Duplex Loading the .44-40

[Shasta]

I am considering testing .44-40 caliber duplex loads of Fg, FFg, FFFg using a 10% IMR 4759 priming charge in my 1873 rifles, the purpose being to reduce black powder fouling during 15 shot silhouette relays. One rifle is an original Winchester from 1880, the other a Uberti reproduction.
My attempts at internet searching the subject seem to veer off to the .45-70 caliber, which I have duplexed in the past with very good results. I don't want to re-invent the wheel, as it were, so was wondering if anyone here on the Leverguns forum, (I'm especially thinking of the esteemed and highly experienced .44-40 expert Mr. John Kort) might have already done this and could share their experiences?

SHASTA

[Lefty Dude]

Let me know how far the side plate goes after the links blow-out. Keep you head low as the Bolt part your hair.
May I suggest 5% instead of 10%. The 45-70 case is twice the volume of the 44WCF.
Either way I would not attempt this with my 73 44WCF. 92 yes, and maybe. 73 NO !

[BrentD]

Unpredicted pressure excursions may result, according to the highly regarded and late Doc Gunn.

My question is why do you want to do this anyway? If you want the challenge and authenticity of using black the leave the smokeless on the shelf.

If you want the hassle-free ease and accuracy of smomeless, then forego the black.

I went down this road briefly until it dawned on me that it led nowhere I wanted to go.

[sureshot]

I have used my Uberti '73 in 44-40 for silhouettes using Swiss FFFG and just run a slightly damp boresnake through it between relays.
I tested it once to see how many shots I could fire without cleaning before accuracy started to fall off at 100yds and had 29 rounds go in a 3" group and the 30th one went outside the group by 2".
Plenty good for pistol cartridge silhouette.
If I remember right the load was 35gr or so, but will vary with make of brass.
I use the RCBS 200gr FN bullet with 20/1 alloy.

I'm with Lefty Dude on the duplex loads.

Steve

[J Miller]

Shasta,

I'm not a black powder shooter but I do read about it. Here's a thread by our own W30WCF that really is worth the reading: { viewtopic.php?f=1&t=62009 }.

Personally I see no reason for duplex loads if one uses bullets that carry enough lube, sized for the bore.


Joe

[arjunky]

Maybe KirkD has some answers? I remember he had quite a post a few years ago.

Byron

[Griff]

I have often considered duplex loads... but have resisted the temptation to experiment as there is not really any GOOD reliable information on such. I read a lot of "...so & so said you could do this" or "I heard..." and to me... that just doesn't cut it. Give me lots of lube and good, quality BP... and I'm happy.

[buckeyeshooter]

I shoot a 66 in 44-40 for CAS. I load 35 grains of Goex FFG with a standard pistol primer and a 200 grain lead bullet. This combo shoots 6 stages of 10 rifle shots per stage with no cleaning needed and zero blowback in the action.
I would NEVER try a duplex load in a toggle link gun. They are just not designed to handle a high pressure load. If you were shooting a 92 clone, that might be different.

[earlmck]

I like your spirit of exploration, Shasta. I'll be interested in what you figure out, even though I don't at the moment feel the need to make a similar exploration. My only experience duplexing black powder kind of went the other way: I used a little (5 grains or so) black as primer to set off the smokeless in my muzzle loader. Same reason as you, though: I wanted many many shots without fouling problems. The caps I was using weren't potent enough to set off the smokeless, so I had to use the easily ignited black to make the smokeless go. And that worked.

I guess if I were starting out to do a duplex with black powder I'd do something similar and put the smokeless in on top of the black. And use enough of the smokeless to make a real difference in the amount of residue.

And yes, I also would feel better about the experimenting if using a model 92 clone. Just in case.

[Nath]

Two words Sir.

Grease&cookie.

N

[w30wcf]

Shasta,
While I partially agree with the pards, I have run some duplex cartridges through my original '73 (1882) with no issues.
That was about 10 years ago and my reason for doing so was that the barrel which is far from perfect, would foul quickly and accuracy would go out of the window in short order.

Lyman had published some data including pressure in their Cast Bullet Handbook on duplex loads in the 45-70. Interestingly with a 322 gr bullet, the pressure between 70 / of Goex FFG and a 63 Goex FFG / 7 grs 4759 was pretty much identical (14,700 vs 14,900). With a 400 gr bullet the same loads produced 16,400 & 18,700 respectively.

Based on that....since the 44-40 has a lighter bullet and charge my feeling that a duplex of 4/4759 under 30 / Goex FFG Should be plenty safe. I decided on the lesser charge of 30 grs instead of 36 grs because I reasoned that since 16 grs of 4759 = the velocity of 40 grs of FFG then 1 gr. of 4759 was ballistically = to 2.5 grs of b.p. Therefore, 4 grs of 4759 was = to 10 grs of black. Thus 40-10= 30 grs b.p. + 4 grs. 4759.

Anyway, it worked well and I could shoot many rounds without the lest than perfect barrel fouling out.

HOWEVER, If I were to do it today in my vintage '73, I would use RL7 instead of 4759. The reason being is that a capacity load of RL7 has been tested by Hercules Powder (now Alliant) in the .44-40 and generated pressures well within the SAAMI MAP for the .44-40 and that was with a heavier 240 gr bullet. So....technically one could use any amount of RL7 and fill the rest of the capacity with b.p. and not exceed b.p. pressures.

I have since found that better b.p.'s like Swiss and lately Olde Enysford work much better than Goex to keep things running well for many rounds (100+ using the standard 2 groove bullet) in a smooth barrel. In the vintage '73 with the less than perfect barrel, the additional lube of the Accurate 43-215C in combination with the less fouling properties of those two powders will allow that rifle to shoot accurately for many rounds.

w30wcf

[Shasta]

Thank you for your replies, gentlemen, you've given me plenty to think about.

Like Mr. Kort, one of my main reasons for pursuing a duplex load is the rather rough bore on my original 1873. It is a 28" barrel that fouls very quickly, even when using my deep grooved Accurate bullets (black powder lube, of course). It requires a great deal of scrubbing to get it clean after firing just fifteen or twenty rounds. It shoots very well with a charge of Reloader 7, but I would enjoy using black powder if I could just make it a little less troublesome.
My experience duplexing a Sharps .45-70 some years ago was extremely positive. The barrel stayed clean much longer, and the brass was much easier to clean also. I did not keep it up for long because duplex loads were not allowed for BPCR silhouette competition. There is no such restriction for the Cowboy Lever Action Rifle Silhouette disciplines, and so it has been on my mind lately.
I think I will start by trying some of the newer and supposedly better black powders before attempting to duplex.

SHASTA

[Nath]

With the correct lube and plenty of it you may not need to get it squeaky clean after use!
Just use some olive oil on a few patches and no corrosion will take place.
The bullet lube should season the bore!
Muzzleloaders often have to run a wet patch down some barrels and in my opinion olive oil is the best.

Evan my smoothbore get crusty so out come the leather and olive oil cookies. No crusty loading for a few more shots!

Just thoughts, got to be less fiddle than duplex!

N

[Dusty Texian]

I have no experience with Duplex loading , so cant help you there Shasta. But I do shoot an original 1873 Winchester 28" oct. barrel .44wcf cal. The bore on my rifle has very good lands and some small pitting in the grooves a not perfect barrel but not bad. I did not notice what Brand of Bp. you have been using. I have found that 2ff Swiss Bp. with std. primers and home made lube 50/50 deer tallow and wax a groove fitting bullet over a charge of enough Bp. to compress about 1/16th" gives a very clean burn and is very accurate. I cast most bullets for this rifle on the soft side. Another plus is the case clean-up is very easy also. I am waiting on a delivery of Old Eynsford Bp. Spelling? I have heard from a number of experienced Bp. shooters that this Old E. is a very good powder. My Bp. load is good ,but If not for all of the tinkering and testing ,it would not be as much fun. Good Luck with your reloading,,,,,,,DT

[earlmck]

Well this looks like it might be fun to try. I have a replica '92 (Rossi) and a replica High-Wall Winchester (Sharps) and half a can of black left over from muzzle loader shooting, and a big can of 3031 (a tad slower than RL-7, but I'm hording my remaining RL-7 at the moment). I'm guessing you could put in whatever amount of black gave satisfactory smoke and fill the rest of the case with 3031 and have a kewl load?

My black powder says it is FFFg made by "Gearhart-Owen Industries, Inc; Moosic, Pennsylvania". Is this what has now become the Goex brand?

[BrentD]

It was. Goex has moved to Minden, Louisianna and was bought out by, Hornady? I don't recall. That is pretty old stuff you have, and probably better than new vintage powder from Goex.

[w30wcf]

Thank you for your replies, gentlemen, you've given me plenty to think about.

Like Mr. Kort, one of my main reasons for pursuing a duplex load is the rather rough bore on my original 1873. It is a 28" barrel that fouls very quickly, even when using my deep grooved Accurate bullets (black powder lube, of course). It requires a great deal of scrubbing to get it clean after firing just fifteen or twenty rounds. It shoots very well with a charge of Reloader 7, but I would enjoy using black powder if I could just make it a little less troublesome.
My experience duplexing a Sharps .45-70 some years ago was extremely positive. The barrel stayed clean much longer, and the brass was much easier to clean also. I did not keep it up for long because duplex loads were not allowed for BPCR silhouette competition. There is no such restriction for the Cowboy Lever Action Rifle Silhouette disciplines, and so it has been on my mind lately.
I think I will start by trying some of the newer and supposedly better black powders before attempting to duplex.

SHASTA

Howdy Shasta,
I am sure that if you try Swiss or Olde Enysford you will definitely see a difference as compared to standard Goex.

In my '73 with it's somewhat rough barrel using the standard 2 lube groove bullet (427098) lubed with SPG ...
Goex FFG - group started opening up by the 7th shot and by the 10th shot the bullets were starting to partially keyhole
Swiss FFG - good accuracy maintained for about 18 shots then the group started to open up

Bullet: Accurate 43-215C
Swiss FFG - good accuracy maintained for 30 rounds (most tried at 1 time)

By comparison in the smooth barrel on my Marlin Cowboy 44-40 .....
427098 / Goex FFG - groups start to open after a dozen rounds
43-215C / Goex FFG - accuracy maintained for many many rounds (50+)

427098 / Swiss FFG - accuracy maintained for many many rounds (50+)
recent testing with Olde Enysford gave results similar to Swiss.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Shasta,
I was wondering if you ever tried a duplex loading and if so, what the results were.

w30wcf

[Shasta]

Shasta,
I was wondering if you ever tried a duplex loading and if so, what the results were.

w30wcf

John,

Thanks for asking, and yes, I did do some duplex load testing shortly after posting this thread about a year ago. Despite all the dire warnings of some, I and both my rifles survived. I did not report on my activities as I got the feeling that most here did not think it wise to be messing with duplexing.

The loads I tested in both rifles consisted of an approximately 210 gr. Accurate Molds 433205C bullet over 4.0 grains of Reloder 7 topped by 30.0 grains by weight of some old G.O.I. FFg with a single milk carton wad under the bullet. Gearhart Owens Industries (GOI) was a predecessor of Goex that went out of business back in the early eighties, but I have a whole keg of it that I need to use up.

I shoot my five shot groups at 50 yards because that works well with my sheet paper size targets. Much further and the front bead covers the entire paper. Velocities measured over my Ohler 35P chronograph were not much different than straight black, with my original Winchester 28" averaging 1,203 fps and the Navy Arms replica 24" averaging 1,198 fps.

I tried both smokeless lube (White Label BAC) and my homemade Paul Matthews formula black power lube (beeswax, Neatsfoot Oil, Neutrogena Facial Soap). The smokeless lube caused hard fouling, while the BP lube kept fouling moist and soft. I compared Federal Large Pistol Magnum and Standard primers. The standard seemed to do the best. All the duplex loads tended to leave some granules of smokeless powder residue in the bore, but the black powder fouling was definitely much less, and for some reason had a lighter color.

Most groups were nothing to brag on, running upwards of 3 inches, but I did get several in the range of one and a half to two inches, which was pretty good for my eyes and iron sights. (I have since had cataract surgery and can see better now). Both rifles performed nearly identically.

I really should do some more work on this, but many other interests intervene. I also discovered that Olde Eynsford black powder burns moist with much less fouling than regular Goex in the old Winchester, and I need to test that some more too. Might save the trouble of duplexing.

Meanwhile, here is a picture of the best group shot with the old 1880 vintage Winchester:




Shasta

[Nath]

Thanks for the report.
The bp lube you used sounds good.
Is there water present in any of the ingredients?

N.

[w30wcf]

Shasta,
Thank you for the report. Glad to see that you had some success. Just a reminder to those reading this, duplex loading is beneficial in older rifles having pitted bores where with a straight b.p. charge, fouling will build up pretty quickly in the barrel recesses and accuracy will go downhill rather quickly. NOT JUST ANY SMOKELESS POWDER CAN BE USED!!!

One thing that most folks don't realize is that the early Semi-Smokeless powder (King's) contained 20% of smokeless in its formulation which also included the other components of b.p. It was said that it produced velocities of up to 10% greater than straight b.p. and the pressures had been recorded as being the same as b.p. It was for use in all b.p. rifles / cartridges and was to be loaded just like b.p.

I have had the opportunity to test some vintage PETERS Semi-Smokeless 44-40 cartridges and they indeed produced velocities of 1,430 f.p.s. avg. which is almost spot on to the 10% improvement claim. Lesmok was the DuPont version of Semi-Smokeless powder.

That being said, late last year I tested up to 20% by weight of RL7 under the b.p. charge. At this point I would like to remind the reader that a capacity load of RL-7 was tested by Hercules under a heavier 240 gr bullet and it produced pressures that were 10% under SAMMI MAP for the .44-40. That means that any amount of RL-7 under a b.p. charge is plenty safe. DO NOT SUSTITUTE ANY OTHER POWDER!!

A combination of 20% RL-7 and Goex FFG produced 1,316 f.p.s. average in a 24" barrel. Accuracy was very good.

Shasta,
I can't recall what the groove diameters of your rifles are and the diameter of the bullet you are using and the alloy(?).
I am thinking that a .06" thick poly disc under the bullet just might improve accuracy since it would act as a gas check,
helping keep the gas behind the bullet as it transverses the bore.

I recently underwent cataract surgery as well. Much improvement as you said with being able to see the sights much better!
Sadly, I read that Paul Matthews had passed on in 2015.

w30wcf

[3leggedturtle]

Shasta, sounded like a pretty good time of testing and shooting. I'd rather read about what someone has tried and experienced whether it succeeded, or didnt. Than sit and wonder IF it will. Have you ever tried the "full" RL7 loads listed by Alliant in your 44WCF's? Or has any one else? Todd/3leg

[Merle]

I like your spirit of exploration, Shasta. I'll be interested in what you figure out, even though I don't at the moment feel the need to make a similar exploration. My only experience duplexing black powder kind of went the other way: I used a little (5 grains or so) black as primer to set off the smokeless in my muzzle loader. Same reason as you, though: I wanted many many shots without fouling problems. The caps I was using weren't potent enough to set off the smokeless, so I had to use the easily ignited black to make the smokeless go. And that worked.

I guess if I were starting out to do a duplex with black powder I'd do something similar and put the smokeless in on top of the black. And use enough of the smokeless to make a real difference in the amount of residue.

And yes, I also would feel better about the experimenting if using a model 92 clone. Just in case.

Smokeless in a muzzle loader???

[Shasta]

Shasta, sounded like a pretty good time of testing and shooting. I'd rather read about what someone has tried and experienced whether it succeeded, or didnt. Than sit and wonder IF it will. Have you ever tried the "full" RL7 loads listed by Alliant in your 44WCF's? Or has any one else? Todd/3leg

Reloder 7 is one of my favorite powders. My standard smokeless .44-40 load uses 25.0 grains Reloder 7 with a large pistol primer and the 210 grain Accurate 433205C bullet. Velocity is right at 1,405 fps.

For those who may be interested in reading or re-reading more about my experiences loading for and shooting my 1880 vintage Winchester, here is a link to an old thread from 2012:

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=40797


Shasta

[Shasta]

Thanks for the report.
The bp lube you used sounds good.
Is there water present in any of the ingredients?

N.

Nath,

No water is present in the BP lube formula. The exact ingredients are:

1/2 lb. beeswax (don't guess, weigh it exactly)
4 fluid oz. Pure Neatsfoot Oil
3.5 oz. (1 cake) Neutrogena Facial Soap (original formula)

Using a double boiler so you don't overheat, first melt the beeswax, then slowly add in the Neatsfoot Oil and stir until thoroughly mixed with no lumps. Slice the Neutrogena Facial Soap bar into thin peels and add them to the mixture, again stirring thoroughly. Once everything is blended, pour into suitable container and let cool.
I have made myself a mould to make hollow sticks to fit my RCBS Lubrisizer. This lube is working superbly in all my black powder loads.

Shasta

[Nath]

Thanks for the report.
The bp lube you used sounds good.
Is there water present in any of the ingredients?

N.

Nath,

No water is present in the BP lube formula. The exact ingredients are:

1/2 lb. beeswax (don't guess, weigh it exactly)
4 fluid oz. Pure Neatsfoot Oil
3.5 oz. (1 cake) Neutrogena Facial Soap (original formula)

Using a double boiler so you don't overheat, first melt the beeswax, then slowly add in the Neatsfoot Oil and stir until thoroughly mixed with no lumps. Slice the Neutrogena Facial Soap bar into thin peels and add them to the mixture, again stirring thoroughly. Once everything is blended, pour into suitable container and let cool.
I have made myself a mould to make hollow sticks to fit my RCBS Lubrisizer. This lube is working superbly in all my black powder loads.

Shasta

Ahh, I was worried neutrogena was a lotion!

Thanks.

N.

[Griff]

Thanks for the update. I'd never gotten good info on what the percentage was supposed to be of; the full smokeless load or the BP capacity. Being that duplex loads are illegal in SASS, I had no incentive to experiment. But as you say, not so for Cowboy Silhouette. And I'm sure my 45 Colt rifles will like it, if it reduces fouling on the carrier!

[Merle]

Thanks for the update. I'd never gotten good info on what the percentage was supposed to be of; the full smokeless load or the BP capacity. Being that duplex loads are illegal in SASS, I had no incentive to experiment. But as you say, not so for Cowboy Silhouette. And I'm sure my 45 Colt rifles will like it, if it reduces fouling on the carrier!

I'm wondering why not just use full smokeless for Cowboy Silhouette?

[Griff]

Thanks for the update. I'd never gotten good info on what the percentage was supposed to be of; the full smokeless load or the BP capacity. Being that duplex loads are illegal in SASS, I had no incentive to experiment. But as you say, not so for Cowboy Silhouette. And I'm sure my 45 Colt rifles will like it, if it reduces fouling on the carrier!

I'm wondering why not just use full smokeless for Cowboy Silhouette?

You know what they say; once you do black, you'll never go back!

[Nath]

Thanks for the update. I'd never gotten good info on what the percentage was supposed to be of; the full smokeless load or the BP capacity. Being that duplex loads are illegal in SASS, I had no incentive to experiment. But as you say, not so for Cowboy Silhouette. And I'm sure my 45 Colt rifles will like it, if it reduces fouling on the carrier!

I'm wondering why not just use full smokeless for Cowboy Silhouette?

You know what they say; once you do black, you'll never go back!

You know what, while I been fooling with single shot shotguns recently my charcoal burners have taken a back seat.
Feels like I am cheating on them! I dare not look them in the eye!
I know I will have to return, probably with my tail between my legs!

N

[3leggedturtle]

Nath you reload some of the shotshells with blackpowder so you dont feel so guilty!

[Bryan Austin]

I love it when some folks actually know what they are talking about!!!
Thanks John and Shasta....this needed a boot to the top.

[DocRock]

Well, I can tell you what I have done, and not that what I have done is what you should do necessarily.

I based my decision on what I read from Phil Sharpe and Ned Roberts about duplex loading back when it was the done thing, and then I backed off a bit based on my view that gunbugs of that era had a higher tolerance for risk than I do and less data on which to base their views.

I happen to have Kelver's "Major Ned Roberts and The Schuetzen Rifle" on the beside table. His "recommended loads for schuetzen rifles" include

.33/40 Pope: 7-8 grs bulk (by volume) DuPont Shotgun Smokeless Powder or Schuetzen Smokeless Powder. Rest of case filled to 1/4" of mouth with Kentucky Rifle Fg Black

.32/40: 7-8 grs bulk DuPont Shotgun Smokeless Powder or Schuetzen Smokeless Powder. Rest of case filled to 1 /8" of mouth with Kentucky Rifle Fg Black

.28/30: 6 grs bulk DuPont Shotgun Smokeless Powder or Schuetzen Smokeless Powder. Case filled to the top with Kentucky Rifle Fg Black.

I shoot in a local non SASS pre 1898 design competition that includes a 100 yard stage with pistol caliber lever guns.

So, for 45 Long Colt, I used 3 grs, by weight, Alliant 410 shotgun powder and 30 grs weight of Olde Eynsford Ffg in my Marlin 1894 Cowboy Ltd. It did reduce fouling but not enough, in my opinion, to merit continued duplex loading and I didn't have the courage to increase the shotgun powder charge beyond 3 grs. So, I switched to Fffg, added a lube cookie, and shoot the 200 grs J/P Big Lube bullet. Between the Big Lube and an extra cookie, there's a lot of fouling softener going on. That 's how it went for me.

[Carlsen Highway]

I make a similar load in .44-40:

I talked to John Kort a good deal about duplex loads before he passed away and this is what I developed here in discussion with him:

Firstly, duplex loads with black powder and a smokeless priming are time-honoured load and were used a good deal by target shooters in the early years of smokeless powder production. (Duplex loads combining different smoekelss powders are a quite different animal and are not what is being discussed here)

I ended up with a load which was an unsized case, loaded with 6 grains of 4227 underneath 30 grains of 3F Scheutzen. This was compressed by 0.2 of an inch. This is now a solid cake of powder, and the smokeless "priming" cannot migrate anywhere.
With pure lead bullets with 1-2% tin seated on top and lightly crimped just to hold them this load was the most accurate .44-40 load I have with two different rifles (Uberti 73 and a Rossi 92) Both rifles would shoot 5 shots into 1.5 inches with their open sights at 100 metres. I would often shoot the first three shots into an inch.
The bullet was John Korts version of the standard bullet but with a larger lube groove, the lube I used was mostly lard with a bit of beeswax in it and very soft.

I never could get a full black powder load to shoot better than about 3 inch groups at the same range with either rifle. It must be a lube thing but I never solved it.

[DocRock]

I make a similar load in .44-40:

I talked to John Kort a good deal about duplex loads before he passed away and this is what I developed here in discussion with him:

Firstly, duplex loads with black powder and a smokeless priming are time-honoured load and were used a good deal by target shooters in the early years of smokeless powder production. (Duplex loads combining different smoekelss powders are a quite different animal and are not what is being discussed here)

I ended up with a load which was an unsized case, loaded with 6 grains of 4227 underneath 30 grains of 3F Scheutzen. This was compressed by 0.2 of an inch. This is now a solid cake of powder, and the smokeless "priming" cannot migrate anywhere.
With pure lead bullets with 1-2% tin seated on top and lightly crimped just to hold them this load was the most accurate .44-40 load I have with two different rifles (Uberti 73 and a Rossi 92) Both rifles would shoot 5 shots into 1.5 inches with their open sights at 100 metres. I would often shoot the first three shots into an inch.
The bullet was John Korts version of the standard bullet but with a larger lube groove, the lube I used was mostly lard with a bit of beeswax in it and very soft.

I never could get a full black powder load to shoot better than about 3 inch groups at the same range with either rifle. It must be a lube thing but I never solved it.

Thanks for that information. Interesting about 4227. It is my preferred cast bullet powder in rifles, so knowing that it's handy in duplex loads makes me want to revisit the subject. I wonder if the slower burn rate is an important factor? Does it delay combustion until the BP is fully involved, thereby aiding or adding to a fuller combustion of BP components? Interesting. Thanks again.

[Carlsen Highway]

I really couldn't say, I was under the impression that the smokeless priming cleaned up the bore for the next bullet, so acted as if the bullet had a better lube, but I am not sure of the mechanics of it, you could be correct. I am standing on the shoulders of the target shooters of the period, who used loads like these up until the 1920's.

It made no real difference to velocity compared with BP loads of between 36 - 40 grains, slightly slower in fact.

Out of interest, I recall the amount of H4227 was quite specific, as 4 grain or 8 grains resulted in terrible accuracy.

I tried other things trying to get a better full black powder load that was accurate, I tried different cardboards wads or discs of card, grease cookie attempts, and I tried a bit of newsprint over the primer to make a lighter one (the old BP primers were weaker than now) different compression so f powder and amounts, up to the proper 40 grains. Never could get a load anywhere near as good as the BP with H4227 priming.

Actually I will take my .44-40 carbine to the range tomorrow. I have not been to the range for a long time due to one thing and another - covid travel restrictions earlier this year etc. I need to shoot my .44-40.
I have my standard smokeless load which JOhn Kort also helped me with. WE were both trying to make a bulk smokeless load that mimicked the first smokeless load of the time using Dupont bulk powder, which you could load as if it were blackpowder, just fill up the case. This meant you didn't have to worry about crimping under the bullet the way they had to later with smaller amounts of pistol powder; the powder would support the bullet like BP. So no more bullets telescoped into cases in the tube mag of a levergun. This was significant for me because I mostly was using my .44-40 for hunting, so I needed to load and unload the same ammo and the crimps on the thin .44-40 brass will not hold for long no matter what you do - three trips through a magazine tube and most cartridges would be showing the bullet moving back into the case, and some would pop in.
Anyway John did it with RE7, I think it was 27 grains. My load was 26 grains H4198. both of these loads generated pressures safe enough for 1873 rifles, and also gave the proper velocity for a .44-40 - 1300 fps in a 20 inch barrel. Accuracy is acceptable to me - two inch groups at 100 metres.

I am going shooting tomorrow morning then....

[CowboyTutt]

This was a really, really great thread and nothing I have any experience with. Truthfully, I have never been that interested in running black powder, but I appreciate my friends here who do. You guys are way beyond my pay grade in this area of mixing black powder and smokeless. Sorry to hear that John Kort passed away. He was a true wealth of information in his areas of expertise. WOW! But great thread and I "bookmarked" it. Everyone here brought something great to it. Everyone. I'm a "smokeless" guy. No interest in BP. Keep the smokeless loads down to what the rifle they are shooting it can take, even in my 1888 71/84 Mauser. Actually, the pure smokeless loads offer less pressure and stress on the actions of these old rifles as a general rule of thumb. It's why we use them, but also why we are looked down on in certain circles, which is fine. I understand.

But thanks to all who resurrected this thread, its really epic. It was a truly great read for me. Heartfelt thanks Guys. -Tutt

[Bryan Austin]

Carlson Highway, thanks for that information...it has been a continued education!

https://sites.google.com/view/44winches ... plex-loads

[earlmck]

I want to add my "I'll second that motion!" to Bryan Austin and Cowboy Tutt. This has been a fascinating thread, even for those of us who don't burn very much black. I'm embarrassed that I haven't yet tried a little duplexing in my 44/40 or 38/40 but for the 38/40 which is my main cowboy silhouette rifle I don't have a bullet that carries enough lube for black, and my 44/40 just hasn't got much playing time as it is a carbine and not what I would use for silhouette work.

I did mess around a bit with duplex in 45/70 before I got into the BPCR game where it is not allowed. I think I posted here on this forum about my interesting experience there of discovering that there is a good reason for using medium burning rate smokeless rather than fast smokeless for the "pusher". In using WW 244 (same order of fastness as bullseye or red dot) it burned fast enough that the solid chunk of black that forms with much compression got pushed forward intact for a long enough distance to pull the front part of the case along with it and go on up a few inches into the rifling. Whew! that can take some interesting times getting back out! And of course this kid couldn't learn the lesson in one go but had to do it a second time before the lesson dawned.

SR 4759 and H or IMR 4227 have very similar burn rates and seem to have been used successfully for black powder duplexing for many years. And RL-7 sounds even better yet so that may be my first try when I start my playing around.

Let the interesting stuff continue!