elephant gun v pine box

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Grizz
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elephant gun v pine box

Post by Grizz »

this is funny. the guy is "surprised" and had no idea what the outcome would be. my only regret is that he didn't shoot the same bullet from a guide gun at saami pressure, because he would be even more surprised.

note his comment "because I assumed" . . . , assumptions are not facts, but facts can modify assumptions . . .

this is a good video and lesson, enjoy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gecNNkT9VNM
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marlinman93
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Re: elephant gun v pine box

Post by marlinman93 »

That close to the box, and no shooting glasses? Real genius.
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Re: elephant gun v pine box

Post by Grizz »

Ya'But the outcome was predictable and totally unsurprising to lots of shooters who have been using flat faced solids for a long time, and soft nose bullets too. you know the kind, they expand and deliver all their energy inside the box. Would have been interesting to measure the distance the box moved on each shot. Would also have been interesting if the box had been secured against movement.

I saw a video where someone shot a 50 BMG round into a swimming pool, it didn't go as far as someone might have guessed. I'd like to see these solids shot into a swimming pool. my bet would be that the flat face solids would outdistance the 50 BMG.

Somewhere I posted an image that proposed an explanation of why this would be so, but that was years ago, maybe even before this iteration of Leverguns...

anyone have that image handy?
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Re: elephant gun v pine box

Post by piller »

No surprise to me. Lot of years for the research and lots of animals, wood, and other things shot to find out exactly what he did.
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Re: elephant gun v pine box

Post by AJMD429 »

I remember an article where someone presented the analogy of standing waist deep in water and trying to give it a karate chop really fast with the little finger edge of your hand leading into the water, and how if you went really fast the water pretty much stopped the arm movement after about a foot of penetration. On the other hand a slower impact allowed the arm to go further and even if the hand was flat against the water presenting more resistance than the little finger edge, the slow impact actually penetrated further.

I’m sure there are lots of reasons that analogy doesn’t accurately depict the difference between a pointy boat-tail bullet going 3500 FPS and a wide-meplat hard-cast at 1100 FPS, but it was a good visual.
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Re: elephant gun v pine box

Post by piller »

Good way to visualize it even if it is not totally accurate.
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Re: elephant gun v pine box

Post by .45colt »

Thirty years ago We had a Model 70 .458 Mag in the "Family" for several years. when loaded with heavy 45-70 type (1950fps)+ loads it was like a giant .22 and just fun to shoot . We had several boxes of factory 510 grain loads and I could only handle three shots at a time.
One local store was trashing a bunch of end cap displays that had dozens of pieces of 3/4" heavy dense particle board we got free. We found a long cardboard box and stacked those boards in it. fired from 25 yards the 510's made it thru 17 and into the 18th board. what was really impressive was the "wound channel" the slug made as it traveled in and out. it was about 3" in diameter and We could easily stick our fingers through . I still have one of the fired 510's somewhere.
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Re: elephant gun v pine box

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Great results to keep in mind when hunting 1X12s at a pine sawmill, but beyond that, not so much. I wish I had both those rifles, though. I did have a Ruger No. 1 in .458 Lott briefly. It was just too much gun for this caballero, I confess. I had to catch it upon firing the first shot, as it just sort of leapt out of my hands. :lol: :lol: :shock:
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Re: elephant gun v pine box

Post by piller »

Recoil is sometimes manageable, but it is always going to happen. Those big heavy cartridges put out power both forward and backward.
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Re: elephant gun v pine box

Post by GunnyMack »

piller wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 12:18 pm Recoil is sometimes manageable, but it is always going to happen. Those big heavy cartridges put out power both forward and backward.
Gun weight! Best thing for heavies. Muzzle breaks help too, most importantly is stock dimensions. Lot of drop its gonna beat you every time. I'll shoot MY 338wm all day from a bench but a Rem 700 in '06 beats me up.
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Re: elephant gun v pine box

Post by piller »

Even a heavy gun comes back. And YES some stocks have more felt recoil. Uncle Hudene had a single shot 20 gauge that hurt to shoot, where Dad's 12 gauge SxS with 32 inch barrels came back firmly and slowly. No pain.
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Re: elephant gun v pine box

Post by CowboyTutt »

Scott is a good natured goofball who does hold the record for rapid firing of the S&W 500 mag, he beat out Jerry Miculek in speed shooting the 500 Mag by just a teeny tiny little bit. That being said, he is just one of many You Tube stars who's only claim to fame is blowing stuff up at short range. Not what any of us would call marksmanship, or even related to hunting. I used to subscribe then just got tired of the endless idiocy of it and unsubscribed. Penetration tests in various mediums can be interesting and informative in different mediums if not so scientific. Blowing up cans of gravy and nacho cheese and such at 20 yards is just plain stupid. Pine boards was a huge step up in "scientific" testing for him but 1 inch boards are the typical standard when it comes to breaking pine boards by hand in the martial art world, not 3/4 of an inch. -Tutt
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Re: elephant gun v pine box

Post by mickbr »

A lifetime ago I was into big game rifles. Owned a 375H&H and 416rigby CZ550 and a also short relationship with a 460wby MkV lazermark( too much abuse, sold about a box of ammo later). 357 and 44 mag from a lever is about my limit these days.
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Re: elephant gun v pine box

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

mickbr wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:40 am 357 and 44 mag from a lever is about my limit these days.
I have a lot more fun shooting something that doesn't beat me up.
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Re: elephant gun v pine box

Post by piller »

No elephants, hippos, or rhinos in my area. A .357 levergun will honestly do it all for my area. Shooting other calibers can be fun, but anything more than lever action power level in a .45-70 is just not needed. That much power is rarely needed.
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Re: elephant gun v pine box

Post by marlinman93 »

Never shot bullets into boards to check penetration, but have done so with milk jugs just for fun. I have found that in shooting milk jugs full of water a lot of bullets, and cartridges can result in big surprises. And some of them still puzzle me that they resulted in better penetration through the jugs than ever expected.
My best jug buster shot was my Ballard Pacific in .40-85 Ballard Everlasting, using a 330 grain RCBS CSA bullet. I expected the lighter bullet traveling at a mere 1300 fps to not do that well, but it performed amazing! Had 23 jugs lined up, and it exited the last jug, and went to parts unknown!
On the other hand my 480 gr. Money style bullet in my .45-70 at about the same velocity only penetrated 12 jugs. And some little .32-20 bullets weighing 115 gr. at 1400 fps did equally well.
Unsure any of this testing with various mediums is all that scientific? It is fun, but too many variables to consider, so what it all means is unknown to me. I did take the Ballard .40-85 for elk after seeing how well it worked, but unfortunately didn't get a shot at a bull elk to see what it could do.
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Re: elephant gun v pine box

Post by piller »

Just a SWAG, but I think that Ballard would do well on large animals. I know, milk jug penetration is not always a good indicator. Probably a better to throw in some wood in there to simulate bones. Still, it does give some information.
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Re: elephant gun v pine box

Post by Grizz »

marlinman93 wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:20 pm Never shot bullets into boards to check penetration, but have done so with milk jugs just for fun. I have found that in shooting milk jugs full of water a lot of bullets, and cartridges can result in big surprises. And some of them still puzzle me that they resulted in better penetration through the jugs than ever expected.
My best jug buster shot was my Ballard Pacific in .40-85 Ballard Everlasting, using a 330 grain RCBS CSA bullet. I expected the lighter bullet traveling at a mere 1300 fps to not do that well, but it performed amazing! Had 23 jugs lined up, and it exited the last jug, and went to parts unknown!
On the other hand my 480 gr. Money style bullet in my .45-70 at about the same velocity only penetrated 12 jugs. And some little .32-20 bullets weighing 115 gr. at 1400 fps did equally well.
Unsure any of this testing with various mediums is all that scientific? It is fun, but too many variables to consider, so what it all means is unknown to me. I did take the Ballard .40-85 for elk after seeing how well it worked, but unfortunately didn't get a shot at a bull elk to see what it could do.
I've been shooting water for decades and 23 jugs is the all time highest number of jugs I've seen yet!!

there is a conversion from water to gel that I've seen but don't use.

a LOT of variation exists in bullet structure. and from your 40-85 results I'd say that SD has something to do with it, plus the velocity at contact, plus meplat shape, etc.

flat meplat behaves differently in animals and gel and water and firewood than round nose and hollow point bullets.

I use the water tests to investigate bullet penetration, and to compare bullets from the same firearm, and to compare loads of the same bullet weight, and to cross compare say, my revolver bear load to my guide gun bear load.

I also test in douglas fir firewood rounds in both directions and split bullets out of the cross grain shots to see how they fared going through tougher stuff than the bones in the animals around me. Some bullets crumble, and some bullets look like you could reload them.

I also use a hammer against bullets sitting on concrete so gauge the effects. you might be surprised at which ones crumble, and how the others react.

For me it has taken all of these tests to arrive at the loads I am comfortable with in the environment I developed for...
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Re: elephant gun v pine box

Post by marlinman93 »

The RCBS CSA .40 is a sort of Snover, or Money design, but with a small flat meplat on the nose. At long range I've found this lighter bullet in all my .40 caliber single shoots to be as accurate as my larger Lyman Snover at 420 grs. I also found it penetrates further, even though I thought the Snover being a rounded nose, and having more weight would win the penetration race.
I like both bullets a lot, but the lighter bullet makes lead go further, and has a little less felt recoil, so it's my choice of the two. I must have a half dozen .40 caliber bullet molds, just because I like the old .40 caliber single shot rifles, and always wanting to try yet another bullet shape. I just bought another RCBS CSA in 400 gr. just to compare the two weights, with what looks like identical nose shapes, and see how the two compare to each other?
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Re: elephant gun v pine box

Post by Grizz »

that's awesome. I never got into .40, but I understand how curiosity and rewarding returns work together to spur development.
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Re: elephant gun v pine box

Post by marlinman93 »

I have .40's in single shot rifles that are .40-85 Ballard, .40-65 Win (3 of them), .40-70 Sharps Straight (3 of them), .40-63 Ballard (4 of them!) .40-50 Sharps Straight(2 of them), and .40-45 Remington Straight. The last two are identical cases, with just different weight bullets. And the .40-70 SS and .40-63 Ballard are almost identical too. Close enough to size both from one donor brass.
I never set out to get into .40 caliber rifles, but for some odd reason they seem to find me. It seems like every time I see a nice old single shot and want it, it's another .40 caliber of some sort. Kinda like .22 rifles in old single shots for me. I've lost track of how many I have? The darn things just keep multiplying here!
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Re: elephant gun v pine box

Post by Grizz »

that's very cool. 44mag and 45/70 are my favorites, after going up the bore size ladder trying to get comfortable arould the big man-eating bears. starting with 25/20. I only have 4 45s. and i can only carry one in the woods. but am happy to know that i can perform artillary functions from 2 miles! i think. i take 22rf for granted but like everyone else it's a mainstay and i don't collect them but i have a good pistol and a good levergun, and that does it for me. my ammo and carry choices were shaped by the environment i lived and hunted in. dense forests, some open beaches, in and out of skiffs, the main transportation, long shots rarely necessary, and the ever present stopper shot a consideration. all of which i consider environmental factors that guided my choices. when i moved into a dense riotus uncivilized population the environmental factors guided the process of aquiring self loading firearms in the nato calibers on the theory that that's the most abundant ammo around. kind of a single-minded approach, get the right tool for the job.
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Re: elephant gun v pine box

Post by marlinman93 »

The .45-70 is still a cartridge I enjoy a lot, but I've gradually reduced how many I have down to just two now. An old Ballard #4 Perfection model made in 1875, and a Remington Hepburn from the early 1880's. They're great long range rifles, and both of the rifles I own I restored, and replaced the worn out barrels with Green Mountain 1:18" twist barrels in the same contour and length of the old barrels. The faster 18" twist rate allows them to perform better with heavier bullets, and I've used 500-535 gr. bullets with good results. But my favorite is a 475 or 480 gr. bullet, as it's still a good long range bullet without the heavier recoil of the others.
I recently picked up a nice used Hoch nose pour .459" bullet mold, and hope to cast up some whenever the temps get a little warmer in the shop! Hoping the nose pour equates to really nice bases on the bullets and even better accuracy.
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Re: elephant gun v pine box

Post by Griff »

My sole single shot in a rifle round is a '74 Shiloh Sharps in .40-90SBN. I have the 330 & 350 RCBS CSA molds, a 370 WFN mold and a 410 gr Snover mold I got from Mike V. They all get "minute of buffalo" accuracy, but none get anything close to target accuracy. I don't know if it's the rifle or the loads, but none seem to settle down into "groups" until they compared out past 300 yards.
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Re: elephant gun v pine box

Post by Grizz »

But my favorite is a 475 or 480 gr. bullet
that's really interesting, i've been planning to cut down some of my 535s to get 475, which i have suspected for a long time may be the sweet spot for my rifle. I have some old cast performance 460s which my brownchester really likes, but my marlins don't care for the roundish ogive, and i load tc bullets for them.
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Re: elephant gun v pine box

Post by marlinman93 »

I like bullets that don't have very long noses, and also bullets with more weight in the nose. Especially so for long range shooting, as the pointier the bullet is, even with a rounded tip, the more likely they seem to destabilize before they reach 800-1000 yds.
Depending on the shape, that 460 sounds like it might be a good choice. I just picked up another 475 gr. Lyman 457-121DM mold that has a fairly large, flat meplat that looks like it should put more weight forward. If it ever gets warm enough I've got a bunch of casting to do with new molds so I can see what works best this year for distance shooting.
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