getting my head around small primers

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mickbr
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getting my head around small primers

Post by mickbr »

My main background in the day, bolt actions required me just buying fed #215 primers. Coming back to shooting the last few years and only using pistol carbines now, I am trying to iron out some knowledge gaps. Jim T's thread a while bacl also got me thinking about the necessity of dual purpose items should times get lean. No blogs or searches really seem to lay it all out, so thanks for any help with the following.

1. 357 magnum- I use small pistol ( Federal, though have CCI stocked too), though only load Alliant 2400 for max charges. Is it correct to say for heavier loads, like 17+ grains of H110 etc small pistol magnum primerrs would be better?

2. Read somewhere CCI uses the same primer for their small pistol and small rifle. Does this mean the CCI #500 and #400 are literally the same item?

3. If small pistol primers run out, could small rifle primers be substituted? I understand it may come down to the strength of the firing pin strike? Would a Rossi 92 manage?

4. What about small rifle magnum primers in a 357 mag case?

5. Do you fellas stick with one primer type as much as possible, and if changing to another primer, find load data/accuracy needs to be worked up again?

6. There are some federal small pistol 'match ' primers I could pick up locally. Just wondering what the observable difference is to accuracy. Are match shooting guys always choosing match primers?
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Re: getting my head around small primers

Post by Catshooter »

Here's my take:

1. Any small pistol should work.

2. A dirty low down right lie. ;0

3. & 4. Physically, small rifle & pistol are the same (dimensionally). Magnums, too. Two principle differences. Rifles have a thicker/harder cup to withstand the higher rifle pressures. Some striker-fired pistols won't set them off reliably. And two, rifles & mag have more fire. That can make (and usually does) a difference in powder weight. Work up a new load, especially if you're near the top.

5. Not really. I can't out-shoot a Ransom rest so I don't find it really makes too much difference. Usually. There are people who can out-shoot one though, and they could see it.

6. See #5. And if there are primers you can get, and need, BUY 'EM. Don't mess about. People think things are short now, wait three or four years.

Good luck and good shooting!


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mickbr
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Re: getting my head around small primers

Post by mickbr »

Good then. Looks like I am buying whatever I can get my hands on :D
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Re: getting my head around small primers

Post by AJMD429 »

From another forum:

NOTE 1: According to Speer/CCI Technical Services - Both the CCI 550 Small Pistol Magnum and CCI 400 Small Rifle primers are identical in size. Both primers use the same cup metal and share the same cup thickness. Both primers use the same primer compound formula and same amount of primer compound.Jul 15, 2020


And another interesting thread on primers:

http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=56422.0
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marlinman93
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Re: getting my head around small primers

Post by marlinman93 »

Small pistol and small rifle primers may have the same ingredients, in equal amounts; but my understanding is that rifle primers are taller than pistol primer cups. SO a simple check with micrometer should answer if the 400 and 500 are the same height.
Some fellas I know tell me they use pistol primers in their rifle cases, and the primers seat slightly deeper in the cases. Not so much so that the firing pin wont set them off, but if the gun's firing pin protrusion is minimal it might result in an occasional misfire.
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JimT
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Re: getting my head around small primers

Post by JimT »

Small Pistol and Small Rifle Primers are the same size (thickness .. tallness .. whatever .. the primers take the same depth pocket) My old .357 load in the Ruger single action was with a Small Rifle Primer. I have checked some of my handguns and the double actions won't reliably fire the Small Rifle Primers. Single action sixguns will and the leverguns will as will 1911 types.

Large Pistol and Large Rifle are different size. The primer pocket for Large Rifle Primers is deeper. I have used Large Rifle Primers in .45 Colt cases but you have to mash and distort the primer to do it. My Dad made me a reamer to deepen the pistol cases to take Large Rifle Primers. Pressure testing gave mixed results .. not worth doing unless you have nothing else.
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earlmck
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Re: getting my head around small primers

Post by earlmck »

Some years ago our own COSteve gave us the report that he'd got from a nice lady at CCI, which was that their Small Rifle primers and Small Pistol Magnum primers were identical. Don't know about other brands but I got a good deal on Federal SPM's a few years ago and have been using them interchangeably ever since. I have a nice batch of CCI small rifle primers in reserve but am using up the Federals to retrieve my primer storage space. Those Federals with their stoopid humongous primer boxes take up waaay too much room in the repurposed upright freezer I use for primer storage.

About 25 years ago I was using Winchester small pistol primers for everything and had two "failures to fire" using a ball powder similar to H110 (it is labeled H108 and gets used for all my magnum revolver loads hereabouts as I have a gob of it). These two ftf's were ones in which the primer went off and pushed the bullet out of the revolver cylinder and a bit into the barrel, leaving behind a full charge of un-ignited powder (quite a mess as you can imagine). I had shrugged off the first ftf but the second really got my attention and I finally noticed and heeded the warnings in the loading manual about only using the magnum primers for ball powders and have gone with that thought ever since. Have never had a similar ftf since then although I have had the occasional failure of a primer to go off.
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JimT
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Re: getting my head around small primers

Post by JimT »

Federal went to those oversize primer boxes after a disastrous explosion happened with a truck transporting a bunch of primers.
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AJMD429
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Re: getting my head around small primers

Post by AJMD429 »

marlinman93 wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:18 am Small pistol and small rifle primers may have the same ingredients, in equal amounts; but my understanding is that rifle primers are taller than pistol primer cups. SO a simple check with micrometer should answer if the 400 and 500 are the same height.
Some fellas I know tell me they use pistol primers in their rifle cases, and the primers seat slightly deeper in the cases. Not so much so that the firing pin wont set them off, but if the gun's firing pin protrusion is minimal it might result in an occasional misfire.
That's what I'd heard too; perhaps the cup-thickness difference is what accounts for a slight overall-thickness difference...? I'm guessing this all may depend on the brand, as well.

Federal says their packaging was required due to their primers not being more sensitive, and no more prone to 'sympathetic detonation', but something about behavior if there is a fire was the difference.
On the other hand most reloaders seem to feel that Federals are more 'sensitive' and thus better for 'dangerous-game' situations, versus probably NOT ideal for semiauto firearms without captive firing-pins. I have read that it is a difference in the crystalline structure of the lead styphnate due to varying the pH during manufacturing (intentionally) to produce what Federal claims is a hotter explosion, with less 'impurities'.
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JimT
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Re: getting my head around small primers

Post by JimT »

Small Pistol and Small Rifle Primers are the same size.
They use the same depth primer pocket.
Any difference in manufacturing is too small to make a difference.

CCI 500 Small Pistol Primers
IMG_1879.JPG
CCI 400 Small Rifle Primers
IMG_1880.JPG
There are very tiny differences between manufacturers .. they do not make a difference in seating.

Federal 205 Small Rifle Primers
IMG_1881.JPG
The differences between Large Pistol and Large Rifle are bigger.

Large Pistol
IMG_1883.JPG
Large Rifle
IMG_1882.JPG
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Bullard4075
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Re: getting my head around small primers

Post by Bullard4075 »

Interesting. I'll have to read again......slowly.

Not to hijack but a closely related question. I have a bunch of Large Pistol Mag primers and no mag pistols any longer. Large Pistol Primer in 45 Acp loads??
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Re: getting my head around small primers

Post by mickbr »

I'll have to read it again, too, very good info. Good to know that small pistol primers in a pinch could be pressed into service with 223 type rifles. assuming i read the above correctly.
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Re: getting my head around small primers

Post by earlmck »

Bullard4075 wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:50 am I have a bunch of Large Pistol Mag primers and no mag pistols any longer. Large Pistol Primer in 45 Acp loads??
They'll work fine: might be a bit more fire than you need for the Acp case and you could likely get your normal velocity with a scosh less powder. But you really don't know until you shoot over a chronograph.

I have a couple rifles that give a light firing pin strike and I feed them with those LPM primers. They like 'em.
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JimT
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Re: getting my head around small primers

Post by JimT »

earlmck wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:10 pm I have a couple rifles that give a light firing pin strike and I feed them with those LPM primers. They like 'em.
I only have experience with the 30-30 but with some powders the Large Pistol Magnum primers give more velocity and consistency than the Large Rifle Primers.
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Scott Tschirhart
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Re: getting my head around small primers

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Bullard4075 wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:50 am Interesting. I'll have to read again......slowly.

Not to hijack but a closely related question. I have a bunch of Large Pistol Mag primers and no mag pistols any longer. Large Pistol Primer in 45 Acp loads??
I've used thousands of Tula Large Pistol Magnum primers in .44 Special and .45 ACP loads. I did not change my standard charges and I have had no issues. So the answer is "yes."

I also use CCI small rifle and small pistol primers interchangeably in the .38/.357 with no apparent ill effects.
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Re: getting my head around small primers

Post by Bullard4075 »

Thanks for the input.
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Re: getting my head around small primers

Post by CowboyTutt »

Here's a really helpful page on primers from McPherson's book Metallic Cartridge Handloading. -Tutt

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Re: getting my head around small primers

Post by Ray Newman »

Large pistol primers and Black Powder:

https://www.blackpowdercartridge.com/la ... wder-loads
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Re: getting my head around small primers

Post by 6pt-sika »

Back when I fooled with 22 Hornets quite a bit and W680 was still being made I read somewhere to use a SP primer for better results in the Hornet . I tried it with no detrimental results but nothing overwhelming about them over SR primers .
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mickbr
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Re: getting my head around small primers

Post by mickbr »

Some interesting info on this thread. Of course its second hand information but the poster here relates an in depth conversation with the techs at CCI. Apparently the small pistol magnum and the small rifle are the same height, cup thickness, and weight of primer compound. Meaning CCI #550 and the #400 are essentially the same product.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showth ... p?t=417220
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Re: getting my head around small primers

Post by Tycer »

Primer Flash Test Photos by German Salazar:
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Scott Tschirhart
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Re: getting my head around small primers

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Primers probably do make a difference in target rifles. I think that there is evidence that some powders (H110/296) may benefit from a magnum primer in really cold weather.

But in handgun rounds, I wonder how much difference there really is. I don't push anything I load to the red line and for regular everyday loads, I don't worry too much about primers.

Back during one of the first shortages several years ago, I bought several flats of Tula (Russian) Large Pistol Magnum primers. I've used them interchangably for the past few years with my usual primer (WLP) in a variety of loads and I have never seen an advantage or disadvantage of using them.

I shot small rifle primers in my .357 loads for years because Jim Taylor did! I never worried about them being hard to light and I never had a problem with them in any Smith or Ruger revolver.

I'm happy to see that others have looked at this issue.
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Re: getting my head around small primers

Post by ywaltzucanrknrl »

Using certain small pistol primers in an AR platform should be approached with caution. CCI makes primers, the 41's, specifically for AR's due to the floating firing pin----the issue is not whether any primers will ignite, it's whether they will pierce or even discharge during bolt release---slam fire. Most folks who shoot and load for AR's are particular about primers. The difference is some small rifle primers have thinner and also softer cups. You won't find across the course AR shooters who will recommend R-P 6 1/2's, CCI 400's and even some stay away from the new Winchester small rifle primers.

Most used R-P 7 1/2's, CCI 450's, CCI 41's, Wolf SRM or Federal Small Rifle Mag primers.

White Oak Armory has some good info on cup thickness for small rifle primers, although it is a bit dated.

Over the years I shot across the course, pierced primers and even slam fires happened often enough that it made a person pay attention.

Reason I mentioned this, is because, I'm sure some of the small pistol primers probably have softer cups and also thinner cups, which risk pierced primers and even slam fires. I'm not saying they won't work, just saying that not all small rifle primers are suited for an AR, so it's likely not all small pistol primers are suited for an AR.
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