when you have game that necessitates that kind of thing.

That's one of the reasons why I think the Marlin Guide Gun is one of the best hunting rifles ever devised. Light enough to carry, plenty of accuracy and you simply cannot beat the .45-70 for killing things.

I agree. That's my woods rifle. Great skiff gun, the fisherman's horse, eh?

[AJMD429]

Grizz, that’s the same reasoning that led me to the 500 S&W BHA 89; granted, for the price one could buy three Marlin Guide Guns, but I liked the shorter 1886-style action, and even-bigger diameter. Plus the action seemed stronger than the Marlin, and I had some ‘mad-money’ at the time.

For Indiana critters though, the Marlin 1894 is a good choice; the 45-70 or 444 or 500 might extend whitetail-range another 75 yards or so but I haven’t needed that.

In moose, elk, or bear country (or Africa) though, one of those three would definitely be my woods-walking gun.

As for life on a boat....boy that is an interesting topic; never had a boat other than a canoe, but out at sea, boat-jackers or pirates or whatever would make me want serious heavy firepower; probably a 50 BMG if I could swing it.

[Grizz]

yeah, boat life does add some wrinkles. my 45/70 equivalent is 50Beo now. I am satisfied that a 460gr 50 from an AR is the functional equivalent of a 460 from a 45/70. as Randy Garrett said, past a certain velocity, heavy bullet penetration DECREASES.

Another way to look at Beo, or Bea if he is a she this trip, is that it's the slug out of a 12Ga sabot, only heavier.

i have a friend in Alaska who hunted deer for years with a 243 bolt gun. one day he was charged by TWO BROWNIES, he knelt down and lined up on the one in the lead, figuring he might be done for. but the bears broke off and split. and my friend, after weighing the situation, upgraded his hardware to a 270 !! i got a good laugh outa that!

same guy was walking home one evening, crossed the creek, heard a "WOOF" and bolted thru the front door of the little house he was walking past. the sow got to the porch but didn't follow in, so K was ok.

he never got why i carried a 12ga when bears were on the flats. it's because i can't outrun K.