What's wrong w/ a .357?

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here ... politely.

Moderators: Hobie, AmBraCol

Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
User avatar
kmittleman
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:32 pm
Location: Ellicott City, MD
Contact:

What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by kmittleman »

Hi Guys,


I was just on another forum going back and forth about the whole .357 carbine for deer thing. Some people are so against it and think shooting a deer with a .357 is totally unethical. I personally am working up a load for my .357 trapper and think it should be fine for deer. Of the deer that I've killed, all of them have been under 100yds so I don't see the problem. Why do people get so nasty about this issue?


-Kevin
"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he doesn't exist." - C.S. Lewis
User avatar
Old Ironsights
Posting leader...
Posts: 15084
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:27 am
Location: Waiting for the Collapse
Contact:

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by Old Ironsights »

Because they are willfully blind idiots who can't read a Ballistics table?

Show them the External Ballistics table from the Buffalo Bore 180GC but don't tell them the caliber.

See what they say.

I love how the .357 (or 30-30) is inadequate fro deer from a rifle, but a Monster Killer from a TC... :roll:
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough.
מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976
Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
User avatar
jeepnik
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6077
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:39 pm
Location: On the Beach

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by jeepnik »

Dad taught me to respect the animal, and make it's taking as painless as possible. For the type of hunting I've done, it's just too light to hold enough energy to do a good job at the ranges expected.
Jeepnik AKA "Old Eyes"
"Go low, go slow and preferably in the dark" The old Sarge (he was maybe 24.
"Freedom is never more that a generation from extinction" Ronald Reagan
"Every man should have at least one good rifle and know how to use it" Dad
User avatar
Old Ironsights
Posting leader...
Posts: 15084
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:27 am
Location: Waiting for the Collapse
Contact:

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by Old Ironsights »

jeepnik wrote:Dad taught me to respect the animal, and make it's taking as painless as possible. For the type of hunting I've done, it's just too light to hold enough energy to do a good job at the ranges expected.
You have seen my 110yd "hamburger deer quarter" haven't you?

I prefer keeping the .357 under 100, but still...
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough.
מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976
Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
tman
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3243
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:43 pm

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by tman »

You will find True hunters on this forum as opposed to internet commandos. 357 handguns have killed elephants. Extreme example. Good shots can kill North American game at short range. Shot placement, bullet consideration, and range limitation. Under 100 yards, 180grain hardcast will drop anything in your firearm if u know to shoot, which, always trumps the "Experts minimum caliber restrictions" :lol:
Pisgah
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1629
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:01 pm
Location: SC

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by Pisgah »

Ignore people who say it is inadequate. Use a sensible load, at sensible ranges, and make sure you can place your shots. Any deer within 100 yards will be in serious difficulty. Plenty of folks are ignorant of the fact that with the right loads the .357 from a rifle comes astoundingly close to the .35 Remington -- which the same folks who poo-poo the .357 will agree is adequate for deer.
User avatar
FWiedner
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 8853
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:50 pm
Location: North Texas

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by FWiedner »

There is an odd concern that a game animal should be dead before it's on the ground.

The result is a popular opinion that 'ethical' hunters should use ultra super-magnums and atomic weapons so that the animal doesn't 'suffer,' regardless of any other mitigation.

In my view there is a simple naivete, even among hunters, with regard to the way that death occurs, even when caused by a gunshot wound in the course of a hunt.

:|
Government office attracts the power-mad, yet it's people who just want to be left alone to live life on their own terms who are considered dangerous.

History teaches that it's a small window in which people can fight back before it is too dangerous to fight back.
L_Kilkenny
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1204
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:00 pm
Location: Iowa
Contact:

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by L_Kilkenny »

.357's from handguns have proven to be effective deer killers out to 50 yards give or take, maybe further. I've used them myself and 180gr XTP's have surprising penetration and show substantial tissue disruption. I can only imagine what a good 180gr hardcast will penetrate. Now a carbine doesn't drop down to 50 yard handgun ballistics until the neighborhood of 150 yards yet a carbine isn't good enough?

LK
Marlin32
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 718
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:27 pm

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by Marlin32 »

The ballistic geniuses here have Outlawed its use as it doesn't have required energy at 100 yards. IN A RIFLE. but in a HANDGUN, it is perfectly legal. Go figure that out. Or at least you would have to prove that it had enough energy if that situation arose.

I used to shoot deer with it, out of a Marlin and used 180grain Federals. Killed deer like nobody's business, but shots were in thick timber and in close. Which matched the gun, the caliber, the bullet to the game and to the situation.
User avatar
Blaine
Posting leader...
Posts: 28968
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:22 pm
Location: Still Deciding

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by Blaine »

Marlin32 wrote:The ballistic geniuses here have Outlawed its use as it doesn't have required energy at 100 yards. IN A RIFLE. but in a HANDGUN, it is perfectly legal. Go figure that out. Or at least you would have to prove that it had enough energy if that situation arose.

I used to shoot deer with it, out of a Marlin and used 180grain Federals. Killed deer like nobody's business, but shots were in thick timber and in close. Which matched the gun, the caliber, the bullet to the game and to the situation.
Using my Scientific Seattle Phone Book Test (Pat.Pend), I found Federal hard cast 180s to be scarey "hard hitting".. whatever that means. I only have a couple .357 handguns, but at 30 or 40 yards (the range I would prolly trust myself) I can't imagine anything I shot surviving if I hit where I was aiming.
Studies Have Shown That Chubby People Live Far Longer Than Those That Make Fun Of Them :twisted:
shawn_c992001
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 709
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:25 pm
Location: Arnett WV
Contact:

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by shawn_c992001 »

White-tails around here hate them! Thick timber, overgrown clear cuts, pine and laurel thickets, short-barrel Winchester Trapper guns just made for packin', and still hunting, fast to the shoulder, what more could you ask for?
SASS#43836
Ain't easy havin' pals.
User avatar
gundownunder
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1449
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:02 pm
Location: Perth. Western Australia

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by gundownunder »

Why does this question keep coming up on this and half a dozen other forums every couple of months for years on end?

The answers are not going to change.

The 357 factory ammo has more velocity and energy than all the old recognized "deer rifles" that preceded the 30-30, and even comes close to the old 30-30 factory loads.

The 357 is not a long range sniper rifle, but I use mine to shoot 200 yd steel silhouette rams with a 180gr cast bullet and it works.

I have not shot any game with my 357 but a 158gr Winchester factory load or 158gr XTP handload turns a 5 gallon oil tin full of water into scrap metal in spectacular fashion, like going in one side, blowing the screw cap off, and blowing a fist sized hole out the other side. That is a 50 pound can, how much does a deer weigh?

There used to be a professional shooter here in Oz who used to use a 357 carbine to head shoot feral camels, and they can top 1000 pound on the hoof.

Really, it's not rocket science (or is it :lol: ), find a bullet that expands well but still penetrates then work out how far you can shoot accurately. If you doubt the penetration ability go for the head shot, you'll find your animal DRT with most of its skull missing. As a hunting rifle the 357 may not be perfect, but as a meat getter that is, handy, economical, and FUN TO SHOOT, you ain't gonna' get anything better.

Oh, Yeh, and the short answer
What's wrong w/ a .357?
nothing at all.
Bob
***********************************
You have got to love democracy-
It lets you choose who your dictator is going to be.
***********************************
User avatar
horsesoldier03
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:32 pm
Location: Kansas

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by horsesoldier03 »

There is nothing wrong with a .357, I hope to find the funds for a .357 carbine for my oldest daughters deer rifle/general purpose rifle in the near future. Carbines in pistol calibers are as AMERICAN as they come, and are good for most game out to 150 yrds. I honestly think some individuals never get past their keyboard or only shoot paper targets and then try to tell you what a gun or calibers limitations are.
“Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.”
piller
Posting leader...
Posts: 13190
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:49 pm
Location: South of Dallas

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by piller »

If you keep it in reasonable distance, it has never been proven to be a bad caliber. Do you really need an eargaschplittinloudenboomer for deer?
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
Mescalero
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6180
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:21 pm

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by Mescalero »

No,
I have shot them .22 magnum,
fed a crew of wetbacks for a number of years.
User avatar
1894c
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3442
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:48 pm
Location: possibly earth...

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by 1894c »

i specifically hunt deer with the .357Mag...it works...i don't feel under-gunned...limit my shots to 100+ yds... :)
User avatar
El Chivo
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3597
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:12 pm
Location: An American in California

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by El Chivo »

the other problem I have is it's just too accurate. I kept hitting the swingers at 100 yards offhand while the guys next to me were kicking up dust at 50. I switched to 50 yards but aimed for the chicken's heads to make them spin. It's not nice to embarass others, better bring your 467 Win Ultra Mag Improved for those 40 yard shots from the tree stand.
"I'll tell you what living is. You get up when you feel like it. You fry yourself some eggs. You see what kind of a day it is."
chadbr
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 296
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by chadbr »

El Chivo wrote:the other problem I have is it's just too accurate. I kept hitting the swingers at 100 yards offhand while the guys next to me were kicking up dust at 50. I switched to 50 yards but aimed for the chicken's heads to make them spin. It's not nice to embarass others, better bring your 467 Win Ultra Mag Improved for those 40 yard shots from the tree stand.

:D :D :D :D
User avatar
Old Ironsights
Posting leader...
Posts: 15084
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:27 am
Location: Waiting for the Collapse
Contact:

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by Old Ironsights »

piller wrote:If you keep it in reasonable distance, it has never been proven to be a bad caliber. Do you really need an eargaschplittinloudenboomer for deer?
Yes.

I need der eargeschplittenloudenboomer mit ein grosse holenground und alles kaput gewher.

We used to call them "Davey Crockets"... :twisted:
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough.
מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976
Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
COSteve
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3447
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:03 pm

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by COSteve »

A lot of this hysteria is generated by the gun manufacturers and gun writers because, lets face it, they want to sell more guns. Take the 7mm mag and 338 Lapua Magnum craze out here in the west. Everyone is telling people, 'ya need that big of a gun to shoot a 250lb deer'. That's total horse pucky! A 30-06 with a 150grn bullet is way more than you need to kill deer and a 180grn bullet is way more than you need to kill elk or moose ..... if you can hit your target.

However, most of the hunters already have a 30-06 sitting in the closet so how are the gun manufacturers going to keep selling guns? Simple, they come out with new calibers and tell everyone the old ones just won't work anymore. Remember the 300 Magnum? How about the Short Magnum craze a few years back?

Truth is that back in the day when hunters actually hunted and stalked their prey up to a reasonable distance, guys were using 25-20 for the smaller eastern deer and doing just fine, thank you. Now the fools want to step out of their Escalades, set up their shooting chair and support being careful not to scuff their new boots or get their fancy hunting outfit dirty, get out their range finders to set the range to target exactly, dial in their 32X50 scopes, and take a 300-400 yd shot.

Then have their personal guides go get the animal, field dress it, and carry it out for them so they don't get dirty. When they miss, they blame it on the rifle and go out to buy an even more expensive caliber. Do you know how expensive these new calibers are? Heck, I saw some 338 Lapua Magnum ammo on sale for $83 for 20 rds. That's $4.15 per round!!!!!
User avatar
Old Ironsights
Posting leader...
Posts: 15084
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:27 am
Location: Waiting for the Collapse
Contact:

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by Old Ironsights »

COSteve wrote:...Do you know how expensive these new calibers are? Heck, I saw some 338 Lapua Magnum ammo on sale for $83 for 20 rds. That's $4.15 per round!!!!!
.50 BMG is cheaper than that.

And shoots farther/harder too... :twisted:
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough.
מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976
Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
madman4570
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6747
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:30 am
Location: Lower Central NYS

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by madman4570 »

Old Ironsights wrote:
COSteve wrote:...Do you know how expensive these new calibers are? Heck, I saw some 338 Lapua Magnum ammo on sale for $83 for 20 rds. That's $4.15 per round!!!!!
.50 BMG is cheaper than that.

And shoots farther/harder too... :twisted:

:lol:
That's cheap boys!
My one shooter shoots big things that cost????????--------------------(comes to just under $200 per 20 rounds) :lol: :roll: :shock:
Yep-----Wife bought last year me a box for our Anniversary-----------Weatherby Ultra .416 (350gr TSX)
I SHOT EM UP TOO :lol: :roll: ---Screw it!

Hey, when I think if a gun that just most of us really need for most things-----
Maybe that darn little .357 in a nice lever might be about the best thing going for cost verses need.

It will do for---hunting deer/heck black bear with those stout 180gr BB loads/great for fun plinking on the cheap/fine for HD if needed.

I mean heck not even reloading can get 400rds of Magtech 158gr JSP new ammo for $200
And if you reload and buy some Barry's Bullets and having own brass(cheap/cheap)

Lets see 400rds for $200 or 20rds for $200 :idea:

Since we weren't in Africa hunting Big Bad stuff,next time I have the boys over to shoot my guns at(targets)think the .416 will stay home.(however was kinda worth watching a couple of the wimpier ones shoot it) :wink: not $200 worth though.
Last edited by madman4570 on Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Old Ironsights
Posting leader...
Posts: 15084
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:27 am
Location: Waiting for the Collapse
Contact:

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by Old Ironsights »

madman4570 wrote:...Lets see 400rds for $200 or 20rds for $200 :idea: ...
I like the idea of 440rds for <$90... but the only thing it will fit in as a Mosin, a Russian Black Rifle or an Unobtanium W95... :cry:
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough.
מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976
Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
Charles
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2004
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:29 pm
Location: Deep South Texas

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by Charles »

The 357 Magnum round fired out of a rifle is fully equal in killing power to the 30-30 round.
FatJackDurham
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1067
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:18 am
Location: Morrisville,vt

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by FatJackDurham »

Yeah, I hunt with a .357 using rubber bullets. It's just as exciting, and not nearly as messy. Scares the stuff outta the deer.

Just kidding.

But, you know..... now that i think of it.....
User avatar
Griff
Posting leader...
Posts: 19463
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by Griff »

The only thing wrong with a .357 is that it ain't a .45! :P :twisted: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93

There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
User avatar
1894c
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3442
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:48 pm
Location: possibly earth...

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by 1894c »

Griff wrote:The only thing wrong with a .357 is that it ain't a .45! :P :twisted: :lol: :lol: :lol:
---OUCH---
JBledsoe
Levergunner 1.0
Posts: 86
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:34 pm
Location: Caldwell, ID

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by JBledsoe »

COSteve wrote:A lot of this hysteria is generated by the gun manufacturers and gun writers because, lets face it, they want to sell more guns. Take the 7mm mag and 338 Lapua Magnum craze out here in the west. Everyone is telling people, 'ya need that big of a gun to shoot a 250lb deer'. That's total horse pucky! A 30-06 with a 150grn bullet is way more than you need to kill deer and a 180grn bullet is way more than you need to kill elk or moose ..... if you can hit your target.

However, most of the hunters already have a 30-06 sitting in the closet so how are the gun manufacturers going to keep selling guns? Simple, they come out with new calibers and tell everyone the old ones just won't work anymore. Remember the 300 Magnum? How about the Short Magnum craze a few years back?

Truth is that back in the day when hunters actually hunted and stalked their prey up to a reasonable distance, guys were using 25-20 for the smaller eastern deer and doing just fine, thank you. Now the fools want to step out of their Escalades, set up their shooting chair and support being careful not to scuff their new boots or get their fancy hunting outfit dirty, get out their range finders to set the range to target exactly, dial in their 32X50 scopes, and take a 300-400 yd shot.

Then have their personal guides go get the animal, field dress it, and carry it out for them so they don't get dirty. When they miss, they blame it on the rifle and go out to buy an even more expensive caliber. Do you know how expensive these new calibers are? Heck, I saw some 338 Lapua Magnum ammo on sale for $83 for 20 rds. That's $4.15 per round!!!!!
Hey Steve,

You finally said something worth reading!! :lol: Good post.
stretch
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2112
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:15 pm

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by stretch »

A 357 used under 100 yards in a rifle and under 50 yards in a revolver
is good for pretty much anything in Maine. The exception MIGHT be
a quartering-towards shot on a large bull moose.

It's an excellent round for social work, too. A man with a levergun, a
revolver, and a coupla boxes of handloads in 357 could keep his homestead
defended and his freezer full for a long time.

The above scenario in 41 Magnum, 44 Magnum, or 45 Colt would yield similar
results, but 357 is cheaper.

-Stretch
jlchucker
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 542
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:44 pm

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by jlchucker »

COSteve wrote:A lot of this hysteria is generated by the gun manufacturers and gun writers because, lets face it, they want to sell more guns. Take the 7mm mag and 338 Lapua Magnum craze out here in the west. Everyone is telling people, 'ya need that big of a gun to shoot a 250lb deer'. That's total horse pucky! A 30-06 with a 150grn bullet is way more than you need to kill deer and a 180grn bullet is way more than you need to kill elk or moose ..... if you can hit your target.

However, most of the hunters already have a 30-06 sitting in the closet so how are the gun manufacturers going to keep selling guns? Simple, they come out with new calibers and tell everyone the old ones just won't work anymore. Remember the 300 Magnum? How about the Short Magnum craze a few years back?

Truth is that back in the day when hunters actually hunted and stalked their prey up to a reasonable distance, guys were using 25-20 for the smaller eastern deer and doing just fine, thank you. Now the fools want to step out of their Escalades, set up their shooting chair and support being careful not to scuff their new boots or get their fancy hunting outfit dirty, get out their range finders to set the range to target exactly, dial in their 32X50 scopes, and take a 300-400 yd shot.

Then have their personal guides go get the animal, field dress it, and carry it out for them so they don't get dirty. When they miss, they blame it on the rifle and go out to buy an even more expensive caliber. Do you know how expensive these new calibers are? Heck, I saw some 338 Lapua Magnum ammo on sale for $83 for 20 rds. That's $4.15 per round!!!!!
Excellent post! Absolutely to the point and very true! All of it.
L_Kilkenny
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1204
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:00 pm
Location: Iowa
Contact:

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by L_Kilkenny »

COSteve wrote:A lot of this hysteria is generated by the gun manufacturers and gun writers because, lets face it, they want to sell more guns. Take the 7mm mag and 338 Lapua Magnum craze out here in the west. Everyone is telling people, 'ya need that big of a gun to shoot a 250lb deer'. That's total horse pucky! A 30-06 with a 150grn bullet is way more than you need to kill deer and a 180grn bullet is way more than you need to kill elk or moose ..... if you can hit your target.

However, most of the hunters already have a 30-06 sitting in the closet so how are the gun manufacturers going to keep selling guns? Simple, they come out with new calibers and tell everyone the old ones just won't work anymore. Remember the 300 Magnum? How about the Short Magnum craze a few years back?

Truth is that back in the day when hunters actually hunted and stalked their prey up to a reasonable distance, guys were using 25-20 for the smaller eastern deer and doing just fine, thank you. Now the fools want to step out of their Escalades, set up their shooting chair and support being careful not to scuff their new boots or get their fancy hunting outfit dirty, get out their range finders to set the range to target exactly, dial in their 32X50 scopes, and take a 300-400 yd shot.

Then have their personal guides go get the animal, field dress it, and carry it out for them so they don't get dirty. When they miss, they blame it on the rifle and go out to buy an even more expensive caliber. Do you know how expensive these new calibers are? Heck, I saw some 338 Lapua Magnum ammo on sale for $83 for 20 rds. That's $4.15 per round!!!!!
Why is it that when ever a thread like this comes up that someone has to indicate that if you want/need a gun capable of taking game over 100 yards you aren't a real hunter? Big flippin jump from .357 carbines to magnums with massive scopes. No room for anything in between?

LK
User avatar
Old Savage
Posting leader...
Posts: 14368
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:43 pm
Location: Southern California

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by Old Savage »

It is the standard opinion/anti opinion in which the anti opinion is mostly fabrication in the mind of the opinioners. Don't think I ever heard anyone say a .30-06 won't work. But, the use of the 357 and even the 30-30 depend on situation and things like the 270 are useful where the other two just aren't but the reverse is not true. It is kind of how people take things and that is always at some variation. There was a trip to Texas here a couple of years ago where at least one of the 357 aficianados was confabulated over the 200 yd opportunities, apparently never realizing before hand what that was going to look like and where a 357 would fall into that scheme of things.
Last edited by Old Savage on Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
In the High Desert of Southern Calif. ..."on the cutting edge of going back in time"...

Image
COSteve
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3447
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:03 pm

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by COSteve »

L_Kilkenny wrote:
COSteve wrote:A lot of this hysteria is generated by the gun manufacturers and gun writers because, lets face it, they want to sell more guns. Take the 7mm mag and 338 Lapua Magnum craze out here in the west. Everyone is telling people, 'ya need that big of a gun to shoot a 250lb deer'. That's total horse pucky! A 30-06 with a 150grn bullet is way more than you need to kill deer and a 180grn bullet is way more than you need to kill elk or moose ..... if you can hit your target.

However, most of the hunters already have a 30-06 sitting in the closet so how are the gun manufacturers going to keep selling guns? Simple, they come out with new calibers and tell everyone the old ones just won't work anymore. Remember the 300 Magnum? How about the Short Magnum craze a few years back?

Truth is that back in the day when hunters actually hunted and stalked their prey up to a reasonable distance, guys were using 25-20 for the smaller eastern deer and doing just fine, thank you. Now the fools want to step out of their Escalades, set up their shooting chair and support being careful not to scuff their new boots or get their fancy hunting outfit dirty, get out their range finders to set the range to target exactly, dial in their 32X50 scopes, and take a 300-400 yd shot.

Then have their personal guides go get the animal, field dress it, and carry it out for them so they don't get dirty. When they miss, they blame it on the rifle and go out to buy an even more expensive caliber. Do you know how expensive these new calibers are? Heck, I saw some 338 Lapua Magnum ammo on sale for $83 for 20 rds. That's $4.15 per round!!!!!
Why is it that when ever a thread like this comes up that someone has to indicate that if you want/need a gun capable of taking game over 100 yards you aren't a real hunter? Big flippin jump from .357 carbines to magnums with massive scopes. No room for anything in between?

LK
Certainly there is, however, you miss the point of the example. To elucidate it more clearly for ya, there are many older calibers that still will perform just fine that the gun writers and manufacturers spend time and money trying to convince us are obsolete. Why? Because they need to keep pushing the flavor of the month new caliber to keep selling new guns, scope, and other equipment. The reference to the huge calibers, huge scopes, Escalades, rangefinders, and new boots was an exaggeration to demonstrate the point. Here on Leverguns, where most appreciate the virtues of the older, simpler firearms, I thought that the comment would be readily understood. I apologize if it offends.
User avatar
Old Savage
Posting leader...
Posts: 14368
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:43 pm
Location: Southern California

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by Old Savage »

Ah - I know I think you should understand what I thought I said. :D :D :D

Part of the problem comes in not when people say what they think but begin stating what other people think and what they mean. (Greta tried that. :D ) If for instance Layne Simpson wants the Shooting Times Westerner it is not for shooting deer at 75 yds. He again for example also lauds the 35 Remington and Marlins. So do many others like both ends of the spectrum. Wouldn't be hard to name a dozen.

Now who is it that says the old won't work and you need the newest hottest - specifically. A name?
In the High Desert of Southern Calif. ..."on the cutting edge of going back in time"...

Image
COSteve
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3447
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:03 pm

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by COSteve »

Old Savage wrote:Now who is it that says the old won't work and you need the newest hottest - specifically. A name?
No one here that I know of, but just look at growth of the magnums, short magnums, and super magnums recommended for deer in the gun rags.
L_Kilkenny
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1204
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:00 pm
Location: Iowa
Contact:

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by L_Kilkenny »

COSteve wrote:Certainly there is, however, you miss the point of the example. To elucidate it more clearly for ya, there are many older calibers that still will perform just fine that the gun writers and manufacturers spend time and money trying to convince us are obsolete. Why? Because they need to keep pushing the flavor of the month new caliber to keep selling new guns, scope, and other equipment. The reference to the huge calibers, huge scopes, Escalades, rangefinders, and new boots was an exaggeration to demonstrate the point. Here on Leverguns, where most appreciate the virtues of the older, simpler firearms, I thought that the comment would be readily understood. I apologize if it offends.
I get your drift and agree with a lot of your post. While I don't think that gun rags/manufactures make wholesale efforts to bash older, less powerful cartridges you thoughts that they push bigger and better to sell more guns and ammo is spot on. But let's face it, if we American buyers didn't have a serious case of bigger is better all ready built into our brains they wouldn't be able to use such arguements.

My main issue was with this statement "Truth is that back in the day when hunters actually hunted" and I will fully admit to being a little thin skinned on the subject. I've grown so tired of hunters squabbling over what is real and/or ethical hunting in the gun rags, tv, internet and even local gun clubs. Long range vs. short range, shooting vs. hunting, stand hunting vs. stalking, dogs vs. no dogs, semi vs. bolt gun, etc etc. So maybe I read more into your statement than you were saying but dang (and I'm not speaking towards you on this) some of these guys just need to shut their trap.

LK
Last edited by L_Kilkenny on Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Charles
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2004
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:29 pm
Location: Deep South Texas

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by Charles »

This snobish and arrogant attitude of what is and what is not adequate for deer hunting has been around as long as I can remember and that is starting to stretch out now. I once held it and throught I had to have a 300 Weatherby to hunt Texas deer. That nonsense ended the first time I shot a deer with it.

I have killed deer with 357 Magnum rifle, 25-20 rifle, 25-35, 25 Rem., 243 Win. 270 Win., 257 Roberts, 30-30, 30-40, 30-06, .308 and said 300 Weatherby. Every deer shot was killed graveyard dead. I never lost a single animal.

There were some times I chose to limit the type of hunting and range due to caliber and once or twice just used what I had, with the 25-20 being a case in point.

Long before there were commercialy available 357 Mag. rifles, I send a ratty of Winchester 92 (25-20) that came out of Mexico to Ward Koozer in Arizona for conversion. It proved just the ticket for jumping Javelina and deer in the thick South Texas brush. I used the old Thompson GC bullet over a healthy dose of 2400. I had the rifle for several years before swapping it for something I wanted more, but disremember what. When I went to the Texas Hill Country for deer, or Texas Big Bend country for Mule deer and Antelope I went with a scope sighted rifle for the longer ranges involved.

My choices were never about what it took to kill em, it was always about my ability to hit em. I chose the rifle that would give me the best ability to put the bullet just where I wanted it, under the circumstances and conditions.
User avatar
mikld
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2336
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:46 pm
Location: So. Orygun!

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by mikld »

I've found that in most outdoor sports, especially hunting and fishing there are some folks that just have to be an expert. Something in them needs the affirmation or adoration of their peers to feel complete. For example; their opinion is unrefuitable, there is no grey area, they is absolutely right, and willing to fight to the death to defend his opinion, whether facts, science, hard experience says they're wrong. You see a lot of it on the web on hunting/fishing forums. "The 30-30 is inadequate for deer" (even though deer are taken every year with the old "thutty") is a popular topic amoung these experts and the "357 Magnum Deer Rifle" pops up too. I'm not an experienced hunter so my opinion ain't worth listening to, so I look to the facts (I've seen hundreds of modern photos of deer slain with the 30-30 and many with the 357. I've heard many, many examples of 30-30 and 357 preformance on animals, and general hunting "ballistics" from trusted individuals (and my own ressearch) that I won't have any regrets when I go afield with my 30-30 or .44 Mag. levergun (Oh! I hope the .44 is big enough for Oregon blacktails? :shock: ).
Last edited by mikld on Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mike
Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit...
I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...
gak
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1745
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:35 pm
Location: Sunny Aridzona

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by gak »

A good example of what some here are saying is, a few years back a friend decided he just had to have a .300 RUM when it first came out - because of what the latest internet and gun rag scuttlebutt was (he wouldn't outright admit, but we just know... :)) and "I'm thinking I might put in for elk next year." He also already had a .30-06, .30-30, etc., the traditional deer (and many elk) hunter's array. It was most apparent he just wanted a new toy. Fine, we can all relate to that, but the bs that he enjoyed spouting about how the RUM was "needed" and how much better it was than other typical deer-through-elk rounds had you (him) believing not only the '06, 7mm Mag (that he'd had) and my .270, but the likes of .300 WM and .35 Whelen were .22LRs! We mostly had fun with the back 'n forth banter, but had to take a time out or two when it got a little thick!

Years later, mostly 'cause of the magical RUM's sturm-und-drang, he was back to carrying the '06 as his main gun! On one hunt he stirred up a big mulie buck so close (and startling) that he couldn't bring his ultraboomen big bolt and megazoomen 3x9 to bear quickly enough. I was fairly close by when I heard this stir. We quickly met up and he described this scene, wishing I had been even closer by to quickly toss him my .30-30! (Now there's good hunter safety practice!) While this was primarily a frustration of not having open/iron sights (for this particular setting: close-in heavy brush - pinion/juniper scrub) like I did, it had him wishing he too had brought along his Win carbine. We'd taken a noon break back at the truck and, knowing the fresh country we were heading into for the PM, I'd swapped my .270 out for the .30-30, which for the conditions could very easily have also been my .357 92.

I've hunted with all of the above, except the mags (borrowed a friend's 7mm Mag once) but am not averse to grabbing my 92 if *knowing* I'm heading into a 95% "close in" hunting situation--heavy brush/timber, narrow canyon, etc--but have to acknowledge in doing so I may have to pass-up a much longer shot if things open up into the 125/150+ range. Many hunting conditions, as one poster suggested, end up quickly being in that intermediate 150-250 territory, that you might not fully expect...so my first thought almost always runs to the .30-30 to span or bracket the possibilities in an otherwise close-in setting. Still, the little 92--even lighter by some few oz's than the .30-30 and feeling even handier yet--goes along when I head out to stir things up in the brush on a "too quiet" hot afternoon and the deer are in hunkered down, full-time siesta mode under the low hanging trees and bushes. Because I have the other longer-range choices, that's the role my lil' .357 (and .44 Mag) plays these days out in the field.

The .357 is a great do-all "within it's range and capabilities" (yeah, I know, what isn't?!) as has been well chronicled here. I'd also not feel undergunned if cast out into the proverbial wilderness, Moses like, but under the ever-popular internet "one gun only" fantasy (?) rules, allowed "only" a .357 carbine or rifle as that one firearm. Maybe we should all be so lucky in such circumstances, versus drawing the .22 ticket! Just hope the "unknown" wilderness isn't Kodiak Island (regardless of cartridge), I understand them thar critters swat .357s away like flies!

Everyone's had some good perspectives here, IMO, just depends on what the circumstances are.
User avatar
Buck Elliott
Member Emeritus
Posts: 2827
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:15 pm
Location: Halfway up Sheep Mountain -- Cody, Wyoming

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by Buck Elliott »

"The only thing wrong with a .357 is that it ain't a .45.!!!"

Dang Griff already typed the words right out from under my fingers...!

Within its limitations, the pistol-cartridge carbine is still as effective as it ever was, whatever its caliber.. For reasonsof my own, I still feel more confident with a .44 Mag or .45 Colt, but will never deny that I have killed many many critters, large and small, with the little .35, and its ancestors, the .32-20 and, to lesser extent, the .25-20. When necessary, I have used the various .22 rimfires to the same end...

In my own experience, I find the .45 Colt to be the most accurate of the bunch.. Maybe it was luck, maybe it's the result of more experimentation or familiarity with the big cartridge, but I also worked a long time with the .357, way back when... My most accurate loads with the old .45 are with 250 gr. cast bullets, whereas the most accurate .357 carbine loads were made with 125 gr. JHPs..

YMMV...
Regards

Buck

Life has a way of making the foreseeable that which never happens, and the unforeseeable, that which your life becomes...
User avatar
Streetstar
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3597
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:58 am
Location: from what used to be Moore OK

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by Streetstar »

It'll work --- 1 16" barrel gets a lot better ballistics than a 4" barrel revolver, and you can load the heavier 180 grain pills for more downrange energy.
I used a .44 Magnum carbine last year for one weekend, -- i didn't get a shot off, but i was pretty darn happy with the way it shot on paper out to 150 yards , The hot 357 loads look close enough in velocity and the bullet weights are certainly heavy enough. I used it because i was tree stand hunting and the places i thought i would see deer were no more than 100 yards away -- the rifle was light and handy


Since the thread mentioned the Loudenboomers, I have a .300 Weatherby, it was my first "big boy rifle" ---- i don't feel the need for a 30-06, but i routinely use reduced power loads that effectively bring the performance down to 30-06 levels. Without a muzzle brake, the recoil is just too much for an occasional shooter with full power ammo. Someone mentioned the 300 RUM -- i can remember wanting one of those when it came out because it out-performed the Weatherby by maybe 50-100fps, then the Lazzeroni Warbird trumped them all, and Weatherby came out with the 30-378. I briefly got caught up in the hysteria but had to remind myself how much my plain 'ol .300 WBY hurts to shoot

I have been asked why i dont just buy an '06 then ? -- its easy, that would be another _$$$-on up to$$$$$______ (fill in the blank for what a nice rifle/scope costs) . I already have the Weatherby, i like the rifle, and i have tons of brass --- as long as my "squib" loads are giving me decent accuracy and not key-holing, i am happy
--- plus, if i ever get a draw for a dream elk/sheep/muley hunt, or a chance to go after plains game in Africa -- i am ready to go with the same rifle - just use factory spec loads and re-zero it.
----- Doug
adirondakjack
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1925
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:09 pm
Location: Upstate NY
Contact:

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by adirondakjack »

In days of old, a .32-20 would do, if that's what ya had. A .357 is "big n bad" out of a 4 inch revolver (saved many state troopers' lives over the last 75 years or so), and out of a rifle, is every bit as good at 100 yards as it is against a linebacker at contact range from a revolver. I have seen deer shot through and through with a 12GA slug at 15 FEET run and take all day to find. I have seen a deer drop in it's tracks when hit by a .45 Caliber round ball at TWO HUNDRED YARDS. Do yer job, a .357 is all good at reasonable iron sight distances, period.
Certified gun nut
User avatar
hightime
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 997
Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 9:22 am
Location: Duluth, MN

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by hightime »

I get it. Those who think, according to them, a quick kill cartridge is ethical. And we should all use one.
The thing is, Sticking a deer with an arrow is far less of a quick kill than a 357 normally.

When we hunt we have choices. Take the shot, wait or even let the deer walk away. I know many years ago, I used to take a lot more shots. In those time I used a 30-06 and heavy lead. If that's the way you want to hunt , use the right gun. If you're a thinking hunter, you can be effective with a much lighter cartridge.

Owen
User avatar
Griff
Posting leader...
Posts: 19463
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by Griff »

Buck Elliott wrote:"The only thing wrong with a .357 is that it ain't a .45.!!!"
Dang Griff already typed the words right out from under my fingers...!
YMMV...
Great minds think alike.

As to the notion that gunwriters or even manufacturers woul denigrate older, classic cartridges, I think that is more a matter of perception than one of actual statement.

For one, just using the .30-30 as an example, both Matlin & Winchester make and/or market a rifle in that caliber. What would be their purpose in making such a claim? Further reduce their sales? No. That such classic cartridges suffer by comparison to newer uber magnums is to deny reality. Yes, the manufacturer of said new uber magnum wants you to buy one. Hence the scrube is offered the chance to shoot/hunt with it. Comparisons are the stuffing of such fare. Unfortunately comparisons to the nearly as venerable .30-06 are not as dramatic as the oft picked .30-30.

Face reality, publishers earn their profits thru advertisiing. Writers earn their keep for published articles. Manufacturers thru sales of theur product. Their vehicle to get the word out is the shooting related magazine. Ads are nice, but rarely give any meat & potatoes as to why I, the consumer, should choose their loudenboomer over another loudenboomer. Enter the 300-350 word article extolling loudenboomer A.

Now, lets say there are 3 million hunters in the US. Fully half of those currently or at one time owned a .30-30 and possibly hunted with it. Just how many are going to pick up a copy those 1.5 million readers are going to pick a copy of Hunting USA to read about something they already have 1st hand knowledge or experience with? Conversely how many are going to pick up a copy with an article about deer hunting with the brand-new, unreleased, only rumored Loudenboomer A? Me? I'd just be guessing, but I'd be willing to bet it's a larger percentage of 3 million than it will be of the 1.5! That probably translates into an increased circulation for Hunting USA. Which in turn means the publisher can vharge more for his advertising... Loudenboomer A's manufacturer saw a huge number of sales and their arket research will probably trace some number of those as attributible to said article! Ergo, there is no sinsiter plot to denigrate or belittle your favorite levergun or levergun cartridge. Put simply, you weren't here to read about. I do remember at least one article about the Winchester 94 in .44 Mag, raving about it's capabilities in the bear woods... And that was some 43 or 44 years ago! Then again... I could be wrong. :P :twisted:

So, what that really means... is that articles raving about the virtues of the antiquated arms and cartridges we like, are a hundred years or more in the PAST! If you wish to read them again... fire up the word processor and write 'em yourself!

Back to your regularly scheduled masochistic rantings.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93

There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
User avatar
Old Savage
Posting leader...
Posts: 14368
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:43 pm
Location: Southern California

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by Old Savage »

Oh now Griff, there you go again talking sense. What are we to do with you??? :)

But then a again in recent years we have had the 260 Remington and the 6.8 Remington and low recoil ammo and .... what are these then nonloudenboomers? I think I read about them and of course we had the reissue of the 25-35 and what else that I have also read about by Mr 7mm Shooting Times Westerner. Gun writers have written about Everything new that has come out including the 327 Federal etc. I am sure I missed some and if the 30-30 had just come out they would write about that too as they did the 7-30 Waters. I want a 30-30 reamed out to the 7-30 Waters case but in 30 cal. Then I can run around a shoot everything with that and proclaim how great it is taking whatever tack is available to sell my stuff to whoever. Let's see has anybody rebarreled a 30-40 to 25 cal.? Or where is the 25-308? Raining - no golf today.
In the High Desert of Southern Calif. ..."on the cutting edge of going back in time"...

Image
User avatar
El Chivo
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3597
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:12 pm
Location: An American in California

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by El Chivo »

to respond to the part about Weatherby's and other such guns, I think most people have more money than time and purchase a maximum setup for when they finally make it out to hunt. Also there is a strange interest in overkill which I experience every time I go to the range. Somebody has a 50 cal, or elephant gun, or 450 Marlin revolver, and they always stand right next to me. Big bang, lotta dust. That's ok, they run out of ammo quick.
"I'll tell you what living is. You get up when you feel like it. You fry yourself some eggs. You see what kind of a day it is."
User avatar
Griff
Posting leader...
Posts: 19463
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by Griff »

El Chivo wrote:to respond to the part about Weatherby's and other such guns, I think SOME people have more money than time and purchase a maximum setup for when they finally make it out to hunt. Also there is a strange interest in overkill which I experience every time I go to the range. Somebody has a 50 cal, or elephant gun, or 450 Marlin revolver, and they always stand right next to me. Big bang, lotta dust. That's ok, they run out of ammo quick.
There, fixed that for ya! :P
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93

There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
JohndeFresno
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4559
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:52 pm

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by JohndeFresno »

gundownunder wrote: ...The 357 factory ammo has more velocity and energy than all the old recognized "deer rifles" that preceded the 30-30, and even comes close to the old 30-30 factory loads...

Really, it's not rocket science...find a bullet that expands well but still penetrates then work out how far you can shoot accurately....
That makes sense to me!
COSteve
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3447
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:03 pm

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by COSteve »

There is a limit to everything, however. There is a thread on The Firing Line where OP is asking for opinions on which is better, a .17HMR or .22WMR rifle for his needs. He's interested in rabbit hunting out to 200yds and larger varmints out to 125yds, "... we'll likely be shooting raccoons, coyotes and possibly small to medium sized hogs, and I know shot placement is key in these situations, however not as much when using a larger round such as the 2 WMR."

A '22WMR is considered a larger round? Seriously? And yes, I know that 40grn .22wmr is larger than 17grn .17hmr but does anyone consider the 22WMR 'large'? I've got to say that the OP's opinion of adequate performance is skewed pretty far from what I've seen as generally acceptable minimum performance. I guess he would be content with a 357mag for moose and a 308 for elephant.
JohndeFresno
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4559
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:52 pm

Re: What's wrong w/ a .357?

Post by JohndeFresno »

COSteve wrote:...357mag for moose and a 308 for elephant.
That makes sense to me!
Post Reply