357 vs 223

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mickbr
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357 vs 223

Post by mickbr »

For around the home, the farm, or when the zombies roll in, whats do you prefer folks? I am a fan of the 357 for a few reasons, two main ones being I dont need the range of 223 where I am, I dont envisage getting into 300 yard contacts with squad strength bad guys, and a reason not often stated is finding 357 carbines less disruptive to the ears, mine and the dogs. Not sure if that is the same for everyone, sound being subjective.
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Re: 357 vs 223

Post by OldWin »

The 5.56 is downright nasty on the ears. Inside or outside.
And I'd pass on it at 300yds too.
The .357 out of a carbine is a nasty piece of business at door yard (sorry....Maine terminology) ranges. Very little noise, very little recoil and very quick to handle and operate. All it needs is a light.
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Re: 357 vs 223

Post by Blaine »

I find that the shooter that's the easiest on my ears is a standard pressure 45acp with the 230 FMJ.
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Re: 357 vs 223

Post by TomF »

I carry an open sight 357 rifle and handgun on the ranch. I shoot Lee125RF/6 grs Unique in both. Crossing paths with skunks, coons, etc is common. The report is not offensive. The Marlin holds 13, GP100 holds 6 + a belt full of extras. Cheap to shoot.

Scoped 223 bolt gun gets used from the blind or at night for varmints. It is loud. Works well for turkeys and axis/whitetail head shots, most shots under 75 yards.
ARs are way too loud and awkward for me. Got shed of them.

Both get used but at different times.
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Re: 357 vs 223

Post by AJMD429 »

If the laws weren’t so ridiculous, a short barrel 223 with a suppressor would be perfect, but I agree when it comes to a 357 lever action carbine, that it is also nearly perfect. Mine has a light.

viewtopic.php?p=583183&sid=d68a16e2810c ... 92#p583183
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Scott Tschirhart
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Re: 357 vs 223

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Even suppressed the 5.56 is loud. I have ARs but I do not find them to be as handy or user friendly as a good levergun.

The .357 carbine is the most used rifle in my rack (followed by a Ruger American bolt gun in .300 Blackout). But I probably shoot 50 .38 Specials for every .357 Magnum load I put through it.
Last edited by Scott Tschirhart on Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 357 vs 223

Post by FWiedner »

.

As you mentioned in the OP, between those two cartridges, it's a simple issue of which one is most effective and best employed at what range for a given purpose.

.357 close and in the house (if you have to). Less effective for long range i.e., >100yds IMO.

.223 when you might need to reach out and touch some(one/thing). Outside preferably. Works for close range also, but not as effective at close range as the .357, depends on depth of penetration and density/liquid content of the target.

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Re: 357 vs 223

Post by marlinman93 »

If the stuff hits the fan, it wont be about distance, but rather about magazine capacity. So in my opinion a .357 carbine wont be something I'll reach for. The .223 may be overkill for inside the house, or at close range, but I'd choose overkill with 30 rd. mags vs. the capacity of most .357 rifles or carbines.
And sound or hearing issues wont be a determining factor to me if things get to that point either. Ask anyone whose been in a shooting situation when adrenaline is flowing if they noticed sound levels, and almost everyone will tell you they didn't notice loud sound, or recoil. Might notice it at the range easily, but not under duress.
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Re: 357 vs 223

Post by Grizz »

marlinman93 wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 11:25 am If the stuff hits the fan, it wont be about distance, but rather about magazine capacity. So in my opinion a .357 carbine wont be something I'll reach for. The .223 may be overkill for inside the house, or at close range, but I'd choose overkill with 30 rd. mags vs. the capacity of most .357 rifles or carbines.
And sound or hearing issues wont be a determining factor to me if things get to that point either. Ask anyone whose been in a shooting situation when adrenaline is flowing if they noticed sound levels, and almost everyone will tell you they didn't notice loud sound, or recoil. Might notice it at the range easily, but not under duress.
I agree with all of this. I never considered a semi auto to carry around when I lived in Alaska. When I moved to the marxist insanity of WA I realized I needed to match the response to the threat. the threats reach combat levels on a daily basis in seattlestan.

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Re: 357 vs 223

Post by Blaine »

Spray and Pray? :roll:

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Re: 357 vs 223

Post by gamekeeper »

I've heard it said that:
If you're a good shot you should be able to pick up as many full auto battle rifles as you like, so what you start out with isn't that important.
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Re: 357 vs 223

Post by mickbr »

Ive heard shots under duress. One burst from a twin mounted f89 and by the time it stopped I had dropped a hearing threshold and added 6 notes permanenty to my tinnitus. :D Almost as bad was the heavy course of prednisalone I got put on, I felt whacky for weeks. I will agree if war or civil strife is the business a battle rifle is the best idea. That said as gamekeeper says its how well you use it. Two things that became apparent to me were.
1. you come up against a guy who knows what he is doing even with an old bolt action, its a nightmare.
2 the second time you come up against a guy as good as you, the odds require its your turn to die. Thats how real fights work.
My philosophy for running a one man band is what guerillas or our enemies teach us, try not to be there when the other side starts shooting. Avoid, evade, escape and try to break contact as soon as possible or your S H T F career may not last through your first hign capacity magazine.
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Re: 357 vs 223

Post by 4t5 »

Had a ranch rifle .223 for a short time, first time to the range after shooting next to a guy with a .30 carbine, I wanted to trade, I hated the report of the .223. That fella didn't like it either.
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Re: 357 vs 223

Post by AJMD429 »

gamekeeper wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:39 pmMy motto is buy what you really enjoy using and just practice with it.
That's a pretty good philosophy. You'll have fun, and become proficient, and a proficient person with ANY gun is likely better off than a novice with the fanciest/best gun.

Now if a person has nine guns they enjoy and can't decide what their tenth gun should be, it may be time for them to buy something emphasizing pure firepower and practicality, even if they don't "enjoy" it.
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Re: 357 vs 223

Post by stretch »

The .357 out of a carbine is a nasty piece of business at door yard (sorry....Maine terminology) ranges.
Very little noise, very little recoil and very quick to handle and operate. All it needs is a light
i like the 357. One of these days I've got to get a lever action chambered in it. And one in 41 Magnum.
I have one in 35 Remington, which is kinda like a 357 on steroids, eh?

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Re: 357 vs 223

Post by piller »

I never could see a point in being the second one to shoot, or staying in place after shooting. Let your enemy take the wounds.
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Re: 357 vs 223

Post by AJMD429 »

stretch wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:13 pm
I have one in 35 Remington, which is kinda like a 357 on steroids, eh?
I always thought a 357 Max would be cool, but you’re right; if you want more power in that caliber than a light handy 16” 357 Mag short-action carbine will provide (which is quite a bit), why not step up to a long-action rifle in 35 Remington; quite the fine cartridge as well...!
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Re: 357 vs 223

Post by OldWin »

mickbr wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:55 pm Ive heard shots under duress. One burst from a twin mounted f89 and by the time it stopped I had dropped a hearing threshold and added 6 notes permanenty to my tinnitus. :D Almost as bad was the heavy course of prednisalone I got put on, I felt whacky for weeks. I will agree if war or civil strife is the business a battle rifle is the best idea. That said as gamekeeper says its how well you use it. Two things that became apparent to me were.
1. you come up against a guy who knows what he is doing even with an old bolt action, its a nightmare.
2 the second time you come up against a guy as good as you, the odds require its your turn to die. Thats how real fights work.
My philosophy for running a one man band is what guerillas or our enemies teach us, try not to be there when the other side starts shooting. Avoid, evade, escape and try to break contact as soon as possible or your S H T F career may not last through your first hign capacity magazine.

This is reality.
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Re: 357 vs 223

Post by Griff »

I'm a fan of big, heavy, slow bullets. Plus, if they're of sufficient length I don't fumble getting them into a magazine as easy. Without that little loader thingie, filling magazines for the .223 is just an ordeal to be endured. I like the 45 Colt. I have 5 rifles chambered in the 45 Colt. One holds 14 rounds, the other 13. One short rifle holds 12, the other 10. one is a single shot. The little Marlin was converted to load the Cowboy45Special as will a Uberti Henry Carbine that I've ordered. But, my favorite rifles are still .30-30 Winchester 94s. Between 2 trappers, 3 or 4 20" carbines, a 20" octagon rifle, a 24" rifle, and 2 26" octagon rifles, plus a 26" round barreled, half magazine mdl 64, oh, nevermind, you get the idea, I am more partial to the 1911 or Colt SAA for handgun use. But am generally found with the 1911 on me. Surprisingly, while I nearly always shot max scores on my qualifying days with a .38+P in the mdl 65 I carried for years as a duty gun, but with the much more favored Combat Commander, once I went plain clothes, I could only come within 4 points, occasionally 3. Yet, yes, that one extra round in those old standard capacity magazines and the thumb safety, made me feel safer. Now, with the more reliable 8 round mags, I feel even better!

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Re: 357 vs 223

Post by wvfarrier »

I am a huge fan of the 357 cartridge in both handguns and rifles for most jobs however i have been in enough situations to realize that i can appreciate the advantages of a semi auto rifle with 30 rds available. In a hostile situation, reloading sucks!!! That being said 223 isnt my go to rifle cartridge. I prefer 300 AAC (blackout) as i get a heavier projectile on target. Also, most of my home defense loads are very close to hearing safe without a suppressor. The are FAR below the ear destroying sounds of a 223. Now, that I have said all that, I typically grab my Winchester 92 in 357 for nearly everything
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Re: 357 vs 223

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My house gun is a keltec sub2000 9mm with 25 round magazines. something that is the least likely to overpenetrate cadavers, with none of the political bs associated with my AR pistols, some of which can overpenetrate bears. It is lighter than any other long arm, more concealable when folded, easier for my wife to shoot well, it's as safe as a firearm can be, etc. when the front sight is in the peep sight, we don't miss.

I cannot think of a more better tool for the job. If we NEED the ARs, then we have bigger problems than a simple 6-man home invasion, one of the threats we prepare for.
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Re: 357 vs 223

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Never said the sound level of your gun wouldn't damage your hearing. What I said was you wont notice it at the time it's happening under duress. Just like you wont notice the recoil then either. The moments afterwards you'll calm down and notice both.
But I doubt under a stressful situation most people will tell themselves to wait and go get their ear plugs, regardless of what gun and cartridge they're shooting. And the fact you've got 30 rds. in the magazine vs. 7-10 rds. wont make me decide to waste ammo, or take the spray approach. I'm going to try my best to make every shot count, and not end up with an empty 30 rd. mag, and bad guys laughing at me.
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Re: 357 vs 223

Post by piller »

If I ever have to defend my life,I plan on putting the holes in the bad guy or guys. You can forget about me trying to fight fair and getting shot.
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Re: 357 vs 223

Post by AJMD429 »

but with the much more favored Combat Commander, once I went plain clothes, I could only come within 4 points, occasionally 3. Yet, yes, that one extra round in those old standard capacity magazines and the thumb safety, made me feel safer. Now, with the more reliable 8 round mags, I feel even better!
Try a Para Ordnance P-12 - the size of an 'Officer' model Colt, with a MUCH better grip, and holds 12 rounds of 45 ACP... (or go full-size, and 14 rounds).
But, in reality its not really the firearm that determines the outcome of any hostile encounter... it is the resolve of at least of the one parties involved. It is my fervent prayer that none of the members here need be tested... but if so, I hope you have that necessary resolve.
But, in reality its not really the firearm that determines the outcome of any hostile encounter... it is the resolve of at least of the one parties involved. It is my fervent prayer that none of the members here need be tested... but if so, I hope you have that necessary resolve.
Yep - the BEST strategy is "not to show up" for a gunfight...

If that fails, and you can't avoid/escape/run, the next best thing seems to be to END the gunfight, definitively. That isn't dependent on gun, cartridge, or anything else, so much as just what we know from hunting.....'shot placement'. A dude being victimized who shoots the bad-guy in the nose with a 22LR is going to do better than the dude with a super-custom-combat-master-45ACP-whatever, who doesn't shoot the right place, at the right time, under the right circumstances...
I prefer 300 AAC (blackout) as i get a heavier projectile on target. Also, most of my home defense loads are very close to hearing safe without a suppressor. The are FAR below the ear destroying sounds of a 223. Now, that I have said all that, I typically grab my Winchester 92 in 357 for nearly everything
Same here - it is either a Marlin or Rossi, but 357 Mag is kinda the 'do it all' cartridge around the farmstead.
My house gun is a keltec sub2000 9mm with 25 round magazines. something that is the least likely to overpenetrate cadavers, with none of the political bs associated with my AR pistols, some of which can overpenetrate bears. It is lighter than any other long arm, more concealable when folded, easier for my wife to shoot well, it's as safe as a firearm can be, etc. when the front sight is in the peep sight, we don't miss.

I cannot think of a more better tool for the job. If we NEED the ARs, then we have bigger problems than a simple 6-man home invasion, one of the threats we prepare for.
Right now, we are transitioning from the 357 Mag and/or 45 Colt levergun (both loaded with subsonic 'cowboy' loads) to either the 300 Blackout suppressed AR 'pistol', OR the 9m Ruger Charger PC 'pistol'. I think the latter is going to be the choice, simply because the 'charging handle' of the AR is STUPID AND RIDICULOUS, and a side-charging weapon makes FAR more sense. I do have a 'side-charging' AR, but not in 300 Blackout.... :|
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Re: 357 vs 223

Post by Grizz »

I have a 300. I gave half my ammo away and am replacing with a side charging 762 upper. (AR47) I think of it as my car gun because I would not use it where I live, not inside the house anyway. I can't risk my propensity to miss details, and I don't want to invite myself to stick a 300 round in the middle of a 556 magazine. I have a couple of 300 uppers to swap, don't want them in inventory. I think 9mm is plenty good indoors. I just have to make the shot.

If you can find a sub2000 in either caliber I think you might prefer it to the charger, maybe. think of it as a long barrel pistol with a really good pistol brace. :lol: the new ones with the built in rails are good. the older style is a little slimmer and less tactical signaling. they are scarce as anything and have been since they first came out. I would recomend it to anyone for a first firearm. Same manual of arms, almost, as a pistol, less likely to shoot themselves in the butt. more likely to be on the target, the zone between adam's apple and the bridge of the nose, or the ear hole.
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Re: 357 vs 223

Post by mickbr »

marlinman93 wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:13 am Never said the sound level of your gun wouldn't damage your hearing. What I said was you wont notice it at the time it's happening under duress. Just like you wont notice the recoil then either. The moments afterwards you'll calm down and notice both.
Not sure if you picked up from my first post, some of us have experienced 'shots under duress', that f89 episode hurt plenty. Also my original point was hearing damage anyway. I am not arguing against a 223 , just stating my preferences.
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Re: 357 vs 223

Post by piller »

I keep a pair of electronic muffs with my pistol beside my bed. There is a 5,000 lumen flashlight there, too. I have lost hearing. I am trying to not lose any more.
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Re: 357 vs 223

Post by marlinman93 »

Well I understand the care people take to save their hearing, and that's great. But if I grabbed my ear muffs every time I heard a noise outside that made me grab my gun to investigate, I'd be wearing ear muffs many times for no reason. So far I've never fired a shot on these ventures to check things out, so no damage to my ears.
If I was in one of those stuff hits the fan situations, and I had time to grab muffs or ear plugs, I think I would. But for every little thing I want to check out, I'm fine not walking outside with muffs on and having my neighbors wonder what the heck I'm up to? I keep my gun ownership a pretty well kept secret from all my neighbors, so not going to put muffs on when I'm outside and announce I've got a gun that might be going off.
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Re: 357 vs 223

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Grizz wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:35 am My house gun is a keltec sub2000 9mm with 25 round magazines. something that is the least likely to overpenetrate cadavers, with none of the political bs associated with my AR pistols, some of which can overpenetrate bears. It is lighter than any other long arm, more concealable when folded, easier for my wife to shoot well, it's as safe as a firearm can be, etc. when the front sight is in the peep sight, we don't miss.

I cannot think of a more better tool for the job. If we NEED the ARs, then we have bigger problems than a simple 6-man home invasion, one of the threats we prepare for.
My twin has one of those too, for the same reasons -- plus the mags are the same as his SD handgun.

He says the "best part" for him (while existing in Das Kommon-No-Wealth of MassaSHITsetts) is he carries it in/out of the house in a full-length tennis racket case. Nobody knows he has it -- which is part of the plan.

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Re: 357 vs 223

Post by mickbr »

marlinman93 wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:59 am Well I understand the care people take to save their hearing, and that's great. But if I grabbed my ear muffs every time I heard a noise outside that made me grab my gun to investigate, I'd be wearing ear muffs many times for no reason. So far I've never fired a shot on these ventures to check things out, so no damage to my ears.
very true. Which is why some of us choose less abusive calibres, especially where it may be used in a hurry. I've shot several bumps in the night, just being pests getting amongst the animals.
Last edited by mickbr on Sat Jan 30, 2021 7:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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