Please don't hate me!!! Updated picked up today

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:07 pm

Remeber it is the season to be jolly and gay. Boy how that word's meaning has changed.

I just made a deal on a bolt action rifle! Scoping my beloved levers is starting to become an issue. I really tried to convert myself but I'd rather shoot poorly at 100 yards than scope them. So a bolt action with a scope became my new obsession. I have never owned one of those 1/2moa at 500 yards factory rifles everyone seems to get off the rack on many forums (please read sarcasm between those lines).

A CZ 527 American in left hand and 223 showed up used a little ways away. We agreed on a good deal for both of us so it includes rifle, near new condition, rings, and new RCBS dies. We shake hands on Friday after a quick inspection. The rifle is a 1 in 12 twist micro-mauser (couldn't find a micro-LeeEnfield), with the original 5 shot clip bottom metal. As one reviewer noted a magnet sticks to everything but the walnut and rubber butt. The Browning X-bolt 223 was in the running but I have a prejudice against "space age polymer".

Anything you want to advise about the CZ, good or bad, and the 5.56mm Nato round please shout away.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:17 pm

.

The only thing I did to mine (it wasn't LH) was to have fellow forum member rbertalotto (Thanks, again, Roy ! ) do his (inexpensive) magic on the bottom metal - which involved removing the delta wings on each side of the magazine opening just ahead of the triggerguard, refinishing the surgery, & modifying the magazine so it fits flush with the stock bottom line.

http://rvbprecision.com/shooting/cz-527 ... rsion.html

BTW: No need to send the rifle to him - just send the bottom metal & magazine.

.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:19 pm

You will love that gun!

What are the people gonna say when you start dropping those big bucks with that gun?

believe me it will.

.223 Rem great
5.56 NATO great

I am 99% sure that bolt gun s/b dandy with about any 5.56 rd you will find. Verify with CZ tech though.
Last I knew coming from those guys, 5.56 NATO out of that gun was ok?

That gun s/b extremely accurate. See article below.
http://www.realguns.com/articles/240.htm

Kill power, ask the 200lb wide 8 point in the mount shop I wacked this year with one! (.223)

Awesome gun!

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:22 pm

I had a CZ 527 in .22 hornet it was so good my son fell in love with it and now I don't own it any more.
Accurate and reliable well made little rifle, I'm sure you'll enjoy it....

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:29 pm

madman4570 wrote:You will love that gun!

What are the people gonna say when you start dropping those big bucks with that gun? believe me it will.
.223 Rem great
5.56 NATO great

I am 99% sure that bolt gun s/b dandy with about any 5.56 rd you will find. Verify with CZ tech though.
Last I knew coming from those guys, 5.56 NATO out of that gun was ok?

That gun s/b extremely accurate. See article below.
http://www.realguns.com/articles/240.htm

Kill power, ask the 200lb wide 8 point in the mount shop I wacked this year with one! (.223)
Awesome gun!

This is true...
A guy I work with dropped his 4th deer this year with a .223 Rem.
Very nice looking rifle Bob

rangerider7 · Post by **rangerider7** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:33 pm

Great rifle! I have owned two of them. RR7

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:42 pm

game keeper wrote:
I had a CZ 527 in .22 hornet it was so good my son fell in love with it and now I don't own it any more.

And here, GK - I thought I was alone in the world ! .

.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:52 pm

I fed a Mexican construction crew 9 New Mexico mule deer with a Rem.788 .222 reamed to .223.
Just shoot the way the guy that taught you to shoot taught you.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 6:19 pm

Bob, I am

I have been looking at those for some time. The only thing that causes me to pause is the 1:12 twist. Maybe someone that has one can set me straight. I was thinking the 1:12 won't shoot the heavier 62 gr bullets which is what I was interested in.
I have a .22 mag CZ with the Manlicher stock that I love. Almost got the .223 when I got that one but the twist made me go with the .22 Mag instead.

Marvin S · Post by **Marvin S** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 6:28 pm

Really nice, left hand and all. Looks like it needs lower rings though.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 6:37 pm

Hate You!!! No way. We own and shoot levers because we enjoy them and hunting with them brings us closer to our roots. But when we want or need precision the bolt gun is the rifle of choice.
When I was a kid every gun writer would brag about owning a minute of angle rifle and today if a center fire bolt gun wont keep them in less than an inch at 100yd. it is thought of as a lemon.

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 6:37 pm

game keeper wrote:I had a CZ 527 in .22 hornet it was so good my son fell in love with it and now I don't own it any more.
Accurate and reliable well made little rifle, I'm sure you'll enjoy it....

GK, your earlier story earlier planted the seed for this rifle.

The CZ 527 Varmint rifle is built with a 1 in 9 twist for the 223 so heavy weight bullets are possible.

The comment about 5.56 Nato was in fun. Only confirmed 223 loads allowed.

Pete, one of my first questions was to find out if a mod was possible to use short mags without the angled wedge. I figured I might have to buy the new bottom metal for the new CZ 527 American M1. Thanks for the heads up. Now to check on cross border shipping! Edit: Sadly Roy's website notes he can't ship mags over the border due to Homeland Security I believe, USA only.

One of the less than perfect features of the rifle from its mauser heritage is bolt clearance on large lens scopes so I understand the factory applied rings are tall. The following link shows a picture and the fix seems easy enough if lower rings have a problem on the scope it gets outfitted with. The pictured scope is available for about $300, a Leupold VX2 3-9X40. I'm considering it but not really leaning that way so deal was without scope. I'll be driving everyone nuts with "which scope and rings threads" soon. Once the rifle is home I will look into mods for a low ring set because that is where I think the scopes belongs unless stock fit dictates otherwise.

http://www.realguns.com/articles/240.htm

This is the second rifle since I wrote my "no more guns needed" thread once. A friendly note to others contemplating such a post, lol!

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 6:49 pm

Very fine rifle indeed, you are going to be VERY HAPPY.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:00 pm

Rusty wrote:Bob, I am

I have been looking at those for some time. The only thing that causes me to pause is the 1:12 twist. Maybe someone that has one can set me straight. I was thinking the 1:12 won't shoot the heavier 62 gr bullets which is what I was interested in.
I have a .22 mag CZ with the Manlicher stock that I love. Almost got the .223 when I got that one but the twist made me go with the .22 Mag instead.

62 gr fine. actually bullets even heavier depends on each own gun. I use 60gr partitions.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:15 pm

Very nice bro, my buddy out west asks me every time I talk to him if I got one of those yet.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:28 pm

madman4570 wrote:
Rusty wrote:Bob, I am

I have been looking at those for some time. The only thing that causes me to pause is the 1:12 twist. Maybe someone that has one can set me straight. I was thinking the 1:12 won't shoot the heavier 62 gr bullets which is what I was interested in.
I have a .22 mag CZ with the Manlicher stock that I love. Almost got the .223 when I got that one but the twist made me go with the .22 Mag instead.

62 gr fine. actually bullets even heavier depends on each own gun. I use 60gr partitions.

You ARE NOT making this any easier.

gundownunder · Post by **gundownunder** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:38 pm

I'm happy for you, and do agree with you that good rifles are made from walnut and steel.

My understanding is that 5.56 NATO ammo should not be fired in civilian sporting rifles due to higher pressures in the NATO ammo.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that you can change the angle, or shape of the bolt handle on the Mauser action to provide clearance for a lower profile scope.

Don't believe the bulldust about needing a bolt gun to shoot sub-moa, I had a BLR .222 fitted with a Remington barrel that would do it all day every day with 5 shot groups, not just 3.

Joe S. · Post by **Joe S.** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:39 pm

looks good! i like the 527!

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:32 pm

Canuck Bob wrote:
Pete, one of my first questions was to find out if a mod was possible to use short mags without the angled wedge.

Edit: Sadly Roy's website notes he can't ship mags over the border due to Homeland Security I believe, USA only.

One of the less than perfect features of the rifle from its mauser heritage is bolt clearance on large lens scopes so I understand the factory applied rings are tall.

I would suggest, instead of looking at Roy's website, that you actually communicate with him here via PM - I'm sure he can redeux your bottom metal w/o running afoul of HS.

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/membe ... ile&u=6841

It might also be possibe for him to also shorten your magazine, IF you strip the magazine of it's floorplate, spring & follower - and just send the shell/sidewalls back/forth.
It just might be that the sheet metal sides, not being a complete magazine, could pass HS scrutiny.

It's worth a conversation with him, IMHO.

Worst case, shorten your mag, yourself - AFAIK, only the sidewalls/shell needs to have the bottom trimmed off, and (maybe) the mag spring altered.

Also, IME low rings are a non-starter on the CZ-527, due to it being a mini-Mauser with a long bolt handle - any lower & the bolt handle won't make it past a scope's eyepiece during cycling.

.

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:41 pm

I'll email Roy after Christmas.

The bolt handle thing is real. It appears CZ USA does or did sell a modified bolt handle for the 527. No hint of it available in Canada. A lefty bolt may be a problem as well. There is mention of modding the handle to work with a grinder and files. This is something I would do if necessary.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:57 pm

gundownunder wrote: My understanding is that 5.56 NATO ammo should not be fired in civilian sporting rifles due to higher pressures in the NATO ammo.

Wrong!

Check with each Mfg. but overall a bolt gun is MUCH stronger than a semi auto action.

Bob,
Please look to below for exact answer about using 5.56 for your CZ (from CZ USA themselves)
Second question please.

http://cz-usa.com/faq/

To insist only using .223 in that gun just because, Why? Your call though, your gun!
I'd try both!

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:59 am

madman4570 wrote:
gundownunder wrote: My understanding is that 5.56 NATO ammo should not be fired in civilian sporting rifles due to higher pressures in the NATO ammo.

Wrong!

Check with each Mfg. but overall a bolt gun is MUCH stronger than a semi auto action.

Bob,
Please look to below for exact answer about using 5.56 for your CZ (from CZ USA themselves)
Second question please.

http://cz-usa.com/faq/

To insist only using .223 in that gun just because, Why? Your call though, your gun!
I'd try both!

Thanks Madman, I would use 5.56 Nato loaded ammo without worrying one bit. I might be wrong but we have no access to military ammo in 5.56X45 for all I know (looking just in case). Unless loading serious big game ammo I always load somewhere between start and half way to max. charge. That is what I was referring to above about manuals. I like low stress on the rifle and easy on the throat and brass being half Scots. I have never heard of a reported blow-up using military ammo. Reports might be out there but they sure aren't common.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:05 am

Ha ! -- No hatin' here ! I have posted range reports of my Glocks and .357's before --- I would say a side lever is even more appropriate for the board than those ----

but I know this is technically a leverguns oriented website, and oftentimes leverguns are at the forefront of my thoughts and dreams (well, firearms related ones that is) --- the populace on here has more real world street smarts about most weapons systems than the crowd at some other websites

I really want a CZ Safari edition in 375 H&H !

-- I can channel my inner Capstick !

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:37 am

CZ anything is good...had a .22cal and a .308, both shot better than me...great choice in bolt gun... :)

samb · Post by **samb** » Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:54 am

I love the looks of your new gun. Been dreaming of a CZ for a while. Enjoy! Merry Christmas.

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:28 am

they do it right in Brno.

GonnePhishin · Post by **GonnePhishin** » Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:55 am

Canuck Bob said:

Remeber it is the season to be jolly and gay. Boy how that word's meaning has changed.

Yeah bob, I think you should change that first tag line to maybe 'Jolly and Happy'

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:55 am

Streetstar wrote:
I really want a CZ Safari edition in 375 H&H ! -- I can channel my inner Capstick !

The one I had was very nice.......... with a 2nd recoil lug in the forestock, a settable trigger, and very decent open/iron sights.

The only things I did to mine was to use Burris/CZ rings (to mount a Leupold M8-3x) ILO the el-crapo CZ rings, and move the forward sling QD stud off the forend & onto a barrel ring.

I flush-inlayed a cut-off .375H&H case head in the old QD location/hole in the forend wood, reamed-out a tad to accept it.

.

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:14 am

a buddy looking for an O/U bought a new CZ Upland Sterling off my basic recommendation.
http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/UplandSterling/

North Country Gal · Post by **North Country Gal** » Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:40 am

If someone hasn't already mentioned it, I should warn you that CZs are every bit as addictive as lever guns. Don't ask me to pick my favorite CZ, but my 527 in 22 Hornet is just, well, magic. By the way, I have bolt guns for much the same reason as you - so I dont have to scope my lever guns.

piller · Post by **piller** » Wed Dec 25, 2013 8:17 am

A friend and fellow Pharmacist has one of those. He is also left handed. I have shot his rifle, and from the bench, it being a left handed version is not even a problem. Tony's rifle is much more accurate than he or I, and it will let us put 20 rounds in the bulls eye at 100 yards. I did it once. If I can do it once, the rifle can do it any time. .223 and 5.56 Nato have a slight difference in the length of the throat in the rifle, and some ammunition takes advantage of that. If the round will chamber easily, it shouldn't be a problem. I think it is only a problem with the shorter Match Rifle type of chambers and throats. I, however, am not an expert.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:00 pm

madman4570 wrote:
gundownunder wrote: My understanding is that 5.56 NATO ammo should not be fired in civilian sporting rifles due to higher pressures in the NATO ammo.

Wrong!
Check with each Mfg. but overall a bolt gun is MUCH stronger than a semi auto action.
To insist only using .223 in that gun just because, Why? Your call though, your gun!
I'd try both!

This is very poor advice. There is a difference between .223 and 5.56. Not all bolt guns are stronger than semi-autos, and the diference is not about strengths of the rifles, but about pressures of the cartridges. 5.56 is loaded to different pressures, but it is the chamber dimensions that make the difference. 5.56 can build unsafe pressures in a .223 chamber. People often get away with it because many guns marked .223 actually have 5.56 chambers, a lot of cheaper 5.56 marked ammo is loaded to lower pressures, and a lot of rifles have some margin of safety. Still, it is not safe thing to do. Keep in mind that the .223 and 5.56 are already very high-pressure cartridges - much higher pressure cartridges than a lot of the larger ones we are used to shooting.

In this case, the link you provided shows that it is safe to shoot 5.56 in the CZ rifles because they cut their chambers to a dimension that is safe for 5.56. It does not prove that it is fine to just throw 5.56 ammo in any .223 rife.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:05 pm

I love those rifles. I am not too big on the slow twist rate, because I tend toward heavier bullets in the .223, but the 1/9 twist on some is not too bad.

One day, if I ever scrape the money together, I will pick up the carbine in 7.62x39 and rebarrel to 6.5 Grendel. 16" or 18" barrel. That would make the handiest little carbine, still with long-range capability, and a great little rifle for the kids to hunt moose, caribou, and deer.

It would be almost as handy to carry as a lever gun!

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:13 pm

That is why I bought a milled receiver Romainian SKS.
It will have a 6.5 Grendel barrel.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:29 pm

Mescalero wrote:That is why I bought a milled receiver Romainian SKS.
It will have a 6.5 Grendel barrel.

The Romanian barrels are threaded, right?

That will be really cool. You should see the AKs that Marc Krebbs has built in 6.5 Grendel. He came up with a gas system that gives him sniper-level accuracy out of an AK. I have photos, but I am not allowed to share them.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:31 pm

Yes.
Thats why I bought it.
It will be nice, wo'nt it?

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:51 pm

7.62 Precision wrote:
madman4570 wrote:
gundownunder wrote: My understanding is that 5.56 NATO ammo should not be fired in civilian sporting rifles due to higher pressures in the NATO ammo.

Wrong!
Check with each Mfg. but overall a bolt gun is MUCH stronger than a semi auto action.
To insist only using .223 in that gun just because, Why? Your call though, your gun!
I'd try both!
This is very poor advice. There is a difference between .223 and 5.56. Not all bolt guns are stronger than semi-autos, and the diference is not about strengths of the rifles, but about pressures of the cartridges. 5.56 is loaded to different pressures, but it is the chamber dimensions that make the difference. 5.56 can build unsafe pressures in a .223 chamber. People often get away with it because many guns marked .223 actually have 5.56 chambers, a lot of cheaper 5.56 marked ammo is loaded to lower pressures, and a lot of rifles have some margin of safety. Still, it is not safe thing to do. Keep in mind that the .223 and 5.56 are already very high-pressure cartridges - much higher pressure cartridges than a lot of the larger ones we are used to shooting.

In this case, the link you provided shows that it is safe to shoot 5.56 in the CZ rifles because they cut their chambers to a dimension that is safe for 5.56. It does not prove that it is fine to just throw 5.56 ammo in any .223 rife.

Dude, Kinda strange you left out middle of the most important info ON THAT POST which was directly from his guns mfg pertaining to his gun. Don't ya think?

Some people just like to argue. I sometimes get pi##ed and don't let things drop easily because some yahoo just wants to crank people.

Did you read my full post, what did I say ? Check with each what? Now, don't stop keep reading cause I got more.

Give me names and proof of which decent newer bolt action models in which you speak of chambered in .223 that the Mfg clearly states will not handle the 5.56 safely ? My response gave the absolute best answer on this post? Not saying in any way they all do,but this one did.

Unless you think you or anyone on here knows more about this particular question that Bob had than CZ Corp. itself

Here maybe when you read stuff you have an issue skipping sentences? Reread it.
http://cz-usa.com/faq/

Good lord, if you have conflict with that answer I gave. I pity who has to live with you!

ps BTW, "OVERALL" Adjective to mean---------taking everything into account.

Now your statement used in that context---Keep in mind that the .223 and 5.56 are already very high-pressure cartridges - much higher pressure cartridges than a lot of the larger ones we are used to shooting.

When you get your .22-250 or .220 Swift shooting HOT compressed handloads let me know?
Or even your 300 Ultra Mag.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:03 pm

I would suggest that you re-read my post.

And I will stand by my statement that 5.56 should not be fired in any rifle chambered for .223. I have spoken with those who know a lot more about this stuff than I do - the guys at Black Hills in discussing their loads, for example, and Hornady too. If they say don't do it, I'll take their word for it.

I will also stand by may statement that the 5.56 and the .223 are higher pressure cartridges than most people think. The fact that you can list some cartridges that have higher chamber pressures does not change this. Don't assume anything - look up the max chamber pressures for .223 Rem and .220 swift and tell me how much the difference is. The problem with .223 and 5.56 is that people assume they are lower pressure cartridges because they are smaller, and handle them with less care. On top of that, everyone seems to have this need to max out every cartridge. The 5.56 could become a wicked little grenade in a .223 chamber. Can you tell me what the max chamber pressure differences are between 5.56 and .223?

As I said in the last post, CZ's statement does not mean that is is safe to shoot 5.56 in .223 chambers - it means that they have a chamber dimensioned for shooting 5.56 safely, due to building to the CIP standard, which means their chambers have to handle 5.56.

It is very common for rifles to be chambered for 5.56, but marked .223. If they are marked .223 nd chambered for .223, don't shoot 5.56 in them.

I saw reported in one test a 55 gr. 5.56 load averaged over 17,500 psi above the SAMMI max safe chamber pressure for .223 when fired in a .223 chamber.

Not trying to start a fight, just want to make sure we give good, safe, and well researched advice.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:06 pm

Still will stick by my post.
Provide me one documented case where any "decent" Mfg bolt weapon has BLOWN UP firing 5.56 Nato ??

Guess I better tell all the boys at the rifle club stop using their Lake City cases shooting 1000's of reloads in Win. M70's, Rem M700's, Ruger M77's on and on.

Cause they been shooting them just dandy for decades.

Note: I said " Check with Gun Mfg first"
Also stand by my general statement that the bolt guns are built stronger than semi's etc.

Notice, I also said with the .22-250 and ,220 swift I said when I load max'd compressed handloads.

If CZ gun Techs say that gun is safe for 5.56 I would shoot my 5.56 handloads all day long. For decades this issue has been going back and forth and also notice many Mfgs don't even like any handloads via warranty/legal issues.

Do what makes ya feel all warm and fuzzy!

JMHO

Guess you boys might want to stop loading up your bigger longer bullets in your 45-70's cause them bullets might be getting close to your Marlin's rifling and blow your gun up too!

Bob, brother if it makes you feel safe just shoot the ,223's

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:20 pm

Here is what CZ says from their own website:

Q: "Can CZ rifles chambered in .223 fire 5.56 ammunition safely?"
A: All of our .223s will happily eat 5.56. Since our factory is in Europe, we build everything to CIP spec, which doesn’t differentiate between the two cartridges and just has the higher pressure as its standard. So the CZ .223s will shoot everything from the cheapest Russian steel to match .223 brass ammo.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:36 pm

Another thing to remember is that with chamber pressure(case head pressure specifically) that is relative to its energy in regards to receiver/bolt face trauma. Just like big the bullet its force enters into the equation meaning the larger the diameter of given surface, be it a bullet at impact or a case head of a cartridge the greater its energy and required lower amount of pressure causing "a break spec"

Meaning a .223 force with 100,000 psi would not even begin to reach "force" of a .378 Weatherby of only 65,000 psi. trauma to receiver/bolt face tec.)

JMHO

Shoot a concrete block with a 22-250 @ 3850fps then shoot one with a 12ga slug @ 1600fps

Again, if you ever find where a 5.56 blew up any well made know bolt .223 cal gun that one would own.(Ruger,Winchester,Remington,Browning,Savage,Mossberg,CZ,etc) please let me know!

CEMENTHEAD · Post by **CEMENTHEAD** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:59 pm

James Calhoon does a modified bolt handle (exchange)and lower scope mounts if anybody is interested.

Here's the link:

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/pricelist.php

Good stuff in my opinion.

Have fun, Tom

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:04 pm

I know lots of people who drive drunk too, and never got hurt.
You can do whatever you want. Just remember, it is not always you that gets hurt.

I am not going to look around for photos of a rifle blown apart, I don't need to. Prove to me that none have ever been damaged if you like.

The specs and limits were developed for a reason be people who are a lot more experienced in this stuff than we are. I will follow their advice. I have spoken with people who really know their stuff, and they say don't do it.

No one seems to be able to read my first post in which I said clearly that CZ said it was safe to shoot 5.56 in all of their rifles because they use a different chamber dimension. That does not mean it is safe to shoot 5.56 in a .223 chamber.

This is not the first time that you have posted stuff that flies in the face of both common sense and standards, knowledge, or techniques that have been developed by experienced people who know their stuff and have had the ability to really test it.

I never said anything about handloads for .45-70s or anything else like that. Don't put words in my mouth. I am fine with heavy loads like that as long as they do not exceed the pressures that the rifle was designed for. 5.56 has been proven to exceed the max pressured .223s are designed for when fired in a .223. Therefore, I would not fire it in a true .223 chamber, just like I would not fire any other cartridge of any caliber that exceeds the listed max safe pressures that the ammunition and firearms were designed around. There are a number of rifles designed for the .223 cartridge, like the Savage 25, this little CZ we are talking about (which was actually designed for the 5.56 and marked .223), and others that may not have the extra margin of safety that a Winchester 70 chambered in .223 but designed for larger cartridges would. We don't know the weak spots in any of these rifles.

I would not fire any overpressure round in any rifle of any caliber. I don't need proof of one blowing up in order to avoid it. I might otherwise be the first to provide such proof.

In a true .223 chamber. a 5.56 is an overpressure round.

What you do is your business. Just don't post advice that could be dangerous if people follow it.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:06 pm

CEMENTHEAD wrote:James Calhoon does a modified bolt handle (exchange)and lower scope mounts if anybody is interested.

Here's the link:

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/pricelist.php

Good stuff in my opinion.

Have fun, Tom

That is a worthwhile modification for sure. A lower scope gives a much better cheek weld. Otherwise, I would be wanting to strap a cheek pad to it.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:11 pm

madman4570 wrote: Guess I better tell all the boys at the rifle club stop using their Lake City cases shooting 1000's of reloads in Win. M70's, Rem M700's, Ruger M77's on and on. Cause they been shooting them just dandy for decades.

I'm not stepping into the middle of this 223 vs 5.56 debate as I don't know myself ---- but if the folks at the gun club are using recycled brass, wouldn't the fireformed case be correct for the rifle then, and if someone is using a re-sizing die, will it size a used LC case to .223 dimensions?

Curious as I've been down-sizing my hunting stuff and buying more target oriented stuff --------- one of the items on my "to get" list is a quality .223 target rifle and I wanted to take advantage of the buckets and buckets of 5.56 brass I have from my prior AR fixation

Also -- saw a Colt Match H-Bar marked .223 , (I forgot whether it was on the barrel , or lower receiver , honestly) - are they really .223's ? (one of these in A2 configuration is also on my "must get" someday list )

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:41 pm

Streetstar wrote: I'm not stepping into the middle of this 223 vs 5.56 debate as I don't know myself ---- but if the folks at the gun club are using recycled brass, wouldn't the fireformed case be correct for the rifle then, and if someone is using a re-sizing die, will it size a used LC case to .223 dimensions?

Curious as I've been down-sizing my hunting stuff and buying more target oriented stuff --------- one of the items on my "to get" list is a quality .223 target rifle and I wanted to take advantage of the buckets and buckets of 5.56 brass I have from my prior AR fixation

Also -- saw a Colt Match H-Bar marked .223 , (I forgot whether it was on the barrel , or lower receiver , honestly) - are they really .223's ? (one of these in A2 configuration is also on my "must get" someday list )

As far as I understand, 5.56 brass should be fine. The guys who make it say that it is important for 5.56 or .223 brass to be sized correctly. I guess it is not as forgiving as some calibers. Others know better than I do, and some of the ammo and component manufacturers are really good about giving you the information you need, so I would check with them.

The issue is that the throat is different, and in the .223 chamber, the same load builds higher pressures.

Most ARs are chambered in 5.56, even if they are marked .223. Some are chambered in .223 Wylde. Some matsh rifles are chambered in .223 and some specialty barrel manufacturers offer .223 chamberings in their match barrels. Still, most are going to have 5.56 barrels, no matter what is marked on the receiver. I would guess that the majority of .223-marked rifles actually have 5.56 chambers, hence the number of people who say, "I always shoot 5.56 in my .223, and it never hurt anything."

If the barrel is not marked, or if it is marked .223, I always recommend contacting the manufacturer to ask what the chamber actually is. I think a lot of bolt rifles actually have .223 chambers because when I spoke once with Black Hills about one of their loads, they told me they were not offering the 5.56 version on the civilian market at that time because a lot of bolt rifles had tight .223 chambers and it could be dangerous in some of those chambers. The 5.56 version was about 150 fps faster, if I remember right.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:26 pm

Doug,

tbe match 6601 colt hbars have .223 on receiver but barrel is marked 5.56 nato
i have two of them.

the reloading if you are following .223 loading specs cool.

the guys at club run theirs to 5.56 cause they use most in their ar,s

7.62 you kinda boun e all over the place bro. You said if its marked .223 no good. Then you copied my words check with mfg. Next its well maybe if they say yes or barrel is marked.

dude, think i am going to call you the bounce man.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:41 pm

Streetstar wrote: one of the items on my "to get" list is a quality .223 target rifle and I wanted to take advantage of the buckets and buckets of 5.56 brass I have from my prior AR fixation

So why not an AR for a target rifle, since they are so easy to accurize? Not criticizing, just curious - I like both. It is a pain that bolt rifles tend toward slower twist rates, and I prefer heavy bullets.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:45 pm

madman4570 wrote:7.62 you kinda boun e all over the place bro. You said if its marked .223 no good. Then you copied my words check with mfg. Next its well maybe if they say yes or barrel is marked.
dude, think i am going to call you the bounce man.

Maybe you should actually read what I wrote before you call me anything. Or if you did, work on reading comprehension; it is as important grammar and punctuation.

Mainehunter · Post by **Mainehunter** » Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:09 am

I came across one a few months ago 7.62x39 with a nice Turkish stock on it. I wanted to convert it either 300 Whisper or 35 Russian but by the time I made up my mind it was snatched up a week later

.

Mainehunter