What is the 30-30 Trapper load Hobie reproduced?

[MacEntyre]

Last year, or the year before, I remember Hobie took apart an old Peters cartridge that was a 30-30 light load used by trappers, something like an 85 grain bullet, with the unique property that it had the same velocity as a full power 30-30 load, so a gun sighted for full power loads would be sighted for the light load as well.

Hobie, would you share that with us again? What bullets are available that work for a light load that matches the velocity of full power loads?

I need to get a chrono bad...

[Hobie]

It is the Sierra 85 gr. .308" pistol bullet over 27 gr. of IMR 3031. Ideally it should be a FMJ but I think they are only producing the SP now.

[JReed]

Cool what is the speed on that little beauty. That bullet is intended for the .30 carbine corect?

[w30wcf]

The PETERS .30-30 Trapper cartridge clocked in the vicinity of 2,000 f.p.s.
In addition to the 27/3031 factory load, I have found that 18/4759 will replicate it nicely.

Here's a pic of the original cartridge


w30wcf

[Terry Murbach]

AND IT IS CLAIMED AN 85fr BULLET AT 2000fps FROM A 30-30 RIFLE OR CARBINE WILL IMPACT IN THE SAME PLACE AS A 170gr [ OR 150gr... ] BULLET FROM THE SAME RIFLE OR CARBINE ???
Hmmmmmmmm.........REALLY.....

[w30wcf]

Terry,
Yes, pretty close. I have tested it at 50 yards against a standard 170 gr. factory load and it impacted within 1 1/2" of that.

w30wcf

[jimincolo]

The 85 gr. Sierra bullet is probably meant for use in CZ and Russian handguns chambered in .30 Mauser.

Is the bullet sufficiently blunt for safe use in a tubular magazine? Also, Hornady makes a similiar bullet weighing 86 grains. They advertise that has a heavy jacket, & is designed for use in high velocity applications. It also has a cannalure.

[Hobie]

AND IT IS CLAIMED AN 85fr BULLET AT 2000fps FROM A 30-30 RIFLE OR CARBINE WILL IMPACT IN THE SAME PLACE AS A 170gr [ OR 150gr... ] BULLET FROM THE SAME RIFLE OR CARBINE ???
Hmmmmmmmm.........REALLY.....

Not at all ranges but at 25-50 yards it is close enough to use as a small game/trapper's load, it really is. Not so much at 100 yards from my rifles.

The bullet is the one intended for use in EITHER the 7.62x25 or .30 Luger. I've been thinking about breaking down some relatively cheap 7.62x25 surplus just to get the bullets for this load. The FMJ will behave much better in game than the SP.

[John in MS]

"The bullet is the one intended for use in EITHER the 7.62x25 or .30 Luger. I've been thinking about breaking down some relatively cheap 7.62x25 surplus just to get the bullets for this load. The FMJ will behave much better in game than the SP."


Hobie, you and I think alike! A friend got some of the steel-case, corrosive 7.62x25 ammo that is very cheap right now in quantity. I pulled a round and miked it -- 0.307" diameter. Should
probably work ok, but wanted you to know just in case you decide to pursue the project.
John

[Hobie]

I think I will. That stuff is cheaper than buying the darn Sierra bullets!

[Timothy]

When was the original trapper load offered? Thanks

[w30wcf]

Timothy,
It is felt they were made in the late 1920's - 1930' and possibly into the 1940's. They were not listed in any of the PETERS catalogs of that era since it was likely a custom loading. Interesting that PETERS took a bullet with 1/2 the weight of the standard 170 gr. and loaded it to about the same velocity.

w30wcf

[FF1063]

Is anyone getting those short cartridges to cycle in a Winchester 94?
My 'new to me' 94 doesn't like to cycle anything other than near to full length cartridges, and I'm not sure if that's normal or not for the Winchesters.

[Hobie]

"Short" cartridges? Works in my flatband 94 and in my 336.

[w30wcf]

"The bullet is the one intended for use in EITHER the 7.62x25 or .30 Luger. I've been thinking about breaking down some relatively cheap 7.62x25 surplus just to get the bullets for this load. The FMJ will behave much better in game than the SP."

Hobie, you and I think alike! A friend got some of the steel-case, corrosive 7.62x25 ammo that is very cheap right now in quantity. I pulled a round and miked it -- 0.307" diameter. Should
probably work ok, but wanted you to know just in case you decide to pursue the project.
John

John,
I have dissected 7.62x25 cartridges (probably close to 150 by now) of different makes and, as you mentioned, the bullets run about .307". I have found that they shoot aok in my .30-30 rifles with tighter bores (.307-.308) but don't do as well in rifles that are closer to .309". l did find that if I put a .060" poly wad under the bullet for use in the larger bores they shot much better.

I have also dissected .30 Mauser cartridges (hard to find these days) and those bullets measured .308" as did the special run Hornady 86 gr. FMJ (discontinued) of several years ago. Both shot aok in all my .30-30's.



w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Is anyone getting those short cartridges to cycle in a Winchester 94?
My 'new to me' 94 doesn't like to cycle anything other than near to full length cartridges, and I'm not sure if that's normal or not for the Winchesters.

FF1063,
Yes, as Hobie indicated, they cycle fine through my 94's as well.

w30wcf

[Malamute]

You fellas may want to try the Remington bulk 32 auto bullets for light loads. I've shot 32 auto factory ammo in the 30-30 with chamber adapters, and they shoot well. I bought some of the bulk bullets to try loaded in 30-30 cases, tho I havent gotten any loaded so far. They are .311" and are about 77 grs, FMJ. I was going to load them very light, around 800-1100 fps, but they may work alright at the higher velocities you guys are looking at.

When looking at the bulk Remingto bullets listing in various suppliers, the pistol and rifle bullets are mixed up, so look in both sections to see if they are carried by your supplier of choice.

[Hobie]

I wanted to duplicate the "trapper" load hence the use of that weight of bullet.

[junkwrencher]

http://home.comcast.net/~parslowb/labels/Reloading.html Try this link.I found it absolutely wonderfull!I've researched this subject also but haven't duplicated the loads.It gives .357/.38/.32-20 etc. versatility to the .30WCF.Link is dead, it was Hobie's blog.Try this by John Kort: http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=2202

img_1961 small.jpg

I want to once again thank John and Hobie for their work and love of our history and heritage.Its' funny to me in this ultra-mag age that we are down-loading the .30WCF because its' just too much gun for some situations.If we look at Remingtons' managed recoil loads they are compared to the .30-30 Winchester chambering because as Paco has stated it is a flat-faced killer.........If you're interested in this stuff make a hard-copy, a disk or CD with this information.The attachment was made from a picture of a paper copy I made from Hobie's blog some years ago.The John Kort information is still available and I also have a paper copy of it.

[Malamute]

I wanted to duplicate the "trapper" load hence the use of that weight of bullet.

Yes, I understand. I just brought it up as it seemed a bit less complicated than buying loaded ammo to break down for the bullets, if someone wanted to still follow the general idea. The bulk 32 bullets are pretty cheap compared to most jacketed bullets last I saw them.

[w30wcf]

junkwrencher,
Thank you for the kind words and the references.

Here's the original post from 2006

An interesting .30-30 cartridge used back in the 1930’s-1940’s by Trappers in the north country



Legend has it that these special .30-30 cartridges were loaded by the PETERS Cartridge Company for the Hudson Bay Trading Co. located in the Yukon and possibly the T. Eaton Company in Alberta, Canada.

It was loaded with a full patch 85 gr. bullet that was used in the .30 Mauser pistol cartridge. One trapper, recounting his adventures of long ago, said that he had used the .30-30 cartridges with the little nickel jacketed bullet and found that they were great for dispatching Wolverines and Wolves in traps and for shooting wolves on the ice in the winter and beavers in the spring.

The question then was, what velocity did PETERS load this cartridge to? John had one example of this cartridge in his collection and donated the powder charge from it to me for testing purposes.

Several years ago Hornady made a run of 86 Gr. full patched .30 Mauser bullets for The Old Western Scrounger. I purchased a box to run some tests. I loaded one of these bullets over the powder charge that John had sent to me and it clocked just over 2,000 f.p.s.

I then loaded 10 rounds using the Hornady 86 gr. bullet with 27.0 grs. of 3031, which appeared to be the same type powder. (The powder sample could well have been DuPont 17 1/2 the predicessor to 3031.) When tested, they produced pretty much the same velocity.

Accuracy at 50 yards was very good with groups of around 3/4" if I did my part. Further testing indicated that 170 gr bullets loaded over 30/3031 impacted within 1 1/2" of the 86 gr. bullet.

Hunters / trappers could use both cartridges without having to change their sights. PETERS knew what they were doing when they offered a .30-30 catridge with a bullet that was ½ the weight of the standard 170 gr. and loaded it to the same velocity.....60+ years ago.

w30wcf

addendum:
In developing this special cartridge, PETERS intent was to produce a .30-30 round which could be used for the purpose described above and that could be used interchangeably with the standard .30-30 170 gr. for big game when it was encountered. In addition, it would produce almost no recoil.

This historic, special, PETERS 85 gr. cartridge added a new dimension of usefulness to the .30-30, making it an even more versatile tool in the hands of the outdoorsman.

[O.S.O.K.]

Why not cast boolits?



Lee 6-Cavity Bullet Mold 311-93-1R 32-20 WCF, 32 S&W Long, 32 Colt (311 Diameter) 93 Grain 1 Ogive Radius

Size to .310" and lube with LLA - double dip and you'd be ready to go IMHO. Note the flat nose too.

Better answer I think - and a lot less $$.

[w30wcf]

O.S.O.K.
Good question. A cast bullet could be used but at 2,000 f.p.s. it would need to be gas checked. Plain based bullets are fine for up to around 1,500 f.p.s. but accuracy deteriorates pretty rapidly above that. I know because I have tried.....

HOWEVER, By adding a .06" thick polyethylene wad to act as a seperate gas check at the base of a plain based bullet, one can get decent accuracy @ 2,000 f.p.s. I know, because I tried that too.....

w30wcf

[Hobie]

One can approach the problem in varying ways, this was just one approach.