Some thoughts on shooting with iron sights

[KirkD]

This week I took a good friend of mine, who lives a long ways away, shooting at the range. He has hunted all his life. Over the past 40 years or so, he has used a scoped rifle and taken a lot of game with that rifle, including Moose, many Elk, deer and bear. Having hunted with that same rifle for so many years, he has become very good with it.

This week at the range, I introduced him to four of my old rifles, a Springfield Model 1888, an original Winchester Model 1876, an original Winchester Model 1873 and an old Winchester Model 1894. All four were well over 100 years old and all of them had iron sights.

Only once or twice in the past 8 years have I ever seen another person using iron sights at my range, and I have not shot with anyone who is proficient with these old guns, so I had no idea what is normal. I was very surprised at how difficult it was for my friend to get anything resembling a group, given how consistently good he is with his scoped rifle of 40 years running. For him, it was a whole different kind of shooting. To my amazement, I was able to shoot significantly better offhand at 100 yards than he was able to shoot from a rest with the same rifle. He asked me if I had ever considered competing, but I was embarrassed at the suggestion and told him no and I never would want to. I don't consider myself anything more than a half-decent shot. Rather, I'm sure it was his 40 some years away from the good old iron sights that made such a contrast between our targets.

I think he's hooked now and I'm sure he will see rapid improvement as he practices with an old iron sighted Model 1894 over the next few months. All this got me to thinking as I was reading on another forum some posts by fellows who were discussing what were the best scoped rifles, etc. What I am thinking is that shooting old guns with iron sights must be a whole different world of shooting that I think a lot of fellows would enjoy if they decided to really get half decent at it. Judging from my good friend, who is normally very good with his scoped, flat shooting rifle, shooting with iron sights is a more challenging sport that many might find even more enjoyable and satisfying than shooting with a scope, once they get half decent at it. In a forum like this, probably most of us shoot with iron sights but for you fellows who have been letting your iron sighted guns gather dust, or maybe don't even have an iron sighted gun, I'd encourage you to dust it off and commit yourself to becoming very good with it over the next year or so. Getting half-decent with iron sights at 100 or 200 yards can provide a lot of enjoyment.

[20cows]

I like it!

[J Miller]

I have only one rifle with a scope. It wears that scope only because it has no iron sights. I've never shot a round through it.

Joe

[BenT]

I agree with you Kirk. I did some shooting with the neighbors about 5 years ago. They were amazed that I was hitting milk jugs at 150 yards consistantly off hand with iron sights. Alot of them were having problems hitting anything at that distance with scopes. I still hear them talk about how good a shot I am. I don't think of myself as that good of a shot. I just understand how to use iron sights.

[Chas.]

I have never owned a scope. That's cheating.

[AJMD429]

I prefer scopes for only two types of shooting:

• Dawn or Dusk in the woods (i.e. whitetail hunting), due to the better 'light gathering' effect. I can see better through my scope than with plain eyes, let alone through any apertures, etc.
  
  Precision benchrest (not the 'real' sport, but my backyard version - trying to see if I can get sub-moa groups or first-shot hits on inch or smaller targets I simply could not SEE without magnification, regardless of sight type.

Other than those specific instances, I prefer iron sights (well, actually some of my favorite peep sights are aluminum... )

[geobru]

I had a similar experience when I took a younger friend out and let him shoot my 40-82. Since I started shooting the last few years with older guns and open sigts, I have gotten used to shooting with a fuzzy sight picture, and even though it ain't what it once was, I can do OK in spite of my old eyes. My friend wasn't used to shooting with open sights and my group was less than half the size of his group, even though he has "young" eyes. Shooting with irons does require practice, and as with most things, practice makes perfect.

[Lefty Dude]

I have been shooting Iron's for years on my Rifles.

Last year I bought a Handi Rifle in 44 mag. with irons. Sent it to H&R for a .308 barrel fitting. I had them install Irons on the barrel fore & aft. I also came with a scope rail attached.

I sighted it in with the Iron and then installed a scope. It just never felt right. This past week I removed the scope and the factory irons. In the place I installed a WGRS Williams on the rear. Then did the proper measurements for the front sight ramp, on the ramp it now wears a 1/16" Williams fire sight.

I am now pleased with the results and can't wait to get it to the range.

[Stan in SC]

I collect military rifles and shoot them a lot.I shoot iron sights much more often than I do a scope and I find it very satisfying to do so.

Stan in SC

[RIHMFIRE]

I use and enjoy both..
but i shoot iron sights most of the time...
I have noticed at our range that the levergun guys or
open sight shooters are much more disciplined
and are much better shots..

[86er]

Great post! I started shooting rifles when I was 10 yrs old. My Dad and Uncle gave me .22 RF rifles with open sights and took me to shoot them every Saturday morning. After two year and earning NRA Expert in smallbore they gave me a scope sighted .22RF. However, it was not a free-for-all with the scope. The deal was I had to advance through the NRA Light Rifle Smallbore course that allows the use of a scope, while simultaneously shooting for Distinguished Expert with the open sighted rifles. The "open sights" I had were quite varied. I used plain ol' notch rear and blade front, to rear peep and front bead, to serious competition target sights with an adjustable peep rear and globe front with inserts. I was 13 when I accomplished Expert with the Light Rifle Smallbore (scoped rifle), and I finished Distinguished Expert with an Anshultz and Eley match ammo. I advanced to Long Range and the DCM course firing a O3A3 and a Garand with issued sights. It was not until I advanced in those courses that they finally 1) let me shoot a scoped rifle at targets and plinking, and 2) taught me to shoot a shotgun. To get to the real point, I had a couple of friends that learned to shoot air rifles and .22's with a scope right off the bat. To this day they are not skilled with open sights nor do they appreciate shooting with them. Recently, I saw that two of these friends gave their kids rifles with scopes on them. I guess the scope tradition continues in their families. Personally, I made it a point to teach my boys to use sights. They have a rifle with V notch rear and bead front and another rifle with a peep rear and blade front. They have both been allowed to shoot a scoped rifle two times each. The lesson there was that they didn't shoot any better and right now they are convinced they don't need a scope and it is too heavy and too much to worry about to bother with. Outdoor television doesn't help. Every show on TV pretty much features scoped guns. My boys see that and sometimes ask if they can try a scope again. I tell them the person on TV isn't a good shot and didn't want to embarrass themself in front of the camera by missing. That seems to convince them that they are doing it right with iron sights, for now. Any time I know I will be shooting game in lighted conditions (like deer just about anywhere) and the range will be 100 yds give or take I actually prefer an open sighted gun. There is just something more enjoyable about getting back to the basics and it seems more satisfying to get one with a simple rifle with sights. I hope your friend picks up the habit and enjoys it. Good for you for getting him on the right track with it.

[Ysabel Kid]

Bingo!

Starting a young shooter off with a .22 RF bolt-action rifle with only iron sights builds a foundation for good shooting skills for their entire life. It's an investment!

[AmBraCol]

I started off with open sights myself. An old Daisy 880 was worn out, rebuilt and worn out again and I learned to hit whatever I could see with that old gun. But I never reached the level of proficiency that my Dad had. He grew up with open sights as well and up to the time he died, whenever he picked up a rifle he tended to hit what he pointed it at. A couple years ago I picked up a Gamo CFX and a big ol' scope for it. I shot it at 50 meters, but never seemed to do much good with it. So I added a Mendoza rear peep and a locally built front pin sight (one off, custom job) and now I can do OK with it. Don't get to the range often enough to maintain proficiency, but often enough to keep a step or two ahead of the rest of the guys. One thing I miss here in the heart of Coffee Country is the dusty ground we had during dry season when I was a kid. You could shoot at pebbles and sticks way out yonder and see the pellet kick up dust. That gave you an idea of trajectory and the effect of follow through - or lack thereof. Here I'm pretty much stuck on paper, although at times I'll take balloons or other reactive targets with me if there's a kid along. Funny thing is, I can actually shoot my CFX better with the peep than I could with the 9X scope.

[hammerman]

My brother and I started off with an Iron sighted BB gun. I still use iron sights to this day. I don't even have a gun with a scope.

Now I see BB guns in the stores with scopes already on. If a kid can't see far enough for the range of a BB gun and hit the target with open sights, then I don't know what to tell them. Maybe eat more wheaties.

I did have a chance to shoot a scoped gun just recently (which I haven't done in 10 years), and it made things so easy. You can see every wobble you make, making it almost impossible to flinch. The exaggerated wobble sure makes you squeeze that trigger even slower.

[KirkD]

... My boys see that and sometimes ask if they can try a scope again. I tell them the person on TV isn't a good shot and didn't want to embarrass themself in front of the camera by missing. ...

Great answer! I really don't have anything against scopes, and I know there are fellows on here who need them because of eyesight problems, and I sure don't want to make anyone feel bad about having to use a scope. But I'm thinking that a person never reaches his/her maximum shooting capabilities until one has trained oneself to be good with iron sights.

[AmBraCol]

... My boys see that and sometimes ask if they can try a scope again. I tell them the person on TV isn't a good shot and didn't want to embarrass themself in front of the camera by missing. ...

Great answer! I really don't have anything against scopes, and I know there are fellows on here who need them because of eyesight problems, and I sure don't want to make anyone feel bad about having to use a scope. But I'm thinking that a person never reaches his/her maximum shooting capabilities until one has trained oneself to be good with iron sights.

Just like driving - if you HAVE to use an autotransmission, then fine. But folks should learn to drive a manual shift first. I made the mistake of letting my wife learn to drive a semiauto scooter first. Now she's afraid to try a motorcycle with a clutch. The scooter has one - it's just actuated by the shift pedal. The same thing happens with scopes. Folks get too dependent on them from the beginning and are afraid to try shooting without them.

[rangerider7]

Out of all my guns, over fifty, 2 have scopes. They are used for predators. I still don't take them that often because I like hunting the way I did as a youngster, with iron sights. Sometimes when the coyote will not come in I use a 22-250 with a 2.5 by 20 scope or a 223 Bushmaster Predator with a 3 by 9 Leupold. The most enjoyment I have is hunting with the old Winchesters and Colt SAAs. Taking a coyote with an old Colt SAA is very satisfying to me. Dove hunting with my Model 12s and 42 Winchesters is also a lot of fun.

[gamekeeper]

I have never got on with scopes, guess I haven't really given them much of a chance as I have always preferred iron sights.
My son has carrying handles on both his rifles but being bolt actions they look alright and he does hit what he aims at, most of the time.
He can still shoot with iron sights 'cause that's what I taught him to use.
My old eyes are pathetic compared to when I was younger but I'm still holding on to my irons.

However, I'm thinking of red dot or laser sight for my Henry AR7 just for close range night time varmints.

[Charles]

When I was a kid growing up and every boy had a 22 rifle, there was not a scope to be seen. Never heard of a scope on a 22! What few scopes there were rested on top of some geezer's deer rifle.

When we grew up and moved passed the 30-30 saddle gun to 270 or 30-06 we moved up to a scope. The basics of rifle craft was learned by everybody with iron sights either barrel or receiver mounted.

Times have changed.

[jimincolo]

I have recently removed scopes from several of my hunting rifles. they have been replaced with either the original irons or receiver sights. Your awareness of game reaction & location after the shot is so much better without a scope. I have found that with a little practice, I am easily "minute of deer & elk to 200 yards"

Jim

[Lefty Dude]

Most of the young shooters would not know what to do if the rifle had both Iron & scope sights, and the scope failed during a hunting outing.

[JerryB]

Kirk, this is an excellent topic. I was taught by my dad at early age how to use open iron sights. Later when I graduated from high school my Uncle Sam taught me to use the iron sights on the Grand old M1 Garand. I taught all my kids and so far all the grandkids that shoot to use open iron sights. So far I have not needed a scope for rifle shooting and at a month shy of 72 I don't reckon I'll start now. I thank my Lord for this blessing!!

[Griff]

Sights? As in PLURAL? I shoot a little, like every once in a while. At relatively short distances for speed and accuracy. I rarely, if ever, see my rear sight. When that front sight crosses the target, squeeze trigger. I don't recall every looking for the rear sight unless I'm shooting specifically for a group size. I'm sure that the rear sight is there, but I'm never looking for it. Basically for my style shooting, I am sighting just as though my rifle and sixguns were shotguns... I wanna see a portion of the barrel and that front sight. The result is "bang...clang", bang...clang" and so on. What else is there?

I doubt another shooter could pick up my guns and hit the broad side of a barn with 'em. But I can, and that's what matters.

[Dave]

It is a shame so many young people never use iron sights now. I know guys who have never shot iron. A scope makes a gun top heavy, awkward to carry, and much more fragile than an iron sighted gun. An iron sighted gun is a simple pleasure. Most hunting shots are well within iron sight range. I grew up with an unscoped Winchester 62 and bagged a huge amount of small game, feral dogs, and even some fish with it. My eyes are not as good now and if I pull the front sight down into the rear notch of a semi-buckhorn it will disappear on me if I am in the shade. I can still use them on a sunny range though. Despite that I am still fine with peep sights.

Peeps are about scope accurate. Something is lost if a man can't shoot iron. My daughter found out when she used a borrowed gun to squirrel hunt that was scoped she often couldn't get the squirrel in the scope before he vanished. Her gun now has peeps on it.

[2571]

I started out on a bp smoothbore that had only a front sight. Amazing what you could do with it.

Probem is, I somehow got old and lost my visual acuity. Gotta have a scope for deer hunting now even though I supsect using it is unmanly.

[Goat]

Maybe I'm just one of them young guys(42) but I like my scopes and will continue to use them when I hunt. There have been a lot of deer that were killed either very early or very late that I could not have taken with iron. I do not appologize for my scopes to anyone because they allow me to cleanly take game when I could not with iron. I have very limited time to hunt anymore and have to make the most of the opportunities given. I choose to hunt thickets and creekbottoms where the ranges are typically close but the deer seem to show up when the light is poor or in a place where I must "thread the needle" to make a killing shot. I started out like many here with a BB gun with iron sights. I even made my own peep sight for it when I read about how much easier they were to use. I progressed to a Benjamin 177cal air rifle that still sports a wide suare notch rear and slim post front sight. I killed a lot of birds with both. I cut lawns and purchased a Remington 552 Speedmaster 22 automatic rifle in the ninth grade. I used it with the factory irons until my senior year of high school when I scoped it. I did have another Daisy pellet rifle that was scoped for a couple of years in high school. My Dad had such a hard time with scopes that I spent a LOT of time mounting the gun to have the "target" in the crosshairs when it hit my shoulders. Soon I was able to mount the gun and keep a flying bird in the center of the scope. Because of that kind of practice early on in life I have never had trouble getting game in the scope whether moving or still.
I do have a friend that has put me to shooting iron on some of his guns and it has surprised me what can be done on the range when there is pleny of light. In fact I likely shot better with his tang/globe sighted 38/55 at 200yds than I could have with a scope on that windy day.
I respect the seeming majority of you that shoot iron and shoot them well. I have taken deer with iron sighted weapons and there was a sense of pride in doing so. For now, at least, I will hunt with a scope and if it fails go to the truck and get another scoped rifle.
Goat

[Streetstar]

-- I have to admit, i am a bit handicapped with iron sights. I recently dropped one of my 94's and the barrel mounted rear sight broke like it was made of ceramic though, so i suppose i will be trying a Marbles tang sight when i get around to ordering it (unless any of you fella's have a recommendation for a better tang sight)

i may try a Williams receiver sight on one of the Trappers, as they look very efficient, but are almost "space age" looking compared to the tang sights or an old Redfield peep.

A true buckhorn sight looks like it would be an improvement over the factory sights i have been trying to hit things with as well.

Admittedly the only thing i have that wears irons are the leverguns and a couple of the AR's. I like the simplicity of the old A1 style sight set on those, but my modern M4 clones wear optics, the Guide Gun has a "handle" on it now too, as do all the bolt guns, but i would like to have a short, handy, brush gun style bolt rifle with quality irons in something like a 7mm-08 or a 270 Short Mag. It would be in the spirit of the old Jungle Carbine

[Mike D.]

I am capable with both scoped bolt and single shot rifles, as well as iron sights. My Remington 700 wears a Swarovski 3 X 12 and the Browning 78 has a 2 X 7 Leupold that was purchased with the sightless octagon barreled rifle in 1978. Both guns have accounted for several deer and elk. That being said, all of my other guns, which are mostly lever action Winchesters, have some form of metallic sights. I enjoy shooting them all, regardless of the sights they have. It's like fishing; both fly and spinning rods work for me. I'm no "purist", just and equal opportunity hunter and fisherman.

[AJMD429]

My Dad had such a hard time with scopes that I spent a LOT of time mounting the gun to have the "target" in the crosshairs when it hit my shoulders. Soon I was able to mount the gun and keep a flying bird in the center of the scope. Because of that kind of practice early on in life I have never had trouble getting game in the scope whether moving or still.

Whatever sights you use, PRACTICE is definitely the key.

Kind of like shot placement trumps kinetic energy, practice trumps everything.

I may try a Williams receiver sight on one of the Trappers, as they look very efficient, but are almost "space age" looking compared to the tang sights or an old Redfield peep.

A true buckhorn sight looks like it would be an improvement over the factory sights i have been trying to hit things with as well.

Look at the Marble's Bullseye if you like a 'full buckhorn' style sight - it offers many of the same virtues.

First of all, it covers up way less of the downrange view than a normal "open" sight - see below (I shaded in what the rear sight had covered with the gun sighted in, using the same front sight).

The photo on the left really does show about what it looks like to look through the sight; a VERY fast 'ghost ring' effect from the easier to see large ring, but a 'ghostlier' inner ring which helps precision shooting if you have or take an extra second, AND the option of using the various inter-ring dimensions for 'Kentucky windage' or 'Texas holdover' like you can the buckhorns.



Secondly, the full buckhorns I've seen DO add the upper rounded area which gives the 'ghost ring' option along with the more precise 'notch', but it then not only covers what the open sight did, but the upper part is generally a bit thicker than the outer ring on the Marble's.

The only thing I dislike about the Marble's Bullseye's is that they are just like the original factory 'open' sights and many of the older 'buckhorn' sights, in that they are 'drift-adjustable' for windage, and have an 'elevation slider' for elevation. Sturdy, yes; reliable, yes; traditional, yes - but I really like a 'click' and reproduceable, calibrated adjustment like with the Williams FP peeps.

My next winter gun project is to affix a Marble's sight to a Williams FP base. . .

Marble's makes the Bullseye in long and short versions (the spring base length), and I believe two diameters, plus a fixed 'dovetail' one with no elevatioin adjustment.

[Old Savage]

Let me then be the contrarian. I did not shoot anything scoped until the age of 44. Qualifed expert with the M16, M14, Pistol, hand grenade and 81 mortar. I shot some sub inch groups at 100 with irons and the 600 pig offhand with my 98/8mm with the Levergun boys this summer but, I like shooting scopes better because I can see the target better, brighter and bigger.

[dr walker]

Great topic Kirk,
I grew up shooting a BB gun with open sights. We would shoot almost everyday. When I progressed to larger rifles I almost exclusively used scopes. I continued to use scoped rifles until about 10 years ago. I started shooting with friends who competed with metallic sighted rifles I quickly found out how precise you could be, I was not, but it started me on the right path. I practice weekly with an open sighted rifle and have without missing too many trips to the range for the last 5 years. I still have a scoped rifle and it is my most used rifle for hunting. I want to commit to only using a metallic sighted rifle for an entire hunting season, but I am just not there yet.

[JReed]

Like many of you I grew up with Irons. I only have 2 long guns with scopes on them one my .223 varmint rifle with a 3-9 on it and my 308 with a 4X (I am planning on putting irons on it in the near future). All the rest have irons. I find that I have to think more when I shoot my scoped guns because I am not as used to them as irons.
To my dismay The Marine Corps is allowing the use of ACOGS on the M16 and M4 on the rifle range. I have no problem with them they are a great scope but it really diminishes the level of marksmanship that we have especially since most of today's young men and women grow up with scopes.

For my 2 cents being proficient with irons makes for a better shot.

[375hh1973]

I am certainly in the minority here I guess. I shot irons when I had to, qualified with M14. Vowed that if able, would shoot scopes in the future! I currently own 9 rifles. The only one that has any type of irons is my AR-15 which has flip up back ups for the small chance that my EOTECH fails. I love quality glass, Zeiss or Leupold on my rifles. I shoot with much more confidence and we all know how much shooting is mental. That being said, I have the UTMOST respect for those of you that can shoot and hit stuff WAY out there with irons, cuz I'm not good at it. I have a friend with an iron sighted bolt rifle in 30-40 krag and it is both fun and humbling at the same time to shoot long range with it. I could see myself getting into it as a challenge.

[Ray Newman]

"I have never owned a scope. That's cheating."
--Chas.

Your eyes must still be good....

[El Chivo]

I started shooting at age 47 and got into tang sights and silhouette pretty quickly. Lately I have gotten into scopes for shooting in low light at indoor range, and hunting. I am still more accurate with the tang sight, if shooting groups. For me the crosshairs tend to jump around whereas a front sight seems steady.

Some of it could be the weight of the scope, it seems to throw things off. And I sure hate carrying them, especially when climbing. But it is the quickest way to get on target (at 1x) it takes me 1 second whereas the tang sight takes 3 seconds. And I have run into situations where the target disappears if the aperture's too small. So the scope has obvious advantages.

What I don't like about the scope is that you set it and then use different holds for different ranges. After so many shots using the same hold for everything and clicking to it, my mind rebels at holding over or holding low. So for me, a scope is for short range or a super-flat-shooting rifle, so I can just hold on center and let 'er rip.

What I'm working on for my Marlins, is to do both. They all have tang sights, and Weaver rails, and the tang sight looks right over the rail. Then I can put on a scope in a few seconds. So if I'm going to shoot indoors or hunt, on goes the scope. If it's a day at the range, especially silhouette, off comes the scope.

I'm going to stick with the low power scope, the Weaver 1-3. I just spent a couple of afternoons sighting in my new Handi-rifle in .243 which wears one. That's plenty of magnification to see a 3" bull at 200 yards (to SEE - I couldn't hit it) so it should do for deer at 300 yards. I plan to carry it at 1x, and increase it if I set up for a long shot. But even at 1x, the scope will be a better way to acquire a target if it's brown on brown. I detest the jiggliness of a high mag scope. I have a rimfire scope that's 2.5 to 7 and don't like moving it off 2.5, although I might find I'm flexible if I find myself in front of a field of ground squirrels.

[KirkD]

...Qualifed expert with the M16, M14, Pistol, hand grenade ...

I'm thinking that rapid sight-picture acquisition is important with the hand grenade once the pin is pulled.

[Kansas Ed]

I, much like Rangerider7, have a couple of small caliber high vel scoped rifles for long range varmint work. While I can shoot them very very well if I take my time, I hate to hunt with them. For me though, it's that I hate to carry them. That glass gets terribly uncomfortable packing for me. Nothing balances right. But in all honesty I do shoot them better than irons. I just don't use them.

My first cartridge rifle was a Marlin Glenfield 60. I shot so much ammo through that thing as a kid I can't believe I didn't wear out the barrel. But even with the crude iron sights I could hit anything I could see. When I got older I didn't shoot .22's anymore..and that I think is my undoing. Recently I bought two little rimfires, and the joys of offhand shooting have returned for me. I am consistently getting better when I burn up the .22 rounds on a consistent basis. But all of them are wearing better than stock irons now. Part of the reason people don't shoot irons anymore IMO is that gun companies have cut costs on their sights. If people had good irons coming stock on rifles I think people would use them more.

Ed

[MrMurphy]

Mix of both for me. I did not grow up hunting. Most of my early shooting was .22's, and pistols, and milsurp rifles. I did not actually own a scoped rifle until recently.


Having shot everything from nearly muzzle contact distance out to 1,000 yards with irons, it can be done. Scopes don't make it any easier to hit, they make it easier to see, as Jeff Cooper once remarked. He had a whole lot more experience than me and he used scopes......and did so since the 30s.

What converted me was red dots. Clearing buildings with an iron sighted M16 in the dark or low light vs with an Aimpoint-equipped M4 will make a believer out of your for visibility and speed. Sort of like the USMC and the ACOGs vs irons argument.

It never hurts to be at least competent with irons, but scopes allow a lot of people to make better hits.

The only shot i've made on a predator was a coyote in the dark with and XS ghost ring. A scope wouldn't have helped any but it wouldn't have hindered me too much either. What i see as the problem among scope shooters is usually over-glassing the situation. They're convinced they need a 14X for a 100 yard shot from a treestand.

[Old Savage]

Kirk, the key as I recall is don't release that handle until the thing is on the way. Other than that it was like throwing rocks.

[Griff]

...Qualifed expert with the M16, M14, Pistol, hand grenade ...

I'm thinking that rapid sight-picture acquisition is important with the hand grenade once the pin is pulled.

Naw, it ain't the pin so much, as it's when you release the spoon.

[wilko]

All fine and good when shooting targets.. but when hunting, possibly shooting in low light situations, i will do everything in my power to get a clean kill... i OWE that to the animal i hunt.... i use scopes when hunting and am not ashamed of it..

on the range with my k31 though....

[KirkD]

Goes to show you how much I toss hand grenades around. I thought a fellow had to hold on to the grenade after releasing the spoon while he counted off the number of seconds not needed to make the target, so the lucky recipient wouldn't have time to pick it up and heave it back. This always seemed like a risky thing to me and would call for a lot of faith in the timing of the fuse, which in turned would make a fellow hope it wasn't made on a Friday afternoon or a Monday morning.

[KirkD]

All fine and good when shooting targets.. but when hunting, possibly shooting in low light situations, i will do everything in my power to get a clean kill... i OWE that to the animal i hunt.... i use scopes when hunting and am not ashamed of it..

on the range with my k31 though....

Well, hunting with iron sights means that if one can't see good enough to take the shot, one does not take it. Practically speaking, I usually have to wait an extra 15 minutes after legal shooting time before I can see the front sight clear enough to make an accurate shot, if the day is overcast. Clear mornings and evenings are not a problem, although I do use White Out on my front sight during hunting season to make it stand out. This can be a bit of a handicap, as I see more deer in the last half hour of legal shooting time than I usually do the rest of the day combined. Self imposed restrictions, however, are the joy and the challenge of the hunt. I just remind myself of the bow hunters and then I feel like I'm taking the easy road with iron sights on rifles. All of us have different approaches to hunting. My main point, however, is that at the range, iron sight shooting is a lot more challenging and fun. The practical necessities of hunting may be different.

[J Miller]

This is just my opinion you understand, but I believe the iron sights found on rifles today share most of the blame for the switch to scopes.
In the late 1800s to the 1930s the rifles and carbines had fine sights on them. By "fine" I mean the front sights were blades or very small beads and the rears had small notches in them. They had quite a bit of fine adjustments in them as well.
Today's sights are almost always found with huge beads up front and the rear sights have hog wallow sized troughs in the blades instead of fine notches.
It's very hard to shoot accurately with that kind of sights.

In the 1800s peep and globe sights were the epitome of accurate iron sights. It's the same today. If you want good irons you've got to yank the factory junk off and install better. Peep sights of many designs are on the market as well as the old time tang and globe sights.

I have peeps and factory irons on my lever guns. As time and funds become available all of them will have peeps and the factory sights will be tossed aside.
My two Enfields have the factory peep sights on them that are very accurate sights. I wouldn't scope them for anybody.
My Marlin MR-7 is handicapped by not having any iron sights. That will be corrected eventually. I still haven't decided what kind of sights to put on it. I'm looking for a side mount Williams FP or Lyman but so far haven't found what I want.


I'm in total agreement with JReed when he says: "For my 2 cents being proficient with irons makes for a better shot".

Joe

[wilko]

All fine and good when shooting targets.. but when hunting, possibly shooting in low light situations, i will do everything in my power to get a clean kill... i OWE that to the animal i hunt.... i use scopes when hunting and am not ashamed of it..

on the range with my k31 though....

Well, hunting with iron sights means that if one can't see good enough to take the shot, one does not take it.

Agreed ! and i do see your point. I would NEVER buy any rifle that does not have iron sights on it.. simply not interested.. i just have a strong opinion when it comes to shooting animals..

[Griff]

Goes to show you how much I toss hand grenades around. I thought a fellow had to hold on to the grenade after releasing the spoon while he counted off the number of seconds not needed to make the target, so the lucky recipient wouldn't have time to pick it up and heave it back. This always seemed like a risky thing to me and would call for a lot of faith in the timing of the fuse, which in turned would make a fellow hope it wasn't made on a Friday afternoon or a Monday morning.

It depends on the range. Shorter ranges, yes... release the spoon and count to... X, then toss. Longer range, count less, toss sooner! But, wait, the subject was sight aquisition... not lock time!

[Old Shatterhand]

Two of my rifles are scoped, but I do prefer the iron sights. With the irons, you just fix the target with the eye and put the bead there and pull the trigger without knowing why or when.

Pete

[donw]

my two levers are, of course, iron sighted. my ruger P9, 9mm carbine has the standard irons.

the 39AS has a williams peep for the rear apreture and the 1894c has standard, factory buckhorn.

i was trained in open sight use by the U.S. Army on the M-1 garand and M-1 carbine.

the bigger, longer range, rifles have scopes like my savage 12fv, rem 22-250 and .223 H&R ultra-varmint.

my air rifles are both...depending on how they come equipped, but most have open sights.

[donw]

geeeeeeee griff and kirkD...aren't you guys aware that some grenades are NO fuse (for "booby" traps)...when the spoon flies, it goes BOOOOOM instantly...

fortunately they're usually marked as such...

found that out while in the infantry...

[Ben_Rumson]

donw said: fortunately they're usually marked as such...
Note:
These are marked with the Wiley Coyote Logo & are Mfg’d by the Acme Anvil Co.