500 grain flat point .459 or .460

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fordwannabe
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500 grain flat point .459 or .460

Post by fordwannabe »

Ok so I did not put this in classifieds as I am asking for help as much as begging to buy a couple bullets. I am about to get my Marlin 1895 back from the gunsmith. It now has a 17 inch barrel, WWG trigger, scope mount, rear sight, fiber optic front sight, action job and is a takedown....with a Silencerco Hybrid suppressor hanging off the front of it. Yes, I am a happy man. Anyway, I am looking to shoot cast subsonic ammo and I want to see if It will stabilize 500 grain bullets. Lee makes a 500 grain but it's only .457(why make a 457?) , so I am asking if anyone knows of a 500 grain flat point without a gas check( THINGS CAN GET VERY EXCITING WHEN A GC GETS STUCK IN A SUPPRRSSOR AND THE NEXT BULLETS IS ON THE WAY)mold that throws. 459 or 460 AND does anybody have a few bullets from such a mold that I could purchase to try before buying a mold? I have not seen any of the cast bullets sellers have what I need but if you see one I missed that would be a great way to go also. Thanks for listening.Tom
Last edited by fordwannabe on Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 500 grain flat point .459 or .460

Post by Blaine »

*Bump*

(I'd sure like to see pics of that beast 8) )
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Re: 500 grain flat point .459 or .460

Post by fordwannabe »

Blaine I have a couple pics of it during the build. If you send me an email addy or cell number I will send you a couple. I have never been able to post pictures on here correctly and I even asked my kid AND HE CANT GET IT TO WORK. Mrs fordwannabe tried also so it's not just me. Dunno why. Other than computers hate me.
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Re: 500 grain flat point .459 or .460

Post by Woodtroll »

Is your barrel a replacement or a shortened factory barrel? I think most of the recent Marlin factory 1895s are 1:20 twist, some may even be 1:22 but I am not sure. I am afraid it is going to be tough to stabilize a 500-grain bullet at subsonic muzzle velocity with a twist less than 1:18 or even 1:16. I could be wrong, though, and it never hurts to try.

Another item to consider is overall loaded cartridge length. Unless your gunsmith did some modifications, most 500's won't cycle through the 1895 action. Some will cycle through, but then can't be ejected unless fired (yes, I learned that one the hard way :wink: ). A 500 would have to sit DEEP in the case to work, but since you're looking for low velocities and a .45-70 case has lots of room, you should be okay there as long as you can find a bullet with a crimp ring deep enough.

I'm certainly not trying to discourage you from trying - it sounds like a neat concept and sure would be worth a try. Just trying to point out some issues I've had with heavy bullets and the Marlins.

Good luck!
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fordwannabe
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Re: 500 grain flat point .459 or .460

Post by fordwannabe »

Thanks Reagan. I am unsure if it will stabilize or not with a 1 :20. Hence wanting a couple to try. Some places say it will others say not. I do have the 1972 with the Douglas barrel from the factory. I am looking at 11-12 grains of trail boss as the propellant. Just hard to find a 500 grain flat nose without a gc or bb. If I can find that I can stabilize that bullet, I am thinking I will have a four cavity mold made, possibly LBT but they ain't cheap.
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Re: 500 grain flat point .459 or .460

Post by Grizz »

my 1:20 guide gun stabilizes 525gr pile drivers. you could pop the gas checks off.

I shoot only .460 hard cast in it. it's a straight shooter. my 525 load runs around 1400+fps, so can't certify subsonic performance.

I get my bullets from Marshall Stanton at beartoothbullets.com. I don't know if he has any plain base.

If I were going to buy a custom mold I'd make one that drops 475 gr plain base bullet at .460 with the exact truncated cone design that Marshall uses.

It feeds better than the rounded ogive types, and it penetrates like it wants to change counties. I suspect that 475gr is an actual sweet spot for my guide gun, but haven't gotten around to testing it.

I think Marshall's alloy could be driven to around 1700 fps with a plain base without leading problems.

hope that there is something useful from my ramblings.
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Re: 500 grain flat point .459 or .460

Post by fordwannabe »

Thanks Grizz. Will give those a look. I saw an LBT, no Sixgun not LGBT, bullet that looks promising AND AT ONLY $185 WHAT A BARGAIN. Why couldn't I have enjoyed running or knitting? :roll:
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Re: 500 grain flat point .459 or .460

Post by fordwannabe »

Lee actually makes a mold thats close to what I want, except its 457, why in the world would you make a cast bullet mold in 457? I have tried beagling molds so so results as in it makes them fatter front to back but still same 457 side to side, and I have lapped a couple, which in my opinion is the better choice, but why can't I find a .460 diameter 500 grain mold with a flat point and a flat base. AAAARRRGGGHH&
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Re: 500 grain flat point .459 or .460

Post by Blaine »

fordwannabe wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:24 pm Blaine I have a couple pics of it during the build. If you send me an email addy or cell number I will send you a couple. I have never been able to post pictures on here correctly and I even asked my kid AND HE CANT GET IT TO WORK. Mrs fordwannabe tried also so it's not just me. Dunno why. Other than computers hate me.
Incoming. :mrgreen:
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Re: 500 grain flat point .459 or .460

Post by Sixgun »

At low velocities such as you stated, a gas check bullet without the check will work fine. Your not going after sub-moa groups. Over the years it has been a hit or miss with me...at the higher velocities..1200-1800....but at subsonic speeds I've never noticed a difference. If you take notice, most of today's cast handgun bullets that you buy are bevel based...what's the difference?.....for my 38-40's the only bullet I use is the Lyman 170 TCBB designed for the 40 S&W and I don't shoot a box or two a year....most likely 20,000 over the past years in various 38-40's.

Will it stabilize? Check out the twist of original trapdoors...I can't recall offhand.....but I've shot hundreds, if not thousands of cat sneeze loads...400-600 fps with 400-420 gr. bullets out to 200 meters with no issues at all...hitting the 10" gong easily using trapdoors and 1886 Winchesters........so that means a 500 grain bullet going TWICE as fast in the same twist should and will work. The Army had excellent results with the 500 grain bullets out to a mile and I'm sure those bullets were probably traveling 500-600 fps when hitting the target.

I've shot several hundred 575 grain bullets out of an original Sharps at 800-1100 with no issues....sorry, sold the mould.

Tom, Can't help ya with the 500 grain bullets except for some original military issue loads from the 1880's.

Lee has a 45 caliber listed at .457?.....don't mean nothing......they will cast out most likely at 459 and with a hard alloy at .460.

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fordwannabe
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Re: 500 grain flat point .459 or .460

Post by fordwannabe »

Jack I have a 405,from Lee listed as 457 and a 459 sizing die did not touch the sides darn it. I lapped it to increase to the point it makes contact about 90 percent now. Had not thought about shooting a gc bullet without the check. Wont know until I try it now will I?
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Re: 500 grain flat point .459 or .460

Post by Catshooter »

Ford,

RCBS makes three mould for the 45-70 that are specifically designed for the short over all length needed. If you look at them, you'll see that from the crimp groove forward they are all the same. From the crimp groove back though, that's where the weight changes. It's here:https://www.midwayusa.com/product/30546 ... -gas-check

As Sixgun suggests, try it without the gas check.


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Re: 500 grain flat point .459 or .460

Post by Blaine »

Here's the Pix that Tom wanted to post:
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Re: 500 grain flat point .459 or .460

Post by fordwannabe »

Second pic is Marlin the day I got him for Mrs. fordwannabe. Note the size of that paw. First pic is last week he is every bit as tall as my three year old lab(Winchester). That is not me holding the rifle, yhat is Ron my machinist. HE DID NOT WANT HIS PICTURE TAKEN. THANKS Blaine
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Re: 500 grain flat point .459 or .460

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HE DID NOT WANT HIS PICTURE TAKEN. THANKS Blaine
UhOh...I thought you wanted me to post them....should I delete them? :o :shock:
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Re: 500 grain flat point .459 or .460

Post by fordwannabe »

Ooh absolutely not. I said that because of the grumpy look on his face.hehe
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Re: 500 grain flat point .459 or .460

Post by fordwannabe »

Update:
I GOT TO SHOOT IT! I GOT TO SHOOT IT NANNY NANNY BOO BOO.
Before this last couple days, I had the joy of shooting the suppressed 45/70 for the first time. Hee Heee Hee. I used a dual diameter 500 grain bullet that fed really slick but had enough body to fill the bore. Sized.460 and loaded with 11.3 grains of trail boss. My C OAL was only 2.55 so I can drop the trail boss back a tad. It really whacked the plywood backer and splintered the 2x4 leg of the target. I am not done with this project by a long stretch but shooting it was a big milestone for me. I am going to make up accuracy loads for both subsonic and bearsonic levels. My gunsmith who has the can has a hybrid and a range I can do load development while waiting for the feds to tell me yes you can own this piece of pipe. Aaaarrrggghh.
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Re: 500 grain flat point .459 or .460

Post by Blaine »

fordwannabe wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:46 pm Update:
I GOT TO SHOOT IT! I GOT TO SHOOT IT NANNY NANNY BOO BOO.
Before this last couple days, I had the joy of shooting the suppressed 45/70 for the first time. Hee Heee Hee. I used a dual diameter 500 grain bullet that fed really slick but had enough body to fill the bore. Sized.460 and loaded with 11.3 grains of trail boss. My C OAL was only 2.55 so I can drop the trail boss back a tad. It really whacked the plywood backer and splintered the 2x4 leg of the target. I am not done with this project by a long stretch but shooting it was a big milestone for me. I am going to make up accuracy loads for both subsonic and bearsonic levels. My gunsmith who has the can has a hybrid and a range I can do load development while waiting for the feds to tell me yes you can own this piece of pipe. Aaaarrrggghh.
Here ya go, Tom....
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Re: 500 grain flat point .459 or .460

Post by Woodtroll »

Great news, glad you got it to work out!
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