Grizzlies and the 30-30

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:19 pm

I've been reading lots of stories and comments about the 30-30 and grizzlies on various internet sites.

What motivated me to start this thread was a story by a guy from Georgia who spent some time in British Columbia, Canada. He said he met several big game guides who were making camps ready for the hunting season and each had a Marlin 336, 30-30 in their saddle scabbards. He said they told him their 30-30's were adequate--now get this--because when a grizzly charges they get within about 10 feet and stand up on their hind legs and you then shoot them in the chest 2-3 times. So.....you stand your ground till they get within 10 feet and stand up and then let'em have it. Isn't that rather hard to believe? This guy said all the guides said this was true and he therefore had to believe it. (Anyone laughing or smiling at this point?)

I found that Jack Turner (told this here before) who killed a charging grizzly with his 30-30 also had a run-in with a sow grizzly with cubs. He killed her with one shot. In 2005 at age 74 Jack was going to his daughter's place to feed her dogs when he was attacked by a grizzly and lost an ear. Believe this was in the little village of Hagensborg east of Bella Coola. I've read on the internet that the Bella Coola Valley has an excess of grizzlies and lots of concern from people living in the area. One guy in this area had several Llamas and another similar type of South American animal and these animals charge what's threatening them. Didn't work with 'ole grizz who killed a bunch of'em to the tune of about 15,000 dollars worth.

Then there's stories about the natives who live in grizzly territory and seem to get by with all kinds of underpowered guns. Interesting when I think about it that I've never heard of native people up there getting killed by grizzlies. I would guess some have been killed and due to not having enough gun--just didn't make the news. I'm sure what saves most people is bears usually chosing to leave rather than confront a human.

One guy told about a couple of fellows who killed a large brown bear and it required 2 shotgun slugs and 2 bullets from a 375 H&H. Stories like this make you wonder about the use of a 30-30 on grizzlies even though they are smaller. I know if you read enough you'll find that several people had a hard time bringing down a brown or grizzly when using the more powerful cartridges, as in this case.

Ralph Edwards killed over 50 grizzlies and at one time was a guide for grizzly hunters. One time he had a detective from Los Angeles for a client and they wounded a grizzly but it was late in the evening so they decided to come back for it the next morning when the light was better. The bear had stayed in the area over night and he came out charging. Forget the exact details but think he and this detective put 4 or 5 bullets in this bears chest--you could cover all of these hits with your hand--before the bear went down. Ralph said something like it was the hardest bear to put down he'd ever seen. No doubt being hit the previous day and suffering had the bear looking for revenge. Ralph was using a model 8 Remington, 35 Remington and believe his client was using a 30-06.

I would think if you put a 30-30 170 grain bullet in the right place you're going to kill that bear about as well as if you'd put a 180 grain bullet from a 30-06 in the same place. I'm talking 50 yds or closer. But when it gets down to it I know I'd want all the power I could handle well and I'm sure most people would agree. You'd want to do as much damage as possible no matter where you hit the bear. My 1st choice would be my Browning 1886 SRC loaded with Barnes Original 400 gr bullets--and I'd be doing some serious practicing with this gun before the hunt.

Don

Whit Spurzon · Post by **Whit Spurzon** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:40 pm

The biggest Grizzly bear rug I've ever seen was harvested with a 30-30. It's the only rifle a friend of mine's father-in-law owns. He's lived in Alaska his whole life, hunts all his own meat and uses the 30-30 on everything.

When I worked up in Alaska, near Nak Nek, we'd see coastal browns daily. In that tundra scrub thicket, I don't care what you have with you... it won't feel like enough. Those are some BIG Bears.

tman · Post by **tman** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:18 am

getitdone1 wrote:I've been reading lots of stories and comments about the 30-30 and grizzlies on various internet sites.

What motivated me to start this thread was a story by a guy from Georgia who spent some time in British Columbia, Canada. He said he met several big game guides who were making camps ready for the hunting season and each had a Marlin 336, 30-30 in their saddle scabbards. He said they told him their 30-30's were adequate--now get this--because when a grizzly charges they get within about 10 feet and stand up on their hind legs and you then shoot them in the chest 2-3 times. So.....you stand your ground till they get within 10 feet and stand up and then let'em have it. Isn't that rather hard to believe? This guy said all the guides said this was true and he therefore had to believe it. (Anyone laughing or smiling at this point?)

I found that Jack Turner (told this here before) who killed a charging grizzly with his 30-30 also had a run-in with a sow grizzly with cubs. He killed her with one shot. In 2005 at age 74 Jack was going to his daughter's place to feed her dogs when he was attacked by a grizzly and lost an ear. Believe this was in the little village of Hagensborg east of Bella Coola. I've read on the internet that the Bella Coola Valley has an excess of grizzlies and lots of concern from people living in the area. One guy in this area had several Llamas and another similar type of South American animal and these animals charge what's threatening them. Didn't work with 'ole grizz who killed a bunch of'em to the tune of about 15,000 dollars worth.

Then there's stories about the natives who live in grizzly territory and seem to get by with all kinds of underpowered guns. Interesting when I think about it that I've never heard of native people up there getting killed by grizzlies. I would guess some have been killed and due to not having enough gun--just didn't make the news. I'm sure what saves most people is bears usually chosing to leave rather than confront a human.

One guy told about a couple of fellows who killed a large brown bear and it required 2 shotgun slugs and 2 bullets from a 375 H&H. Stories like this make you wonder about the use of a 30-30 on grizzlies even though they are smaller. I know if you read enough you'll find that several people had a hard time bringing down a brown or grizzly when using the more powerful cartridges, as in this case.

Ralph Edwards killed over 50 grizzlies and at one time was a guide for grizzly hunters. One time he had a detective from Los Angeles for a client and they wounded a grizzly but it was late in the evening so they decided to come back for it the next morning when the light was better. The bear had stayed in the area over night and he came out charging. Forget the exact details but think he and this detective put 4 or 5 bullets in this bears chest--you could cover all of these hits with your hand--before the bear went down. Ralph said something like it was the hardest bear to put down he'd ever seen. No doubt being hit the previous day and suffering had the bear looking for revenge. Ralph was using a model 8 Remington, 35 Remington and believe his client was using a 30-06.

I would think if you put a 30-30 170 grain bullet in the right place you're going to kill that bear about as well as if you'd put a 180 grain bullet from a 30-06 in the same place. I'm talking 50 yds or closer. But when it gets down to it I know I'd want all the power I could handle well and I'm sure most people would agree. You'd want to do as much damage as possible no matter where you hit the bear. My 1st choice would be my Browning 1886 SRC loaded with Barnes Original 400 gr bullets--and I'd be doing some serious practicing with this gun before the hunt.

Don

Like you, i'd prefer my 45-70 SRC. However, i won't turn down a free bear hunt if all i had was a 30-30. This is the 30-06 vs. 308 argument that will never get settled.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:24 am

1. Shot Placement
2. Bullet Construction
3. Cartridge Power

The .30-30 only limits the third one, and even there is at least 'moderate' by today's Africa-capable standards; better than the spears, bows, and muzzleloaders used up until the past 120 years or so.

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:52 am

they hunt grizzlies with bows...

why not a 30-30

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:43 am

I've even heard tell of a man killing a grizzly with a knife. He was
attacked, and that's the best weapon he had on him.

The 30-30 with a 170 gr. CoreLokt bullet is, was, and will continue
to be a potent weapon on North American big game. True, a 45-70 will
make a bigger hole in whatever it hits, but the 30-30 has killed A LOT
of game over the last century.

The late jeff Cooper said something about the weapon mattering less than
the shooter. Still true today. (That said, I'd still prefer something bigger
than a 30-30 in grizzly country!)

-Stretch

gcs · Post by **gcs** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:16 am

I think if you wait for a Griz to "rear up" at 10' or so... your going to have a short day.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:23 am

gcs wrote:I think if you wait for a Griz to "rear up" at 10' or so... your going to have a short day.

I'm with ya. I'm not betting my paycheck on that. Now mind you, I've never been attacked by a grizzly before and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but all the footage I've seen of a griz attacking prey they don't stop and stand up. They bowl right into it and grab on with forearms and teeth. I'd definitely have to cape my shorts after that.

Shot placement with an adequate round in my mind is everything.

Always wanted to hunt griz. My brother lived in Soldotna, AK and was a driller on the north slope. He worked with a guy that guided griz hunts on his days off. The guy said to shoot the bear in the hump and then pour slugs into it until you were sure it was dead. I guess everyone baits their hooks differently.

Good to see you posting Whit Spurzon.

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:26 am

For those not familiar with the story by Jack Turner "Killer Grizzly At 6 Feet"..........

Jack recounts that he had moved his family up on the Atnarko River above Lonesome Lake in British Columbia. There were bear in the area and not one to take any chances, he always carried his faithful '94 .30-30 with him when away from the homestead.

He said "You never know when a grizzly will decide to pick a fight, so I rarely venture beyond the cleared fields around our house without hanging the old .30-30 over my shoulder. That precaution has saved my skin, or my family's at least twice."

On that particular day he left his house on a 2 mile walk to repair a fence. It was a fine spring morning. He recalls, "I came to a place where the trail, winding through cedars and cottonwoods, opens into a sunny glade no bigger than a house. I rounded a bend, and there in the center of the glade stood the biggest grizzly I had ever laid eyes on (and I have seen more than 200, in just about every part of British Columbia, in the last 20 years.) He was staring straight at me, and he was just 40 feet away."

"Our eyes met and locked and he was on his way. I saw him in one instant and he was coming for me in a savage rush, running like a dog after his prey. He was drooling as he came, and a low growl was rumbling in his throat. I whipped the Winchester off my back and, since I carry the rifle loaded in the magazine but none in the chamber, I had to lever in a shell. The bear was almost on me when I slammed my shot into him, and I recall thinking, in that brief flash of time, that I'd only have time for one."

“I was using 170 gr. Soft point factory loads. I hit him dead center between the eyes and that soft point bullet blew his whole brain out through a hole in the back of his skull. He was still running full tilt when I shot, but his head went down between his forelegs, and he fell almost straight down. I backed off a few steps, held the rifle on him, and waited until I was sure there wasn’t a spark of life left in him. He was a buster, by far the biggest grizzly we had ever seen.”

Jack goes on to say that if the skull would have been intact, it would have scored 27 in the Boone and Crockett Clubs book according to them. The largest score on record at the time was 26 10/16.

Thank goodness he had a very dependable, handy, .30-30 rifle and knew how to use it when the chips were down.

w30wcf

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:43 am

w30wcf,

Thanks for that. I've mentioned that story in the past here but never in it's complete form like you have. Believe Jack was using a model 94 Winchester. Jack, as I've mentioned before, was the son-in-law of Ralph Edwards who killed over 50 grizzlies and then said he stopped counting. If you're curious about the location you can find both Lonesome Lake and Turner Lake at the Google Map site.

I remember one story where the guy said if he'd been packing his .338 bolt gun instead of a 30-30 lever he'd never got off the second round to finish a charging grizzly. Many would disagree with me but for this reason my ultimate bear gun would be a Browning BAR from 308 to 338 and I'd be sure I knew how to keep it reliable. To my knowledge it's the most reliable of all the "sporting" types of semi-autos. In reality I'd take my Browning 1886, 45-70. Much prefer to carry it than a semi-auto.

Ralph Edwards killed most of his bears with a Remington model 8 semi-auto chambered for 35 Remington. This gun also has a great reputation for reliability. I believe it may have been the first truly reliable semi-auto sporting rifle. It first came-out in 1906, and Ralph bought his right after he left the army around 1916-18. Good article about this gun at the Wikipedia encyclopedia site. I wonder if this gun is even more reliable than the current Browning BAR? It's recoil operated while the Browning is gas-operated. Maybe the recoil operated would be the most reliable. That's how the famous Browning A-5 semi-auto shotgun operates--and the model 11 Remington which is a near clone of the Browning.

Don

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:07 pm

I know I am going to tick some off on here but?---------------------
No way in HE## a 30-30 is proper for a Grizzly.Sure if somehow you are out in woods with a 30-30(that's all you got)
That stuff about a grizzly always (stopping

) 10ft from someone on a full charge.

Let's be truthful here, in the world of rifles a 30-30 is a fairly weak cartridge.(about what a 7MM Mag is at 400-500 YARDS)
When going after a grizzly you would think you would want a fairly heavy hitting gun to save yourself and to do justice to the animal,

With that type thinking, heck why not use a .22(they could kill one too)

If you want to try killing that 750lb charging car flipper with huge teeth/claws bent on offing you up close and personal. (WoW)

Wait, sure I would hunt one like that-----maybe if I had 86er behind me with a .416 Weatherby??????????

ps-----If that one bear took slugs and .375H&H rds can't imagine what the bear would have done with some 30-30's

That equates to about using a .410 for elephant

pdawg.shooter · Post by **pdawg.shooter** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:12 pm

Give the choice of weapon to stop a charging bear, I will take the M2 Browning with a full belt. As they are a bit much to lug around, I will settle for my 1895g. That said, a if all I had was a 30-30 I would not throw it down and run. Everyone knows a 30-30 is just barely sufficient for the average jackrabbit. The gun hacks have been telling us that for years now.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:45 pm

since you're talking about very short shots, I believe the 30-30 and something more powerful would be hard to tell apart. A hole is a hole, and if it's going too fast the bullet might not hold up. Sometimes too a little more time inside the target helps with expansion and destruction.

It's nice to know that a 30-30 will penetrate the skull of a grizzly, I'm not so sure about .357. Also he might have gotten a lucky shot up its nose.

We just had a thread about a girl killing a record grizzly with a .22lr.

RustyJr · Post by **RustyJr** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:23 pm

If I were to need a long gun for big bear defense it would either be a 45-70 guide gun or a remington 870 with a rifled slug barrel and slugs. And of the two I think I just might pick the 870. While the 45-70 might penetrate more, a slug would surely penerate plenty and while a CNS hit is the only gauruteed one shot stop, I would think that the larger frontal area of a 12 gauge slug impart more shock. Am I correct in this line of thought? Maybe 86er or someone with more experiance can shed some light on this.

RustyJr

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:56 pm

RustyJr wrote:If I were to need a long gun for big bear defense it would either be a 45-70 guide gun or a remington 870 with a rifled slug barrel and slugs. And of the two I think I just might pick the 870. While the 45-70 might penetrate more, a slug would surely penerate plenty and while a CNS hit is the only gauruteed one shot stop, I would think that the larger frontal area of a 12 gauge slug impart more shock. Am I correct in this line of thought? Maybe 86er or someone with more experiance can shed some light on this.

RustyJr

RustyJr,

If I used a shotgun with slugs I'd definitely want to use the deeper penetrating Brenneke slugs. Maybe there's even better slugs available now. What about the sabot in a shotgun? I don't know much about them.

Don

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:22 pm

VERY interesting account of the new 140 gr. Hornady FTX (all metal, flex tip spitzer) vs. bears in September 2011 Shooting Times. Will post a separate thread so that this doesn't turn into a hijacked discussion. Bottom line: It looks to be a real game killer.

Post by **Old Savage** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:33 pm

Well at 10' the impact velocity of a 170 gr is going to be about 2100-2200 fps from a 30-30. From a 30-06 is it would be about the same with a 180 bullet at 200 yds.

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:03 pm

I love this thread especially the old stories. But I'd like to do some comparisons here. Madman made his case for the .30-30 not being large enough. I'm neither for nor agaisnt because I've never shot a grizzly with a .30-30 let alone any other critter. The only thing I have to go by is 12ga. vs. deer.

With a 12ga. slug it's my experience that less than half the chest shot deer drop on the spot. It's also my experience that 12ga. does very little damage to the surrounding meat and that even on broadside shots you may or may not get an exit (Federal 1oz Maximum loads). It doesn't seem that it wouldn't be all that hard to get better penetration and meat damage with a .30-30 does it? I know I've had more of both using my puny 4" .357 on deer (limited experience).

IMO DRT on a critter means 2 things, either a cns hit or overwhelming firepower. You can nick a rabbit with a .22-250 and about blow it in half (overwhelming firepower) or you can shot a yote in the ear with a .22 and get DRT (cns hit). Seems like it's gonna be about impossible to overwhelm a bear so that means you're gonna have to make a CNS hit if you're not gonna get bit. How much difference is caliber when you have to do that on a charging bear? I just can't see a .30-30 being all that bad. And from my experience I don't see a 12ga being that good.

LK

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:24 pm

L_Kilkenny wrote:I love this thread especially the old stories. But I'd like to do some comparisons here. Madman made his case for the .30-30 not being large enough. I'm neither for nor agaisnt because I've never shot a grizzly with a .30-30 let alone any other critter. The only thing I have to go by is 12ga. vs. deer.

With a 12ga. slug it's my experience that less than half the chest shot deer drop on the spot. It's also my experience that 12ga. does very little damage to the surrounding meat and that even on broadside shots you may or may not get an exit (Federal 1oz Maximum loads). It doesn't seem that it wouldn't be all that hard to get better penetration and meat damage with a .30-30 does it? I know I've had more of both using my puny 4" .357 on deer (limited experience).

IMO DRT on a critter means 2 things, either a cns hit or overwhelming firepower. You can nick a rabbit with a .22-250 and about blow it in half (overwhelming firepower) or you can shot a yote in the ear with a .22 and get DRT (cns hit). Seems like it's gonna be about impossible to overwhelm a bear so that means you're gonna have to make a CNS hit if you're not gonna get bit. How much difference is caliber when you have to do that on a charging bear? I just can't see a .30-30 being all that bad. And from my experience I don't see a 12ga being that good.

LK

Guess you must of missed the part about the type slug makes all the diffrence ??
Your slug? Bet that Federal was a SOFT lead slug,going real slow.

Take that slug and make it a brenneke or a 385gr 50cal Nosler Partition(going 2000fps) from a 12ga and you have a entirely different deal.(like comparing a Kia vs a Volvo.
Last bear I shot was a 486 pounder and that 385gr broke both shoulder and everything in between and died right then and there.

And last deer I shot with it(170lb)complete pass through of side of deer and was dug out of frozen earthen bank(was located under ground 8 inches deep)

Buy a Hastings rifled barrel if your gun will accept one and actually for all practical purposes what you have is a 50 cal rifle.
The Brenneke slug*well that's just perfection for a big/slow slug)if they are good enough for Alaska F&G for POLAR BEAR they are (good enough)period

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:33 pm

Lewis and Clark in their diaries credited a 20 gauge ball gun as being their 'stopper' for grizzlies. Is it a case of 'modern grizzlies' being tougher than the grizzlies of old or it it a matter of ''modern hunters' not measuring up to scratch?

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:39 pm

BAGTIC wrote:Lewis and Clark in their diaries credited a 20 gauge ball gun as being their 'stopper' for grizzlies. Is it a case of 'modern grizzlies' being tougher than the grizzlies of old or it it a matter of ''modern hunters' not measuring up to scratch?

ya, and the cavemen killed mastadon's with spears too.(wonder how many died on both parties?)
They used what they had.
Oh, and your right we aren't probably half the men they were

El Chivo(

)
Difference? a hole is a hole?

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:52 pm

gcs wrote:I think if you wait for a Griz to "rear up" at 10' or so... your going to have a short day.

you bet!!!....most of the maulings that i know of, the bear just ran in and tore into the person like a dog would do a cat or rat.....not to say some dont stand up, but you cant count on that.

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:15 pm

L_Kilkenny,

Your doubts about the 12 ga. slug may have some merit if you're refering to standard slugs and not Brenneke.

I don't have a 12 ga but do have a 20 and 16. Tested 20 ga slugs from Winchester and Remington on jugs filled with water. Winchester was 3/4 oz and Remington 5/8 oz. The Winchester stuck in backside of #3 and expanded greatly. The Remington penetrated 2 and didn't write it down but believe it expanded a lot also.

Now, if a smaller diameter 20 ga is this poor with penetration and going at about the same speed as the larger diameter 12 ga my guess would be the standard 12 ga slugs would not even penetrate as well as the 20 ga. Of course there's also a weight difference so the heavier 12 ga might do as well or better. Wild guess is they'd do about the same. Then you have the 2 3/4" slug shell vs. the 3 inch.

Winchester SuperX 20 ga #3 buckshot (20 pellets) penetrated 3 and I was expecting less. Like to try 12 ga 00 some time. I think most knowledgeable hunters of bears would have no use for buckshot on grizzlies. May be O.K. for black bears and expect some here know for sure about this.

I do think the slugs and buckshot are great for self-defense against humans. I think they'd be hard to beat as long as distance was short.

An odd thing happened when I first shot slugs at the jugs. At 25 feet I didn't hit the jugs! Smooth bore, not rifled and I was setting resting gun on typical rifle rest. I couldn't believe it! Got to looking and found where the slug had hit the metal pipe horse under the jug and board, flattened out and dropped to the ground. Got a target and tested this Remington model 1100 and found it shot about 6" low with slug and about 4" low with buckshot--at 25 feet! Now interested in a holographic sight for this gun. (suggestions welcome) Found screw-in modified choke was sticking out a bit and screwed it all the way in as tight as I could get it. I doubt that caused this problem.

Don

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:38 pm

hfcable wrote:
gcs wrote:I think if you wait for a Griz to "rear up" at 10' or so... your going to have a short day.
you bet!!!....most of the maulings that i know of, the bear just ran in and tore into the person like a dog would do a cat or rat.....not to say some dont stand up, but you cant count on that.

My thoughts are the only time a bear would stand up is if he doesn't know what he's looking at and is trying to get a better perspective. And, that would be from distance. Once the mind is made up their going to charge you aren't going to get another chance at it to stand up. It's either going to barrel right into you or break off the charge and run off. If it starts coming at me I'm blazing with whatever I have and I don't go into the woods with only a 22.

tman · Post by **tman** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:14 pm

yeah, but i wouldn't want to tell an Inuit Eskimo that his .222 Remington wasn't enough for polar bears. Especially after he spent a lifetime harvesting them with one. Perhaps it's more the man behind the gun than muzzle velocity, energy and ballistic coefficents. Big bears make nice reading and sell big magnum cartridges. I'd bet more elephants fell to the 303 british and 308 winchesters than 458 lotts and 600 nitros. Cause the farmers and ivory poachers used what they could afford and had to shoot to live.

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:14 pm

tman wrote:yeah, but i wouldn't want to tell an Inuit Eskimo that his .222 Remington wasn't enough for polar bears. Especially after he spent a lifetime harvesting them with one. Perhaps it's more the man behind the gun than muzzle velocity, energy and ballistic coefficents. Big bears make nice reading and sell big magnum cartridges. I'd bet more elephants fell to the 303 british and 308 winchesters than 458 lotts and 600 nitros. Cause the farmers and ivory poachers used what they could afford and had to shoot to live.

also true but....there was a very well known native hunter on the alaskan peninsula who used a 22 hornet for everything, including numerous brown bears. he would hunker down out of sight a 100 yds away, pop up, shoot, hunker,etc. using a number of well placed shots to kill the bear. it worked pretty well for quite a few bears, but not all of them. when he didnt return they found him where the bear had spotted him and gotten him. this is not a made up tale, i have read the original accounts of him including his final, fatal episode.
i have never shot a grizzly or brown bear and have no interest in it. if i ever do shoot one deliberately, it will be with my heavy loaded 45/70 since that is what i nearly always use.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:26 pm

Check table below and see what a 530gr hardcast bullet from the 45-70 does at only 1500fps
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _86704793/

it came in at 55" (the most of the test)

Now,knowing that a Brenneke tosses a 600gr hardcast slug at 1502fps(what ya think?)

Don, you need to test them sometime?

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:15 pm

This account was posted on the old Marlin Talk Forum several years ago....

My brother got a newfound respect for the .30-30 while investigating a self-defense kill on a grizzly on an A-F base in the early'80s. Fella had killed a Moose and had gone back next day to finish packing out carcass. A 700-800lb Griz had found it and took offense at being disturbed.

Two quick shots from .30/30 ended the argument with one shot (second fired) hitting griz in nose and exiting back of skull. First shot fired at charging bear had struck neck left of cheek and penetrated length wise lodging in paunch of Griz! and would have been a fatal shot, but would have taken a few too many moments to take effect.

Ammo was Federal premium 170gr partitions. Hunter related he could never have made either shot with the .338 WinMag. he had used the day previous to kill moose as gun didn't "handle quick enough!". He also talked to some of the local's (native indians) who used an old rusty '94 and whatever ammo was around for killing whales and seals during seasons.

w30wcf

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:30 pm

madman4570 wrote:Check table below and see what a 530gr hardcast bullet from the 45-70 does at only 1500fps
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _86704793/

it came in at 55" (the most of the test)

Now,knowing that a Brenneke tosses a 600gr hardcast slug at 1502fps(what ya think?)

Don, you need to test them sometime?

madman4570,

Yeah I'd like to test the Brenneke slug and may. Think they might be hard to find in 20 ga. Don't have a 12 ga.

Thanks for that link. Very interesting tests. Penetration is great but I'm wondering about the importance of the mushrooming bullet for perhaps quicker kills. The Nosler Partition gives you a little of both and did fine with my 270 but only fair with my 30-30.

Don't anyone get me wrong, I don't see penetration through water jugs as the last word but just a fairly good indicator of what a bullet will do on animals--including man. When big bone enters the pictures you're best served with a long, heavy bullet and then I don't know whether mushrooming is a good thing or not. I doubt it.

I think those guides "had a meeting" before they made contact with the guy from Georgia. I'll hand it to'em though, chest shots on a standing bear makes for a pretty good story.

Don

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:50 pm

although a bit out of date , here was some extensive testing done by the feds in juneau to better advise rangers and wildlife agents what to use for bear defense. would like to see this type of work repeated with modern slugs, modern jacketed bullets, heavier loads for some calibers, barnes solids, hard cast etc.:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/25558934/Safe ... ar-country

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:48 pm

I think it's obvious the 30-30 will work when the hit is good. The only fly in the ointment for me is the chance that the hit may not be good, depending on the range, angle, etc. I simply choose a large gun for the better penetration and bone breaking ability in case of a shot that doesnt go straight into the brain. A shoulder or body shot with a heavier rifle will break bones and go deeper.

The guys 338 may not have handled well, and he may not have been able to make either shot, but that's his problem, not the gun's nature of being a bolt gun (he may also not have needed a second shot with the 338, or had better results on the first shot). A good fitting gun is a good fitting gun, no matter the action type. Most bolt gun users have glass, which is fine, but they often have too much scope, and leave them at too high of power for close quick work. It isnt against the law to have good irons on a bolt gun either. Just saying, if you wander around in bear country, you can improve your odds with anything you carry by becoming as good with it as you can, and making it fit you for quick work. Changing length of pull, drop at heel and comb in relation to sight/scope height, butt plate angle, etc are all relatively simple, and help the handling of the gun. Shotgun shooters do it all the time. For some reason rifle shooters don't seem to much, beyond perhaps length of pull. Most lever guns handle pretty well as the come for me, and the average guy, but may not for the next guy down the line.

Post by **Old Savage** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:21 am

Now that makes some practical sense! Played on five straight undefeated football teams through three schools and so saw people do what had to be done under pressure. The guy? The gun?

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:32 am

I learned that years ago the local Rangers used 444 Marlins in some tight bush to hunt bears who harmed or threatened tourists in Banff. Once while buying ammo the owner said they walked in a bought him dry for spring/summer season use. The Rangers reported being happy with the 265 444 Rem for close work. They hunted in skilled teams. I used them for years and was very satisifed close and long. I consider it a Grizzly rifle with 265 Hornadys, many would disagree. I would carry a 30-30 in grizzly country as protection because the drive to the trail would be hundreds of times more dangerous.

My strategies are simple. If woods loafing shoot as soon as I step on the trail, shoot lots and often as I hike. I see fresh bear sign, fresh berry patches, smell of rotting flesh I leave. I have no desire to kill a grizzly anymore. Southern animals don't stalk gunfire. I've read that Alaska and remote Canadian bears will stalk gunfire for gut piles and believe it. I've had two grizzly experiences while hunting the Canadian East Slope as a solo backpack hunter in the 70s.

Both involved hunting season kill sites and an early pre-dawn morning return. I was brought up to believe if you run your a big rabbit to a bear. I backed away slowly at the ready. Actually spoke softly to settle my panic then fired a warning shot that sprayed them with dirt. I lost both carcasses as they ran off both times but we were deep in the bush and short of killing them they weren't leaving that fresh deer for me. I can still hear their jaws popping. I grew up around black bears but I was not prepared for the difference in my level of panic, and not ashamed to tell you. I was literally scared almost to death. I sure was glad to be carrying my 444 with a peep sight and toilet paper.

Post by **Old Savage** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:12 am

I walked along the top of a ridge at dark back to the truck. Although doing this a number of times before the hair was up on the back of my neck. I had a 7-08 and thought it might be a mountain lion but was convinced it was something - I turned continually with the rifle and to look - no incident but I think something was eyeing me.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:27 am

I read this article by Paco:

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/3030again.htm

His final line is worthy of consideration.

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:25 am

Paco loads real hot. He also has fingers to write with after more shooting time than large groups of us combined. He tickles on 303 Brit territory and that is fine company.

I just don't know if I got the stomach for the extra zip. I am soon getting a 32 Special 94 and by all accounts it can handle a touch more zip for equal pressure.

I do like the heavier bullet though. I figure go to the large side if hunting.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:17 am

It's an all around excellent hunting cartridge and delivery system. Either the Winchester 94 or the Marlin 336. One'd do well not to short change it. Is it the best for all situations? No... but it's a heck of a substitute for 'em all, from big to small!

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:59 am

Ive seen grizzlies that were killed with 22's and 410 shotguns a 30-30 is a few notches above that. danny

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:15 am

The humane and sportsmans goal on any animal is to kill them with the first shot. With dangerous game doing that would be even more important. The time between the first and second shot could find the hunter dead with dangerous game. This brings home the importance of using as much power as you can handle well when around or hunting dangerous game.

Easy to see where a bolt-action with scope could get you killed close-up with a grizzly. Actually a gun with a scope, period. I suppose a guy could practice close-up shooting by aiming along side the scope. I never have but this would put you pretty close to where you want to hit. I may give this a try with targets at about 25 ft. At this distance the bullet will hit about an inch and a half low due to distance of center of scope above muzzle. Most people, most of the time, are going to have a scoped gun when they are out hunting in grizzly country.

If I was in thick wilderness vegetation where I knew there were grizzlies I'd want to remove the scope even if the gun had no open sights. A 1-3X variable wouldn't be too bad but I'd still prefer open sights. An Aimpoint type sight or holographic might be hard to beat.

Dick Proenneke, who live in the Alaskan wilderness for many years, told me about a guy who was killed by a grizzly and they found empty 375 H&H casings in the area. I expect he was using a scope and would guess he was not an experienced outdoorsman/hunter. Once a grizzly is hit and knows where the hurt came from I can see where they could be real hard to put down unless you hit the brain or spine. With the more powerful cartridges breaking them down with a shoulder shot is possible and here's where the larger more powerful cartridges prove their worth with dangerous game.

A little off the subject but try typing "grizzly bear vs caribou" in the YouTube search box. Momma grizzly gets the job done.

Don

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:25 pm

As I walked the trails at my place today(just me and my Lab Charlie)wife said it was too hot.
Really it wasn't bad(will go again at 8pm)I just look and think " If " a bear in this type landscape decides to ambush you or even if you come upon a mother with cubs and she goes for you(it's going to be real close.
Unless on a log trail or under the big hemlocks in the gorges probably 40yards to 1 yard

Honestly, in that situation ya I am carrying something bigger than the 30-30 but honestly I don't know if I would be fast enough?
Wild game is so much more adapt at being illusive and if predatory being that way as well.
With the leaves and greenery being so much thicker this time of year(think the bear has the advantage.)

I have never seen the bears act like they have been acting in the last couple years?
All I know the best defense I have right now isnt the gun(its the dog)

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:35 pm

getitdone1 wrote:The humane and sportsmans goal on any animal is to kill them with the first shot. With dangerous game doing that would be even more important. The time between the first and second shot could find the hunter dead with dangerous game. This brings home the importance of using as much power as you can handle well when around or hunting dangerous game.

Easy to see where a bolt-action with scope could get you killed close-up with a grizzly. Actually a gun with a scope, period. I suppose a guy could practice close-up shooting by aiming along side the scope. I never have but this would put you pretty close to where you want to hit. I may give this a try with targets at about 25 ft. At this distance the bullet will hit about an inch and a half low due to distance of center of scope above muzzle. Most people, most of the time, are going to have a scoped gun when they are out hunting in grizzly country.

If I was in thick wilderness vegetation where I knew there were grizzlies I'd want to remove the scope even if the gun had no open sights. A 1-3X variable wouldn't be too bad but I'd still prefer open sights. An Aimpoint type sight or holographic might be hard to beat.

Dick Proenneke, who live in the Alaskan wilderness for many years, told me about a guy who was killed by a grizzly and they found empty 375 H&H casings in the area. I expect he was using a scope and would guess he was not an experienced outdoorsman/hunter. Once a grizzly is hit and knows where the hurt came from I can see where they could be real hard to put down unless you hit the brain or spine. With the more powerful cartridges breaking them down with a shoulder shot is possible and here's where the larger more powerful cartridges prove their worth with dangerous game.

A little off the subject but try typing "grizzly bear vs caribou" in the YouTube search box. Momma grizzly gets the job done.

Don

YA had to go and open a whole nother can of worms didn't ya!

Fast and close, slow and long. I'll take a scope over opens any day of the week and twice on Sundays. There is no time a scope isn't better for shooting. Carrying being a different matter all together.

LK

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:44 pm

L_Kilkenny wrote:
getitdone1 wrote:The humane and sportsmans goal on any animal is to kill them with the first shot. With dangerous game doing that would be even more important. The time between the first and second shot could find the hunter dead with dangerous game. This brings home the importance of using as much power as you can handle well when around or hunting dangerous game.

Easy to see where a bolt-action with scope could get you killed close-up with a grizzly. Actually a gun with a scope, period. I suppose a guy could practice close-up shooting by aiming along side the scope. I never have but this would put you pretty close to where you want to hit. I may give this a try with targets at about 25 ft. At this distance the bullet will hit about an inch and a half low due to distance of center of scope above muzzle. Most people, most of the time, are going to have a scoped gun when they are out hunting in grizzly country.

If I was in thick wilderness vegetation where I knew there were grizzlies I'd want to remove the scope even if the gun had no open sights. A 1-3X variable wouldn't be too bad but I'd still prefer open sights. An Aimpoint type sight or holographic might be hard to beat.

Dick Proenneke, who live in the Alaskan wilderness for many years, told me about a guy who was killed by a grizzly and they found empty 375 H&H casings in the area. I expect he was using a scope and would guess he was not an experienced outdoorsman/hunter. Once a grizzly is hit and knows where the hurt came from I can see where they could be real hard to put down unless you hit the brain or spine. With the more powerful cartridges breaking them down with a shoulder shot is possible and here's where the larger more powerful cartridges prove their worth with dangerous game.

A little off the subject but try typing "grizzly bear vs caribou" in the YouTube search box. Momma grizzly gets the job done.

Don
YA had to go and open a whole nother can of worms didn't ya! Fast and close, slow and long. I'll take a scope over opens any day of the week and twice on Sundays. There is no time a scope isn't better for shooting. Carrying being a different matter all together.

LK

Come on LK

There is many times a scopeless gun is much better.
With that statement I have to have a beer.

Also, why don't most small game hunters use scopes on their shotguns for the various birds, rabbits and such (and don't say they will use red dots either.Doesn't matter shot or bullet(point of aim is point of aim)
They are for people with crossed eyes?

Don??????????????/

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:08 pm

madman4570,

Your statement about your best defense against bears at this time is your dog is something I wonder about.

I've heard people say that they didn't want a dog with them in bear country because the dog can irritate the bear and then the bear starts chasing the dog and the dog runs to you for safety with the bear close behind. Without the dog the bear might have kept it's distance.

Actually I think having your dog along could turn out good or bad. Maybe someone here has a solid answer to this.

I've returned here to mention that member Malamute has dogs he takes with him on his hikes in grizzly country. Hopefully he'll read this and give us his opinion.

Don

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:30 pm

" Actually I think having your dog along could turn out good or bad. Maybe someone here has a solid answer to this. "

that sums it up.. i know first of stories that went either way. i dont take the dog with me, mostly cause i dont want to have to worry about it as well as myself.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:34 pm

Don,
Thing is a Lab has a nose that is astounding.
This dog can smell anything/everything evrywhere.
What I want is to be alerted first and foremost.

Yellow Labs(actually the yellow ones)are what 95% of the airports use as search dogs.
This one I have has the heart of a lion.
First Lab I ever had,and I now see why they are the most popular.(but he's a brave boy/not what many say about theirs?)

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:41 am

L_Kilkenny wrote:I'll take a scope over opens any day of the week and twice on Sundays. There is no time a scope isn't better for shooting.

Now I think you are just trying to pull our legs! With a bear exploding out of the Alders just 30 feet away and 1 & 1/4 seconds to death, give me open iron sights for sure. Try shooting clays with a scoped rifle.

Scopes and the adrenalin problem: Twice, I've run into Black Bears unexpectedly, once at 30 feet in the bush with a stringer full of fish in my hand and it was standing on its hind feet on the path through the bush staring straight at me, and once at 18 inches at night in its den with a massive black face just 18 inches away. Both times I will remember an instantaneous blast of adrenaline coupled with an almost overwhelming muscular reaction to jerk back which I had to willfully override. All that takes time, even if only a half second. Fine motor control is very difficult to achieve in the next 1 second after the initial adrenaline explosion, during which time a fellow would have to swing the carbine on target, rack in a round, acquire the sight-picture and squeeze the trigger. That is not the time for a scope; give me open irons in that situation for sure. Fast and accurate trumps not-quite-as-fast and more accurate when a fellow has 1 and a half seconds to live or die.

Dogs in the bush: A coward dog could be a problem, and those kind may not be the type to bring into the bush. But there are good dogs too. I witnessed the coward dog problem first hand when I was 17 years old. A small stray dog had showed up at the farm that day and was wandering around. Dad and I were fixing a fence, with Dad on the inside and me on the outside. The cows were calving. The small stray decided to take a wander through the cow pen. A cow charged the dog, the dog fled right through my Dad's legs and the cow hit my Dad and started to trample and head-shove him into the muck. I jumped over the fence and grabbed the cow's head in a bear hug, covering both its eyes with my arms and trying to wrestle the head away from my Dad. I was not able to hold it for long, but long enough for Dad to make it through the fence to safety. He had a splintered vertebrae. I cannot recall what we did with the dog, but I'm pretty sure we shot it. That was a coward (and stupid) dog. On the other hand, there are good dogs that will not run to their masters for protection, but face the threat. We have a dog like that, a Maremma (don't ever get one of these if you live in the city; these are rural dogs only). The more aggressive the threat, the more aggressive the dog gets. I like to take our dog with us when we go on one of our wilderness canoe/camping trips. I sleep much better at night knowing nothing is getting into camp without the dog letting us know. A good dog is the best early warning system you can have in the bush.

And now for some photos ......

Our Maremma standing guard over our camp in the wilderness at dusk ....

'Old Savage' my 30-30 carbine made in 1954 ....

My Browning/Miroku 1886 SRC .45-70 ....

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:20 pm

well said. beautiful dog; i have heard about them. with a dog like that i would sleep better in camp too.

Catshooter · Post by **Catshooter** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:52 pm

Kirk,

I agree with every word you posted. And thanks for the great 94 photo!

Cat

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:57 pm

Great guns and (What a Dog)

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:43 pm

as said dogs can put you in a bind 2 years ago the wife and I had gone for a horse ride and took my heeler cow dog ran into a grizz 50 yds down hill of the trail while I was watching the bear the dog saw/heard something and went after it up the trail when I noticed he was gone I called him back then heard a cub squall and climb a tree my dog came high balling down the trail with a BB sow in tow trying to swat him she stopped 30 yds away stomping and carrying on took my attention off the grizz who in all the excitement and noise decided to wander back down the hill after I got it all sorted out figured the grizz was putting the sneak on the sow/cub to have lunch as she was upwind of him.
If I hadnt called the dog back he would of fought the sow and normally I make sure he doesnt leave me I was a bit busy watching the grizz and hadnt put the dog in a hold position, worrying about the big bear had my attention and didnt leave me time to roll a smoke. 2 different bears at the same time should make some kind of list.
Just make sure your dogs obey you and can face up to trouble and not run and dont call them back if trouble starts, my cow dogs will and have held bears and moose till I can sort the problem out. Swamp donkeys are bad berry on one dog, 2 gives them grief a pack of cow dogs can have lunch. danny