OLD(!) Handloaders - ID this bullet box??

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JohndeFresno
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OLD(!) Handloaders - ID this bullet box??

Post by JohndeFresno »

Here is another challenge for long-time handloaders.

Yes, you probably will have to have seen many summers (or winters), possibly more than the 71 that I've seen; or else must have been in the reloading game for at least a couple of decades.

I am purchasing some "Trophy" .270 bullets, 130gr and 110gr, from GunnyMack, and I'm quite happy with the deal.

But for me to start working up a load, I like to start with a reference and work safely from there. It saves a lot of "re-invent the wheel" time, that way.

I have been told that Speer has, in the past, offered a "Trophy" line. I know that Nosler has had "Trophy" type bullets. And I have discovered that Federal quit using Barnes bullets for a certain line because they took over the "Trophy bullet" works, wherever that is/was. But I cannot find anything in my books and manuals or online.

I have ordered an old Nosler reloading manual (Nr 2) but I doubt that it will solve this riddle.

These bullets merely say "Trophy" on the box - no other company name. They come in 130 and 110 grain weights. I can find absolutely nothing in my stuff or through other research, so far, that shows any company that carried a 110 grain .270 bullet entitled "Trophy."

So - is this a "Trophy" brand that is no longer in business, e.g. the "Trophy Bullet Company of Dogpatch" or whatever?

Here is a reprint of a photo that GunnyMack had in the Classified sub-forum.

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Ray
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Re: OLD(!) Handloaders - ID this bullet box??

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jeepnik
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Re: OLD(!) Handloaders - ID this bullet box??

Post by jeepnik »

The red box looks to have more information. Can you get a photo of all sides of that one?
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JohndeFresno
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Re: OLD(!) Handloaders - ID this bullet box??

Post by JohndeFresno »

Ray, that is what GunnyMack thinks, but I can't verify it. Maybe I should contact them.

Jeepnik, the red box is Hornady!
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Re: OLD(!) Handloaders - ID this bullet box??

Post by harry »

JohndeFresno wrote:Ray, that is what GunnyMack thinks, but I can't verify it. Maybe I should contact them.

Jeepnik, the red box is Hornady!
They could be Old sierra harris bullet boxes.
"Harris Machine Co. began manufacturing Sierra Bullets in 1947 in Riviera, Ca. In 1952 they became an independent co, Sierra Bullets Inc., and sold by Harris. They were in Whittier Ca.from 1952 or 53 until 1963 when they moved to Santa Fe Springs, Ca."
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Re: OLD(!) Handloaders - ID this bullet box??

Post by Griff »

Sierra's. They were still using that style box in the '80s!
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Re: OLD(!) Handloaders - ID this bullet box??

Post by Sixgun »

John,
I have about every manual published since WW2 but I'm on the throne right now dropping off a Hillary at the pool so I have to go with what is in my head.

If in doubt, compare the bearing surface with a known bullet....the longer the bearing surface, the more pressure and if you can get one that is close to these "trophy" bullets and the same weight, just start with a load that's about 3 grains under max for the bullet you know about...then work up from there. Also, make sure it's a lead core bullet. These things only matter when getting up in the middle to high pressure range.-----6
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Ray
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Re: OLD(!) Handloaders - ID this bullet box??

Post by Ray »

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JohndeFresno
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Re: OLD(!) Handloaders - ID this bullet box??

Post by JohndeFresno »

Thank you very much, Harry and Griff.
I had no idea the Sierra had such a presence in California in its early days. That certainly explains the name, since there isn't any range of that name in Missouri!

Sixgun - :lol: - no comment...
And thank you for the technical advice!

Ray, I remember those days when gun stores HAD enough stuff to put into the catch-all boxes.

Thank you, all I'm going to see if Sierra can give me so load data for these old babies.
JohndeFresno
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Re: OLD(!) Handloaders - ID this bullet box??

Post by JohndeFresno »

Well, this has turned out to be a convoluted but interesting project. Just what handloaders love!

1) This is not the early Sierra bullet.

2) The "Trophy" brand was a specialty bullet at the time - pure copper jacket bonded to lead, created by Jack Carter of Houston - a big game hunter, tinkerer and businessman. He was hugely disappointed with the results of firing seven 300 gr .375 H&H Magnum bullets at a cape buffalo, "seemingly with little effect" per the article cited below, and decided to make a better bullet.

3) My research indicates that Federal had been using Barnes bullets, replaced them with Trophy bullets which they bought out. Now the Federal 110's (at least) are again Barnes. I guess because as of 2005 or earlier, Mr. Carter passed on to better rewards.

4) Speer, owned by Federal, at least at one time offered these bullets as their own. Speer manual 13 and 14 don't even offer a 110 .270 Win loading, although Federal offers a 110gr. loaded .270 Win bullet and Sierra still sells a 110 grainer; different than these 110's and 130's that I am purchasing.

Here is some of my research proof:

Rich Machholz, Ballistic Technician at Sierra Bullets, gave me a courteous and quick reply. He stated that he could not find evidence of the company ever manufacturing a bullet packaged as a "Trophy" designation. He said their boxes have been green, and the slip top boxes from the 40's and 50's were green.

He advised that they still make the .277" diameter 110 and 130 grain 270 bullets. I sent him a photo of these boxes, and if he can find any more info he will get back to me.

I finally found a record, in an old online article, of the company that manufactured these:

Trophy Bonded Bullets, Inc., 900 South Loop West, Suite 190
P.O. Box 262348, Houston, TX 77207
FAX: 713-741-6393 / Phone: 713-645-4499 (Disc) /
Toll Free: 800-480-3006 - now an online offer for a "Free Caribbean Cruise" blah blah

"Texan Jack Carter" was the owner of Trophy bullets, and here is one article about his history:
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/ammun ... ts_021111/

Then, there is:
David E. Petzal's Complete Guide to Choosing the Best New Bullets for Your Rifle
By David E. Petzal July 31, 2005
"Trophy Bonded

"BEAR CLAW

"Jack Carter, the Houston big-game hunter and bullet tinkerer, is hunting in a better world now, but his Trophy Bonded bullets are alive and well and being manufactured by Federal and sold to handloaders through Speer Bullets. Federal has swapped Carter's pure-copper jackets for gilding metal, which is stronger, and made the bullet points more streamlined. The new Bear Claws are more accurate than the originals.

"I have a .270 that will shoot nothing but Bear Claw bullets accurately and have been using it regularly for nearly 20 years. When a Bear Claw hits, the bullet opens up like a propeller, and because it retains 90 percent or better of its weight, it goes zipping right through whatever you've shot.

"THE UPSHOT STRONG POINTS: Does a lot of damage, giving very quick kills. Also penetrates very well despite huge expansion. WEAK POINTS: On smaller species they do a little too much damage to suit me. Also, in some rifles, they simply will not shoot accurately, period. USE IT ON: Big, tough critters: elk, moose, bears, African game.
FACTORY LOADED BY: Federal"

Chuck Hawks' site also mentions Carter's bullets in an article - "Big Game Loads" or similar title.

So... the Speer and Federal lines are the same phone number. I talked to a gent at Federal; he stated that the Speer representative is tied up but he would call me back. I told them that I am looking for load info on the older bullets for a safe start at working up my loads.

If no further information is available, then it's time to measure them to match them with any other bullets in my QuickLoad tables, or alter the stats from a similar bullet (Sierra) to produce a rough prediction of capacity and pressure and start with a modest charge.

This has turned out to be quite a hunt.
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Re: OLD(!) Handloaders - ID this bullet box??

Post by JohndeFresno »

Griff,
Here is the green box that you remember. I didn't purchase these; but they are also offered for sale by GunnyMack at this time.

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Re: OLD(!) Handloaders - ID this bullet box??

Post by JohndeFresno »

I got a call back from a Speer representative. He states that his reference material only goes back to (I think it was) Speer Nr 12, and there is no load data for these old bullets. He verified that these were copper with a lead core, but are not what they use now.

Ordered Speer #7 and #9 from e-Bay. If neither of these has what I want, it is on to Plan B - measure, start with a mild QuickLoad load prediction!
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Re: OLD(!) Handloaders - ID this bullet box??

Post by GunnyMack »

Ah-ha! Great leg work JohnDe! I hope they bring you great accuracy & lots of meat( outside the condor zone ) !

I can remember seeing this style box years ago. Where, I couldn't tell you. Never knew the history on them. Since I don't have a 270 I didn't bother doing any research.
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JohndeFresno
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Re: OLD(!) Handloaders - ID this bullet box??

Post by JohndeFresno »

Thanks, Gunny Mack.

Bullets arrived! Oddly enough, I measured them and compared the measurement with all .270 Win (.277) bullets in the QuickLoad tables and also from another online source of various known bullet lengths, which included Sierra's and Speer's.

The closest match I found was with Hornady bullets - where did that come from?

Trophy 110 Spitzer - .955" / Hornady 110 HP #2720 - 1.0"
(Sierra Pro-Hunter 110 was .80")

Trophy 130 Spitzer - 1.150" / Hornady 130 Spire Point #2730 - 1.150"

Both QuickLoad and Hornady Ed. 9 show me that 45.0 gr of IMR 4064 is a very safe, middle of the road load to start with. That was my barnyard guess, based upon comparing a number of loads from reputable authors and load manuals.

Family concerns have grabbed my time at the moment, but I am eager to start working up some great loads for this custom bullet, once a proprietary premium Federal Ammunition component.
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Re: OLD(!) Handloaders - ID this bullet box??

Post by Griff »

Neat information John... see what a real investigator can do... :P I'd never seen those boxes, they just reminded me of the early Sierra I used to buy.
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JohndeFresno
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Re: OLD(!) Handloaders - ID this bullet box??

Post by JohndeFresno »

Griff wrote:Neat information John... see what a real investigator can do... :P I'd never seen those boxes, they just reminded me of the early Sierra I used to buy.
Thanks, Griff!
Yes, the Sierra rep told me that their early boxes were similar to these in that they were reinforced in the corners with those funny looking stamped metal patterned corner braces. I believe that this is what you remembered.
BamaFaninMilton
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Re: OLD(!) Handloaders - ID this bullet box??

Post by BamaFaninMilton »

Hello, I know that I am late to the party joining this discussion, but I have 3 boxes of these Trophy bullets and this is the only place that I have found with any information concerning them. Are these the same bullets being discussed?
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Re: OLD(!) Handloaders - ID this bullet box??

Post by GunnyMack »

Yes those are the same bullets.
JohnDefresno has left the forum, never did hear how those bullets shot...
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Re: OLD(!) Handloaders - ID this bullet box??

Post by BamaFaninMilton »

GunnyMack wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:39 am Yes those are the same bullets.
JohnDefresno has left the forum, never did hear how those bullets shot...
Thanks for the reply, GunnyMack! Did Mr. Defresno confirm that these bullets were made by the same company that made Trophy Bonded Bear Claws? I read what he posted, but I'm still confused on whether or not it was Mr. Jack Carter's company that made them.
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Re: OLD(!) Handloaders - ID this bullet box??

Post by GunnyMack »

I don't know,I kind of think so but I'm not sure if John D ever nailed it down.
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