The 30-30--greater than I thought

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getitdone1
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The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by getitdone1 »

My first high-powered rifle was a new Winchester model 94, 30-30. Before buying this gun I recall going to some nearby stripper pits with a guy who had a 94, 32 Winchester. He shot it through some thick ice and I was really impressed with the power it demonstrated.

When the only rifle you've ever used is one that shoots 22 short, long and long rifle your first shot with a 30-30 is memorable. The report and recoil--a different world!

After that first 30-30 (around 1962) I never had another one for many years. I played with lots of fast cartridges including the 257 Weatherby. In recent years I've come back to the 30-30 because I'm not one to sit for hours waiting for long distance shots using a fast, flat shooting cartridge. I mainly have use for a light weight, easy to carry gun for walks in the woods. Varmits close-up are about the only animals I'm likely to kill and if I run into a rabid animal I have plenty of power for a one shot kill. For this use I've gone to the 125 gr bullet and find it's explosive and deadly for smaller animals--I'm sure deer too.

Once you read enough about people who live in the wilds where large, sometimes dangerous animals live and use only a 30-30, you come to appreciate the difference between what works in reality and the more powerful cartridges gun writers say you must have. When shooting into water jugs I found the 30-30 factory loads did about as well as my 243, 270 or 348 and that's penetration of 4 jugs. Not into 4th jug but all the way through it. That's with general and not specific, deep penetrating loads. The deep penetrating loads generally go through one more bottle.

So now, after many years of reading and all kinds of guns and cartridges, I have a much greater respect for this little, highly popular, inexpensive cartridge.

Don
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by AJMD429 »

Yep. Lots of the 'mid-size' rounds are really superb. Charging polar bear? Give me a 20mm cannon, or a hand-grenade duct-taped on the far-side of a piece of steel treadplate, but for most stuff, the good-old .30-30 (or .357 Mag) levergun is awesome.
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by J Miller »

Well the 30-30 has been around since 1895. I kinda think they got it down pat by now. My first one was an ancient 1894 SRC I got back in about 66 or so. Lots of fun. Wish I still had it.

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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by Pitchy »

That`s why the divorce rate is so high, everyone thinks they need something a little better. :lol:
Joe, wish i had a few of the old 30-30`s back too. :roll:
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by El Chivo »

I was reading that the super duper 30 cals like 30-06 and 308 only give you 25 yards more of "PBR" which is the distance your bullet stays in a small circle. Since most people are shooting between 100 and 200 yards, why worry about the extra 25 yards and deal with the extra noise and kick? Also you can still hit the target with a 30-30, just raise it up an inch.

Having said that, I'm getting enamored of the small, efficient cartridges; I have a .243 and appreciate .223 as well.
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by Bigahh »

I can bring 10 different rifles in 10 different calibers to the range with me, and for whatever reason the 30-30 is the most "FUN" to shoot.
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by earlmck »

Yep, such a fine cartridge. And such nifty rifles to shoot it in. And to add a bit of spice to your 30 cal life, how 'bout the 30wcf's rimless twin, the 30 Remington? Remington Model 14 pump in 30 Rem to go with 30wcf in Marlin or Win lever and you don't need it any better than that! Which I just finally discovered this year at the youthful age of 66. Sheesh!

Anyway, I've got mine now, soon to be able to field the same combo in 35 Remington. Bring on the Polar Bears! er... maybe the sabertoothed beer cans, anyway...
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by Sarge »

The 30-30 was an excellent cartridge to begin and time has aged it like a fine wine. Even in its most basic loadings, it is a solid performer on game. It has just enough diameter and bullet weight for medium game- and not so much velocity that it requires hi-tech bullets to give good penetration. It does all this, kicks little and still shoots flat enough to be (in practiced hands) an honest 200 yard hunting rifle. It reloads easily and factory duplication loads are a breeze to cook up; lead bullets over a little pistol powder turn it into a big .22 rifle. The cartridge does many things, quite well.

When you roll these attributes up in a sweet package like the 94 Winchester, it's like bacon and eggs. You never get tired of it and it never goes out of style. I have used that combination on my most memorable hunts, made my most memorable shots with it and watched my boys make their first good, clean kills with it. Hell I watched my wife kill a coyote with one, at a distance that would make most of us blush, with only it's head & neck showing above the prairie grass. I've carried a 94 on many a patrol shift.

The fact is that if you made me choose just one rifle, for life, I wouldn't even have to think about it. It's already standing loaded on my side of the bed.
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by LeverBob »

I'll throw my two cents in too:

After using the cartridge for nearly 50 yrs. like y'all & reading Stent, Fadala & a host of others works on the subject...

I'd hazard a guess that it is the finest middle ground combination that any rifleman could have in their hands under any circumstance.

YEAH! It is fun!!!!!!!!!!

(LIKE MURBACH) IF'N Y'ALL DON'T HAVE ONE THEN 'YER NUTS...A LOON...A MORON...AN IDIOT LIKE THE CURRENT WHITEHOUSE OCCUPANT. SO GO GET ONE DUMMY!

RANT OFF..... :twisted:

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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by yooper2 »

I totally concur with your opinion, having a light handy rifle makes my life a whole lot better than lugging around some big boomer. I also feel the same way with the old 25-35 compared to the modern quarter bores (the only possible exception being the 250-3000 in a nice model 99 which isn't exactly modern either!).
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by olyinaz »

getitdone1 wrote:My first high-powered rifle was a new Winchester model 94, 30-30. Before buying this gun I recall going to some nearby stripper...
I stopped reading there and my mind wandered a bit. :mrgreen:

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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by getitdone1 »

I want to be clear about something and that is I'm not saying the 30-30 is as good as you need for the larger and sometimes dangerous North American game animals. If you're OFTEN around or OFTEN going after potentially dangerous game you really do need a more powerful cartridge. It's not enough to kill a dangerous animal--you have to kill them quick!

I'm just speaking mainly about those who live in the wilderness full time. A good example would be native Indians and those very few caucasions who have chosen the wilderness life. For many years the 30-30 has served them well. So has the 22 long rifle.

Dick Proenneke lived in the wilds of Alaska for many years. He saw many grizzlies. He even went into some of their (unoccupied!) dens. He told me a fellow in Alaska was killed by a grizzly and they found several fired 375 H&H casings at the sight. So, as has been said so many times, shot placement is by far the most important thing--(within reason) not the size of the cartridge. Dick's main gun was a sporterized Springfield, 30-06 with a peep sight.

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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by Griff »

Education... is a wonderful thing. Sometimes we just gotta "unlearn" stuff others try to teach us. In my opinion, the .30-30 is king of it's own little niche, and quite the capable knight where others rule.
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by gak »

+1 to what most everyone has said. I've shot the .30-30 going on 45 years now. Great cartridge and the guns that shoot it, in my case mostly Pre 64 94s over the years, but also a Pre War SRC and a few perfectly good 1979-80 types..
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by Sarge »

I think the 30-30 would be a better heavy game or bear defense carbine if we could get proper bullets for the task. I always wanted to try a 180-190 flatnose FMJ. I see Hawk makes a 190 JSP and that Buffalo Bore loads it to about 2100 fps. Should be good stuff, albeit pricey pricey on both counts. Any of you fellers loading a similar cast bullet up warm?
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by Sarge »

I think the 30-30 would be a better heavy game or bear defense carbine if we could get proper bullets for the task. I always wanted to try a 180-190 flatnose FMJ. I see Hawk makes a 190 JSP and that Buffalo Bore loads it to about 2100 fps. Should be good stuff, albeit pricey pricey on both counts. Any of you fellers loading a similar cast bullet up warm?

PS... nice avatar, Oly ;)

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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by 6pt-sika »

I never owned a 30-30 until later in life !

Think I was 37 or 38 when I bought the first one . In about 5 years I had an even dozen Marlin's in 30-30 and a nice old circa 1904 Winchester 1894TD . In the last two years I've sold all the Marlin's and not shot the Winchester in about 5 years !

I found em they intrested me , I shot uhm , lost intrest and went on to other things .
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by Old Savage »

Griff - once again, a master of word and thought.
Education... is a wonderful thing. Sometimes we just gotta "unlearn" stuff others try to teach us. In my opinion, the .30-30 is king of it's own little niche, and quite the capable knight where others rule.
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by getitdone1 »

Something I really knew but found out for sure when shooting various cartridges/bullets through plastic gallon milk jugs is: The more the bullet expands the LESS it penetrates. Of course we all know that but it's nice to see it really happen. For instance, I can shoot my hot 45-70 load with Barnes 400 gr bullet and dent the backside of #6 jug. I shoot the much less powerful Remington 405 gr factory load and I go through 10!

With the Barnes bullet I get a great and big mushroom while with the Remington I could detect no expansion at all in the backside of the jugs. I have to capture that Remington 405 gr bullet with more than 10 jugs next time. Then I'll know for sure about how much it expands. I could hardly believe it went through all 10 of those jugs!

O.K., some of you are saying, "water is not animal skin and muscle and bone." That's true but that skin and muscle, on average is about 60% water. When a high-powered rifle with soft point bullets usually goes through only about 2-2 1/2 feet of water--that's pretty good resistance.

I'm off the main subject here but this relates to why the little 30-30 can penetrate so well for it's size. Not a lot of speed to cause a lot of expansion and especially so if you use a tough bullet. By the way, the Nosler Partition (170 gr) didn't do nearly as well as I thought it would. I welcome a tough 30-30 bullet suggestion from some of you.

Those heavy, long bullets--when driven at moderate speed--can really penetrate. I found the little .223 and .243 bullet--even FMJ just don't have the weight to penetrate like the big bullets. Too, I think their high speed causes more resistance by the water.

Don
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by Catshooter »

There is also quite a bit of bullet energy absorbed by the bullet itself when it expands.

If you want a bullet with lots of penatration, cast 'em. Cast out of linotype or some such will give little to no expansion and will drill.


Cat
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by Nath »

If it was not for cash and generally fed up of all the red tape over here in Britain I would go back to a 94 in 30wcf.

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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by JDL »

Sarge wrote:I think the 30-30 would be a better heavy game or bear defense carbine if we could get proper bullets for the task. I always wanted to try a 180-190 flatnose FMJ. I see Hawk makes a 190 JSP and that Buffalo Bore loads it to about 2100 fps. Should be good stuff, albeit pricey pricey on both counts. Any of you fellers loading a similar cast bullet up warm?
Sarge, I tested the RCBS 30-180 FN (which drops from my mold 188 grains) into saturated newsprint. Muzzle velocity was 1786 fps, medium was 15 yards away and penetration was 17". To compare, a 180 grain Nosler from a .30'06's velocity of 2730 penetrated 16.75".
My new load for my .30-30s now pushes the same bullet 1970 fps but, I haven't tested penetration yet although I think it will suffice. :D
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by Sarge »

Thanks for the info, JDL. A good hardcast bullet is hard to argue with.

Fact is, we have a 16" Rossi .45 Colt that spits 335 SWCs a shade over 1350 fps. If I anticipated the need for a big, deep hole, that's close enough to the old Trapdoor carbine load's ballistics that I wouldn't feel nekkid.
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by t.r. »

Image

Image

This red stag never knew what hit him. Estimated live weight: 355 to 375 lbs. 30-30 is a KEEPER!!
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by bj94 »

I agree- it's great, and great fun too.

I ignored .30-30 for a long time, because there were other cartridges that we all thought were better. (I ignored .45 Colt for a long time for the same reason.)

Since I've discovered that .30-30 is a real fun cartridge. In a nice levergun with good receiver sight, it is great for mid-range plinking such as 100 yards or so. It's a lot more fun than bolt actions for that.
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by getitdone1 »

t.r.,

Great pictures. Thanks.

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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by rimrock »

I don't have a 30/30, but I think it's a worthy round to use. I remember being amazed at what Paco said on this site when he compared the 30/30 to .44Mag/.45C. What Griff said about unlearning stuff is so true. Middle of the road cartridges are the workhorses of hunting without all the punishing recoil. My T-4 is teaching me good about recoil.

Here's hat Paco said, in part at http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/ ... vergun.htm

"The neat thing about this method is you can take the down range velocities all the way out to your longest range and compare them with the down range velocities of other rounds, calibers and see the changes compared to each other. The 45 long Colt at 100 yards has slowed to 1600 FPS and the killing level has dropped to almost KS of 63 from 79. Where the 30-30 load has dropped to 1930FPS to a KS 46 from 53.4.....that should make a few yell ‘foul...can’t be’, but it is! And from my use of these 45 loads in the field for years on large game....I can tell you it is.....! As many gunwriters have stated over the years, a 44 mag or heavy loaded 45 long Colt fired from a rifle is more powerful than a 30-30 at 100 yards....actually they are more powerful than the great 30-30, at a lot further than 100 yards....."

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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by Sarge »

I like ol' Paco but there's a part of me that is always surprised, when folks buy into all this slide-rule calculus pertaining to common old cartridges like the 45 Colt, 45-70 and the 30-30.

I've always looked at it like this- do I want to put a 1/2" water-line sized hole through 3 or more feet of meat and bone, or do I want to blow a grapefruit-sized hole through a foot of it? Common sense tells us that one is often preferable to the other, for a specific task. Experience tells us that neither is 'wrong' because either hole, in the right place, will anchor anything on this continent.

If a man chooses his arms and ammo carefully, he is a good shot and he keeps his head about him, any of those three cartridges do just fine. If he is a careful handloader, it opens up a world of utility--and pure unadulterated FUN--with any of them.
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by BAGTIC »

Catshooter wrote:There is also quite a bit of bullet energy absorbed by the bullet itself when it expands.

If you want a bullet with lots of penatration, cast 'em. Cast out of linotype or some such will give little to no expansion and will drill.


Cat

The bullet doesn't absorb any energy. It has all the energy it will ever have when it first impacts. That energy is all transfered to the target. An expanded bullet has more drag and transfers energy to the target faster. When a bullet has transfered all of its energy it stops. Bullets that lose energy slowly travel further (penetrate deeper) than bullets that shed energy quickly.
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by w30wcf »

For me, the .30-30 is the most versatile cartridge that has ever been chambered in Winchester's '94 or Marlin's 1893,93, 36, or 336 rifles. Its factory cartridge offerings over the years have been suitable from small game ("Short Range" rounds - 100-117 gr. lead bullets @1000-1200 fps) to varmints (110 gr. hollow point @ 2,720 f.p.s.) and up to big game (180 gr. PETERS Belted Bullet @ 2,120 f.p.s.).

If one handloads, the true versatility of this great, historic cartridge can, once again, be replicated, just as in the days of yore, making it the most fuunnn cartridge I know. In addition, the .30-30's fast 10"-12" twist will allow bullets up to 220 grains to be used with good accuracy and down range performance.

Today, we have the 125 gr. Hollow point loading @2,550 f.p.s. for varmints on up to the Federal 170 gr. Nosler's for the tougher jobs. As for bigger game, like elk and moose, early Marlin catalogs recommended their .30-30 be used. Have they gotten tougher to kill in the last 100 years? It's not ideal for every situation, but it will do the job under the right circumstances as many people using this cartridge will attest. Even famed author and hunter, Jack O'Conner indicated that it would. :D

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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by oregon73 »

What I've always liked about the 30-30:

Always a lot of fun to shoot, and....

It could be all business when needed.

Plus, a Winchester 94 is just a nice gun to have around.

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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by Catshooter »

BAGTIC wrote:

The bullet doesn't absorb any energy. It has all the energy it will ever have when it first impacts.[/quote]


I agree with the second statement, but not your first. Expanding a bullet takes work (energy). Where does that energy come from? It doesn't come from the deer's shoulder. If you hold a .30-30 cartridge in your hand and push it up against your buddies shoulder, it doesn't expand. It sure can when you hit a deer with it a 2,000 fps though.

Think about it. :)


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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by Nath »

BAGTIC wrote:
Catshooter wrote:There is also quite a bit of bullet energy absorbed by the bullet itself when it expands.

If you want a bullet with lots of penatration, cast 'em. Cast out of linotype or some such will give little to no expansion and will drill.


Cat

The bullet doesn't absorb any energy. It has all the energy it will ever have when it first impacts. That energy is all transfered to the target. An expanded bullet has more drag and transfers energy to the target faster. When a bullet has transfered all of its energy it stops. Bullets that lose energy slowly travel further (penetrate deeper) than bullets that shed energy quickly.

Fact#1; it takes energy to change the shape of anything.

#2; some energy is converted to sound and heat.

#3; the energy is not transfered totally to the target, otherwise it would move at a proportional rate, otherwise a bullet hitting dirt with a 1000lbs energy should move a 1000lbs of dirt! I would like to see that!


30wcf rocks and it's nowt to do with its performance figures, thats for the marketing departments, fieldsmen and woodsmen know :wink:

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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by KirkD »

In general, I think folks tend to badly underestimate the capabilities of the old cartridges and badly overestimate the capabilities of the modern magnums. This past fall, I hunted with a fellow who was using a 7mm Mag. He shot a medium sized Whitetail buck at a range of about 25 yards, right through the heart. The buck took off like it wasn't hit, and the hunter was left thinking he'd missed. He went in the direction it had fled and found it almost 100 yards away in brush, deader than a doornail. I helped clean it. The heart was blown to rags. It wasn't even attached to anything, and its lower vitals looked like a bomb had gone off in there, yet that buck had tore 100 yards. Nothing against the 7mmMag. My point is that some animals drop right now when shot with a 44-40 and some run 100 yards when shot with a 375 H&H. The fall before last, a fellow shot a Moose through the vitals/chest and into the offside shoulder with his 375 H&H magnum using a 200 grain Barnes X bullet. It ran into the bush about 80 to 100 yards and he had to put two more 375 H&H rounds into it before it went down. All went through the vitals and all were recovered. Another fellow hunting with him was using a 44-40 with cast bullets. Same size Moose, same range. He put two rounds into his and took two steps and dropped. Only one bullet was covered under the offside hide. Interestingly, both the 44-40 and 375 H&H magnum had penetrated the same distance for reasons, I can't even guess at. One 44-40 bullet completely penetrated side to side, none of the 375 H&H Barnes bullets did. Another lesson here ...... stories can prove just about anything. Sample size matters.

Before anyone thinks I'm arguing that the 44-40 is more powerful than the 375 H&H, let me say, 'absolutely not ..... not even close'. My point is that some animals go down right now with a weak cartridge and others run with a powerful one.

Back to the 30-30. If I had to run and could only take one rifle with me, it would be 'Old Savage' my little 30-30 carbine. It is light, short and fast. I also have a Browning SRC 45-70 but I think I'd give the nod to my 30-30 due to it being lighter and it racks the cartridges in and out slightly faster than my beefier 45-70 SRC.

The 30-30 and Grizz charges. I would not hunt Grizzlies on purpose with a 30-30. I'd use one of my 45-70's for the job. But if a fellow is charged, and I've read a lot of actual accounts of charges, it is fast and close, with only 2 or 3 seconds before it hits you, so a) you only have time for one shot and b) it will be front-on. There is only one way you will stop a Grizz in a full on charge and that is with a bullet through the brain. You could go for the upper spine, but it will be hard in a front on charge. I would hold my one shot until the last second and put it right between the eyes. As Jack O'Conner mentioned re. an eskimo in one of his books which I read years ago, a .22 rimfire will go into the brain of a Grizzley with a front shot between the eyes and it has been done several times. If that is the case, then a 30-30 will do just as well as a 50 BMG or a 22 rimfire.
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by madman4570 »

Kirk, The 44-40 isnt nearly as powerful as a 7MM Mag either(not even close)
Sure there is that one animal that just runs (with a blown up heart and everything in between)
What I will say for a fact(my dealings)having shot close to 100 deer,roughly 20 were shot with a .35 Rem and 25 were shot with a 7MM Mag and the results were not even close.The farthest I have ever had a deer run after being popped with a 7MM Mag is 10 yards.(most dropped right there)not even close with the .35Rem most deer ran at least 50 yards and some much farther.
The remaining 55 were taken mostly with a 12ga(sure some ran about like the .35 Rem.
The remaining were taken with 30-06 and the .243 (30-06 killed them better than the later)

Honestly,unless someone has some black magic recipe of special powder this also applies to the 25-20, 32-20,
38-40 as being inferior deer cartridges as well.
The deer deserve more respect and proper weapons should be used.(one also could try a 30 carbine too? or a blowgun)
I had a 32-20 long time ago and gave it to my cousin cause it was beyond being anemic.(anything more than soda cans?)
Got the .35 Remington and it felt/performed like a .460 Weatherby in comparison.
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by KirkD »

Of course, we would all agree that the 30-30 and the 44-40 does not have anything remotely near the muzzle energy of the 7mm Mag or the 375 H&H magnum. Most of us would agree as well that the 25-20 and the 32-20 are not likely to be a good choice for deer. The 38-40 might cause more of an argument, since it can be loaded up to 30-30 ballistics. In general, I think we would also agree that the more destruction wreaked upon an animal, the sooner it will fall over. The 7mm Mag will destroy more of a deer (meat and vitals) than even a 45-70, at least based on my own observations. A 50 BMG would show even more 'respect'. The question is how much destruction is necessary before we show 'respect' to an animal? 10% vaporized? 65% pink mist? I suppose there is no upper limit to firepower we could use on an animal, but I do think there is a lower threshold for clean, consistent kills.

Back to the 30-30 and a Grizz.
Given that a 30-30 will enter the front of one of the largest Grizzly skulls ever killed and exit out the back, and given that even a 22 rimfire shot between the eyes of several Grizzlies will enter and kill, as Jack O'Conner mentioned, if I had a Grizzly explode out of the thick Alders 10 yards away, with only 1.5 seconds to get my rifle into position, rack in a cartridge, acquire a sight picture and pull the trigger and I had my choice of guns, I would choose my 30-30 carbine with iron sights. If I was in an area where I would have a bit more warning, say 4 seconds or more, I would probably choose my slightly-slower-to-rack .45-70 SRC (if only for the reason that if I was too far either side of the brain, I just might break one of its shoulders, which would give me time maybe for a second shot). I pray I would never have a scope on my rifle for a situation at that close range where I probably have 1/4 second to acquire the sight picture, and fire. However, I would not hunt Grizzlies on purpose with my 30-30, for that is an entirely different scenario involving longer ranges, more time, and shots into the shoulders and vitals.

I suppose I might be playing the Advocate for the Opposition here a bit, but I do believe the 30-30 is unfairly underrated in these days where everyone thinks they need a magnum to show respect to the animal.
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by getitdone1 »

KirkD and madman4570,

Outstanding comments from both of you.

About 3 years ago I had a friend here and we were shooting at the gallon plastic water jugs I've mentioned here several times. He had a 7mm Mag and it was very impressive on those jugs! I'm a fan of the 7mm Mag (about every cartridge, in fact) and about 40 years ago I was a big fan and had one. Remington model 700 ADL which has no floorplate and that's fine with me. It is a real killer but I've read of failures with it and every other cartridge I can think of. Strange things happen. As you guys know, if the game is not alerted they'll usually be easier to kill than when they get their adrenalin flowing.

Would it be possible that the best solution would be to use nothing but Nosler Partitions for hunting? After all the years since this bullet hit the scene (1948 I believe) is there a better all-around bullet for any game animal other than varmits? It prevents excessive expansion and helps ensure good penetration. I don't know, but would it prevent excessive meat damage with the fast cartridges on all edible game? I say this and yet know there's a lot of other very good bullets but could the Partition still be the best for all-around use? They're more expensive then many but not enough to matter if they are still the best. Anyone here have bad luck hunting with Nosler Partition bullets?

Is it possible that the tremendous shock of the fast, powerful cartridges that usually makes them drop instantly can sometimes "shock them into" running off when they should have dropped immediately? Usually it's a heart/lung shot which leaves the brain/CNS good to go---well, maybe sometimes. Just a wild thought.

Don
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by win38-55 »

I have lots of different calibers I can shoot/hunt with. But my go to deer rifle
is a Marlin 336ss. With a Leopold VX3 3x9x40 scope. This gun is very very very accurate with this setup.
The last deer I shot with it died right where I shot him at. Not one step more.
If I had to get rid of all my guns but 1. This would be the 1. It is a real nice rifle.
Light to carry and plenty of punch for anything I will ever shoot at.
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by madman4570 »

Don/Kirk----------Good points from both of you guys.

First of all let me apologize telling anyone actually what and what not someone should use if its a legal firearm for that game.
I am certainly no expert and sometimes my fingers run off faster than my brain :oops:

No doubt the 30-30 has taken many(probably the most) animals in NA
It also does indeed have a greatness with being able to shoot factory loadings very reasonable.Besides those little levers are hard to beat in the carry department.

Don, I think those Nosler Partition are fantastic and have been very impressed how they perform.
Is there something better?? Probably 86er might give some advice on this cause I honestly don't know for sure.

Again, if its a gun and it shoots well I pretty much will like it.
I kinda was out of line mentioning those fine old cartridges not being up to par cause I got OT
Also, the monetary value of those guns I am sure far exceeds my magnums,so who is to say.
Its all about learning things on here,and I certainly have my share to learn.
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by Don McDowell »

The 30-30 will kill bigger,further and faster than all the folks that have never used one can even imagine. It has never went out of production since it's first introduction and likely never will (contrast that to several cartridges of the same age and older and even more impressive than a number of whizbangs that are 1/4 the 30wcfs' age)
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by getitdone1 »

You guys keep mentioning and showing pictures of the Marlin 336, 30-30 and I might have to get another one for a more fair comparison with the model 94/64 Winchesters than I've given it in the past. They have proven themselves just as well as the Winchesters. The next one would definitely have a straight grip and lever. I also had one in 44 mag. Believe they called it the Texan. (1963-67) I thought it kicked a lot at the time--long ago--but since then I've adjusted to a lot more recoil than that. Come to think of it though a Marlin 1895 45-70 with factory recoil pad was definitely more pleasant to shoot. That too was an outstanding gun and it might be just as good as my Browning 1886. They are both tops. I can really see why a lot of guys like those Marlin Guide guns with short barrels and a lot of power.

I did have one Marlin that didn't prove-out. Model 1894 in 357 mag with 18-18 1/2" bbl. Reliability issue and got rid of it pretty quick. It was sure small, light and handy and expect most people have had good luck with this gun.

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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by Retro »

Buddy of mine hunts springbok with a 308 and factory ammo, at sub 100 yards. They go right down, but most of the time he loses almost a quarter animal to meat damage.

We're now working up a load that's a few hundred fps slower, basically... a 30-30 :-)

You don't want to make the animal suffer, but you do want the majority of the animal ending up in the 'fridge...
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by Nath »

Yeah, I know someone who uses a 7mmRM, I ain't ever seen a deer run as far with one of my 30wcf's as I have from the 7mm mag. Not allways, the ones that dropped and the ones that didn't go far were pretty much the same as my 30wcf's so the 7mmRM isn't a bad round s'pose

Kirk is spot on with the notion how folk forget what seems mediocre performance today is useless, nothing is useless, I mean some folks still use arrows, the poor devils :lol:

I only own one CF rifle now and it's borrin' Rem SPS tac in 308, heck I miss my 94. I could tote it easy, shoot small game, shoot large game, shoot running game and just enjoy a walk with it, not the Rem, no sir, borin'!

I hate 30wcf threads :cry:


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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by Canuck Bob »

In regards to killing power there are some very influential and experienced folks that would say a 44 cal large meplat bullet not pushed too hard is a superior killer. Certainly the LBT, Beartooth, and cast bullet folks will often make this argument.

My 444 at long range is a mid level 44 Magnum but it drops big animals. I've seen it over and over. I think it has to do with the way the animal bleeds and the resulting loss of blood pressure. My 7MM Mag was a fine long range rifle but I didn't note any better knock down at range using 175 Nosler Partitions which performed flawlessly with much greater delivred energy. Up close the high velocity stuff ruins far too much meat for my tastes.

I'm soon getting my 94 32 Special because I am confident it is all the 30 caliber sized rifle I need for my uses, which is perhaps the handiest class of deer rifle, a 94 or 336, ever made.
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by Tumbleweeds II »

One reason the .30-30 works so well is, it is too slow to create that shock wave through the tissue and blow your meat to blood burger. According to Boothroyd and some others, the shock wave effect happens when the bullet arrives at 2500 fps or more. So, you can shoot a deer in the shoulder with a .30-30 and break the shoulder. He drops on the spot, and you can eat right up to the hole.

I have seen people denigrate the .30-30 because they used it for "boiler room" shots that would have been great with a .243, but left the deer on the run and bleeding relatively slowly after being hit by the .30-30. Shot placement is the most important thing, and you need to remember what weapon you're using and place your shot accordingly. When I'm using the .54 in ML season, I'm taking shoulder shots. Ditto when I'm using the .300 Savage with 180 gr. bullets.
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by Nath »

Tumbleweeds II wrote:One reason the .30-30 works so well is, it is too slow to create that shock wave through the tissue and blow your meat to blood burger. According to Boothroyd and some others, the shock wave effect happens when the bullet arrives at 2500 fps or more. So, you can shoot a deer in the shoulder with a .30-30 and break the shoulder. He drops on the spot, and you can eat right up to the hole.

I have seen people denigrate the .30-30 because they used it for "boiler room" shots that would have been great with a .243, but left the deer on the run and bleeding relatively slowly after being hit by the .30-30. Shot placement is the most important thing, and you need to remember what weapon you're using and place your shot accordingly. When I'm using the .54 in ML season, I'm taking shoulder shots. Ditto when I'm using the .300 Savage with 180 gr. bullets.

Hmmm, 2500fps hey, hmmmm. Not 2499fps then! Just how do these folks come to these notions?

I think a shockwave is in front of any bullet, short of nicking a bleeder thats how they cause bleedin' in the first place, no?

Our deer need a whoping 1700 ft/lbs according to our legislators, 1699ft/lbs won't do it :roll:


I shot them all places with my 30/30, not one run more than 30yds.

I think the more a bullet has the more it is soon stopped if it is an expanding type.

My humble tests with mother earth with a 30/30 and a 308wcf resulted in no greater penertration from the 308wcf into mother earth worth a doodle.

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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by AJMD429 »

Tumbleweeds II wrote:One reason the .30-30 works so well is, it is too slow to create that shock wave through the tissue and blow your meat to blood burger. According to Boothroyd and some others, the shock wave effect happens when the bullet arrives at 2500 fps or more.
Interesting; I always figured it would be the biggest effect at the speed of sound, but maybe it's the speed of sound in tissue, or maybe the 1500 fps .44 Mags or whatever are slowing down to subsonic before they penetrate much.
Nath wrote:Our deer need a whopping 1700 ft/lbs according to our legislators, 1699ft/lbs won't do it :roll:
Pretty much any time the 'government' wants to tell the rest of us how to do something, they have it backwards...
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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by BAGTIC »

Nath wrote:
BAGTIC wrote:
Catshooter wrote:There is also quite a bit of bullet energy absorbed by the bullet itself when it expands.

If you want a bullet with lots of penatration, cast 'em. Cast out of linotype or some such will give little to no expansion and will drill.


Cat

The bullet doesn't absorb any energy. It has all the energy it will ever have when it first impacts. That energy is all transfered to the target. An expanded bullet has more drag and transfers energy to the target faster. When a bullet has transfered all of its energy it stops. Bullets that lose energy slowly travel further (penetrate deeper) than bullets that shed energy quickly.

Fact#1; it takes energy to change the shape of anything.

#2; some energy is converted to sound and heat.
Some thermal energy from the heated bullet is radiated into the surrounding air/space and some thermal energy created by friction is absorbed by the bullet. The amount is so trivial as to be inconsequential. More energy is lost by drag enroute to the target than anywhere else. Once the bullet has entered the target all the energy it loses is hence forward transferred to the target
The energy remains regardless of the form.

#3; the energy is not transfered totally to the target, otherwise it would move at a proportional rate, otherwise a bullet hitting dirt with a 1000lbs energy should move a 1000lbs of dirt! What happens when a bullet with 2000 fpe hits a 200 pound deer? Does it lift it 10 feet into the air? Of course not. If a bullet with 1000 fpe is fired into a 1000 pound weight hung from a pendulum it will move the pendulum. If you shoot the ground it will not necessarily move the earth, boulder, stumpetc. because the energy is transfered through the target into the backing substance. I would like to see that!


30wcf rocks and it's nowt to do with its performance figures, thats for the marketing departments, fieldsmen and woodsmen know :wink:

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Re: The 30-30--greater than I thought

Post by Nath »

BAGTIC wrote:
Nath wrote:
BAGTIC wrote:
Catshooter wrote:There is also quite a bit of bullet energy absorbed by the bullet itself when it expands.

If you want a bullet with lots of penatration, cast 'em. Cast out of linotype or some such will give little to no expansion and will drill.


Cat

The bullet doesn't absorb any energy. It has all the energy it will ever have when it first impacts. That energy is all transfered to the target. An expanded bullet has more drag and transfers energy to the target faster. When a bullet has transfered all of its energy it stops. Bullets that lose energy slowly travel further (penetrate deeper) than bullets that shed energy quickly.

Fact#1; it takes energy to change the shape of anything.

#2; some energy is converted to sound and heat.
Some thermal energy from the heated bullet is radiated into the surrounding air/space and some thermal energy created by friction is absorbed by the bullet. The amount is so trivial as to be inconsequential. More energy is lost by drag enroute to the target than anywhere else. Once the bullet has entered the target all the energy it loses is hence forward transferred to the target
The energy remains regardless of the form.

#3; the energy is not transfered totally to the target, otherwise it would move at a proportional rate, otherwise a bullet hitting dirt with a 1000lbs energy should move a 1000lbs of dirt! What happens when a bullet with 2000 fpe hits a 200 pound deer? Does it lift it 10 feet into the air? Of course not. If a bullet with 1000 fpe is fired into a 1000 pound weight hung from a pendulum it will move the pendulum. If you shoot the ground it will not necessarily move the earth, boulder, stumpetc. because the energy is transfered through the target into the backing substance. I would like to see that!


30wcf rocks and it's nowt to do with its performance figures, thats for the marketing departments, fieldsmen and woodsmen know :wink:

N.
N.
Nope, the target don't get all the energy, for instance when a bullet passes through just where does the bullet get the energy from to continue? Energy is not allways transferred forward in the target too, it sometimes turns back and/or sideways.

The noise of impact is substantial also, I have no idea how I could duplicate the noise of a critter being slammed from a bullet, to a critter with my bare hands!

A 1000lb pendulum would not move a foot by a 1000fpe bullet despite the mathe.

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uestion

Post by LeverBob »

Cat[/quote]"The bullet doesn't absorb any energy."

Question: then how does it stop? If it hasn't absorbed any energy, then how is it deformed? There must be an applied force to deform it.

There is Dynamic & Static energy. All matter holds energy. Matter is defined as anything that has weight & occupies space, whether it is moving or not. Movement adds energy & it takes energy to stop it. That is the principle of Inertia.

Inertia is defined as: An object in motion will stay in motion unless acted upon by an external force (& the opposite). For energy to be disapated, it requires an opposite energy.

Actually Sir Isaac (Newtonian Law) said that "for every action there is an equal & opposite reaction". No matter what matrix you shoot thru the old maxim holds true: the faster you go, the faster you stop. The slower you go (within reason), the slower you stop.

Linebaugh proved that practically in his penetration tests. So has Peter Garrett in his tests.

LB
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