expansion test 44 special bulllets

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mickbr
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expansion test 44 special bulllets

Post by mickbr »

Not mine but thought it might be interesting for those using 44 special and low speed 44mag in lever guns. Im always interested in what expands at subsonic speeds, obviously a lot of bullets wont being designed for magnum power. As expected good showing by gold dot and a few others. If anyone has others they like feel free to list.

ttps://www.gun-tests.com/viewpoints/editorial/ ... n-loads-3/
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GunnyMack
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Re: expansion test 44 special bulllets

Post by GunnyMack »

I always liked the Remington 240 gr with the scalloped jacket. Those worked at just about any speed!
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JimT
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Re: expansion test 44 special bulllets

Post by JimT »

I have never even thought of expansion with 44's and 45's. They start out as big as folks are trying to get the smaller calibers to expand to. I want accuracy, reliability, and penetration. It's best if it shoots all the way through.
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Re: expansion test 44 special bulllets

Post by mickbr »

Jim larger stuff I would agree, actually agree in general .429 and .452 is a great start as it is. I find expanding JHP pretty good though subsonic on smaller/mid game, falls over a bit faster.
Last edited by mickbr on Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: expansion test 44 special bulllets

Post by mickbr »

GunnyMack wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 6:12 pm I always liked the Remington 240 gr with the scalloped jacket. Those worked at just about any speed!
Didnt think of that, those Rem SJHP work well in 38 special as well. I am guessing they have gone the way of the dodo now though with remingtons demise.
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OldWin
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Re: expansion test 44 special bulllets

Post by OldWin »

JimT wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 6:28 pm I have never even thought of expansion with 44's and 45's. They start out as big as folks are trying to get the smaller calibers to expand to. I want accuracy, reliability, and penetration. It's best if it shoots all the way through.
This has always been my outlook too.
I like the big bores cause bullet choice isn't as big of a deal.
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mickbr
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Re: expansion test 44 special bulllets

Post by mickbr »

its interesting that expanding 38 special and 45acp options get quite a bit of airplay especially with the subsonic hunting guys but 44special and 45 colt not so much.
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wvfarrier
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Re: expansion test 44 special bulllets

Post by wvfarrier »

JimT wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 6:28 pm I have never even thought of expansion with 44's and 45's. They start out as big as folks are trying to get the smaller calibers to expand to. I want accuracy, reliability, and penetration. It's best if it shoots all the way through.

Thats true to a degree however if the projectiles is not expanding you loose a lot of the traumatic injury aspects of it which cause hemorraging, rapid blood loss and rapid unconsciousness. The expansion creates the potential for all those. Im not saying a .451 diameter hole isnt traumatic but it isnt ripping and tearing as most hollowpoints are designed to do. Of course....thsts just my opinion and we all know what opinions are worth. Lastly, 44 special is probably one of the most under rated self defense round still in existance
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JimT
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Re: expansion test 44 special bulllets

Post by JimT »

wvfarrier wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:06 am
JimT wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 6:28 pm I have never even thought of expansion with 44's and 45's. They start out as big as folks are trying to get the smaller calibers to expand to. I want accuracy, reliability, and penetration. It's best if it shoots all the way through.

Thats true to a degree however if the projectiles is not expanding you loose a lot of the traumatic injury aspects of it which cause hemorraging, rapid blood loss and rapid unconsciousness. The expansion creates the potential for all those. Im not saying a .451 diameter hole isnt traumatic but it isnt ripping and tearing as most hollowpoints are designed to do. Of course....thsts just my opinion and we all know what opinions are worth. Lastly, 44 special is probably one of the most under rated self defense round still in existance
You wrote "if the projectiles is not expanding you loose a lot of the traumatic injury aspects of it which cause hemorraging, rapid blood loss and rapid unconsciousness. The expansion creates the potential for all those."

While expansion may create the potential, it may not. Take a good look at what is used for Dangerous Game. "Karamojo" Bell set the standard for dangerous game when he wrote: "A bullet that breaks up is worse than worthless. Penetration is what counts. A bullet that cannot reach the vitals it is aimed at, no matter what the intervening tissue and bone, not only does not kill quickly and reliably but vastly compounds the element of danger to the hunter. A wounded animal is ten times more likely to kill or injure the shooter than an unharmed one. The answer for dangerous game, especially thick-skinned, heavily boned species, is the "solid" bullet precisely placed from a rifle of sufficient caliber to provide the power needed to penetrate, but not so heavy as to be awkward or overpowered."

I have met many more dangerous humans than I have dangerous game. The standard still applies. Accuracy - put the bullet in the correct spot .. reliability - it works under all conditions ... penetration - enough to reach the vital areas regardless of the angle or what it has to go through before it gets there.

Again .. this is just my opinion. No one need buy it.
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Scott Tschirhart
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Re: expansion test 44 special bulllets

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Jim,

I would add to that that you want holes on both sides. Let cold air in and blood out.

We are making a mistake by trying too hard to limit penetration. Nobody knows what angle they will be presented with or what they will need to shoot through. Be that heavy bone or muscle or a car door.

When I used to shoot a lot of game with blackpowder cartridges, I noticed that they killed as well or better than modern sporting rifles. Just punching a big hole through a deer or hog tended to let all of the air out of them quick. No problem following a blood trail. However, after killing a number of deer with a .223, I will never shoot a deer again with this cartridge. Though it is capable of massive damage, the deer do not generally drop, and the blood trail is almost non-existent.
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Re: expansion test 44 special bulllets

Post by mickbr »

Well Bell was head shooting elephant with smallbores, he needed all the penetration he could get. I like expanding bullets myself where approriate. I think a good HP at just under the speed of sound does fine on the right sized game. Just wondering what else is out there bullet wise. I think the old silvertips are discontinued now. Remington SJHP the scalloped design are gone too.
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Re: expansion test 44 special bulllets

Post by stretch »

We are making a mistake by trying too hard to limit penetration.
Oh, that's definitely true. Big holes in and out are more effective than something that
stops inside the animal, even if the projectile is caught by the offside skin. You're still
better off, I think, if it goes all the way through.

One of the purposes of the expanding bullet is to make a bigger hole from a smaller
projectile. Start with a larger projectile, and get a bigger hole to start with. I think
starting with a bigger bullet is more important with handguns; less so with rifles. Rifles
tend to have enough power to make a bullet expand AND push it through the target.
Remington's CoreLokt as an example, designed in the 1930s, is a superb example of an expanding bullet
for rifles.

-Stretch
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Re: expansion test 44 special bulllets

Post by 44shooter »

I think it depends on application. If I'm carrying a bulldog in town in want expansion. If I'm carrying in the woods I want penetration. Both is nice too but they tend to limit each other
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Scott Tschirhart
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Re: expansion test 44 special bulllets

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

I think the best bullet for expansion in the .44 Special was made by Speer and is unfortunately discontinued. It was a half jacket bullet that weighed 225 grains with a very soft core and it was a great all-around bullet for the .44 Special.

Today, I load a Keith SWC over 7.5 gr of Unique and I would not hesitate to use it on anything. I don't think it will expand in flesh, but it may not need to.
Last edited by Scott Tschirhart on Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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JimT
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Re: expansion test 44 special bulllets

Post by JimT »

I like the Keith SWC over 16 gr. 2400.
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Grizz
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Re: expansion test 44 special bulllets

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44shooter wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:35 am I think it depends on application. If I'm carrying a bulldog in town in want expansion. If I'm carrying in the woods I want penetration. Both is nice too but they tend to limit each other
Yeah, i carry hollowpoints in my 45 and 9mm, but a solid in the 380, because that gives me the same penetration in water as the 9mm gold dots.

But when I'm in the woods I use solid hard cast. I wish I could share a video, It's a 525Gr hard cast from the 45/70 shooting thru jugs of water. The idea that there's no hydraulic pressure from flat nose bullets is dead wrong. this was demonstrated in the jug test which was set up on a 2x10 plank across the sides of the truck bed. in the video you can see the shock wave demonstrated by flexing the board down and bouncing clear of the end supports. That's what happens when the hard heavy flat nose goes through game. there is a shock wave in front of the bullet, one of the reasons that bullet form penetrates so far. Also it doesn't blow bone to slivers, it punches a clean hole thru bone. And keeps going thru whatever is after that. We truly can "eat right up to the hole".

there's lots to this, but the idea of a pass through has no traumatic tissue and organ damage is just plain wrong. the idea that a 7mm rem 170Gr bullet stopped in the offside hide has dumped all it's energy into the animal is also wrong. I stopped hunting with the 7 the day that happened..The bullet that doesn't penetrate the far side used up its energy deforming the bullet.

YMMV,
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Re: expansion test 44 special bulllets

Post by Blaine »

:wink: Most things slow down or die when you hit them in the right spot. :idea:
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Grizz
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Re: expansion test 44 special bulllets

Post by Grizz »

Blaine wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:53 pm :wink: Most things slow down or die when you hit them in the right spot. :idea:
twigs don't do as well as arrows
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Re: expansion test 44 special bulllets

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Grizz wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:17 pm
Blaine wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:53 pm :wink: Most things slow down or die when you hit them in the right spot. :idea:
twigs don't do as well as arrows
;) You'll have to brief me on concealed carry with a bow n arrow.
:lol:
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Re: expansion test 44 special bulllets

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Blaine wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:19 pm
Grizz wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:17 pm
Blaine wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:53 pm :wink: Most things slow down or die when you hit them in the right spot. :idea:
twigs don't do as well as arrows
;) You'll have to brief me on concealed carry with a bow n arrow.
:lol:
actually, my bow folds to fit in my day pack. and it's stealth black. and it has a cloaking button. 8)
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Re: expansion test 44 special bulllets

Post by mickbr »

Scott Tschirhart wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:06 pm I think the best bullet for expansion in the .44 Special was made by Speer and is unfortunately discontinued. It was a half jacket bullet that weighed 225 grains with a very soft core and it was a great all-around bullet for the .44 Special.

Today, I load a Keith SWC over 7.5 gr of Unique and I would not hesitate to use it on anything. I don't think it will expand in flesh, but it may not need to.
Scott, I never heard of that one, but then my experience of 44 bulllets doesnt go back very far. I know Speer also does a 210grain DCHP( deep curl or something?). Cant find much info on what levels its likely to expand. Odss are its a magnum bullet.

Its good to be reminded on threads like this how effective standard cast bullets are too.
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