Test of Premium .458 cal Bullets in 450 Marlin and 45-70

[NonPCnraRN]

I sent 5 Northfork solid copper 350 gr cup point bullets to reflex264 at MarlinOwner.com for bullet testing. He loads custom ammo for the 450 Marlin and 45-70. His bullet of choice has been the 300 gr Nosler Partition. He shot the Northfork and other brands of premium .458 cal bullets in a head to head comparison. Being in California I was interested in how the all copper bullets performed compared to the others. In an e-mail he said he would have no qualms about using them for Cape Buffalo. I know nothing of that size can be found in CA but I figured you might be interested in the results since they perform like WFN solids with an expanded meplat. They should be just the ticket for those of us that want cast bullet performance from all copper bullets. They offer a different choice to the Barnes 300 gr TSX. Here is the link: http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/inde ... 552.0.html Comments welcome, especially from CA hunters.

[Mike D.]

Here in CA, the Barnes 250 TSX is all the bullet anyone would need for .45 caliber rifles and for what's available locally. Deer and pigs will succumb easily to those bullets. They are much shorter than the 300 TSX and do not require a reduced charge to seat the bullet.

[CowboyTutt]

Mike, I consider you a good friend and I have no doubt you are correct, but for those of us who care to "give the very best" I think the Northfork bullets are a welcome development. If I want to use a 250 grain bullet I would just use my 358 Win BLR (and the 225 Barnes or something better if its out there). To me at least, the whole point of the 45-70 is the use of heavy bullets at moderate velocities. Just my two cents but I hope to see Northfork stay in business this time!!!!

-Tutt

[Old Savage]

Well forget that - we want the latest in technology for use in the 45-70 with the Calif condor rules.

[NonPCnraRN]

Franz at North Fork said he also has 250 gr .452 cal bullets for the 45 Colt and 454 Casull. They aren't listed in the current list of bullets but are available. Shoot him an email. They are the same cup point solid copper design. The cups flatten at impact velocities of 1200 fps or faster. I emphasize flatten, as in create a larger meplat, as opposed to a mushroom. He also offers a flat nose solid. According to Franz his bullet design penetrates deeper than the Barnes TSX/DPX bullets and after looking at the picture of it compared to the other premium bullets it is easy to see why. If you want a bullet to penetrate stem to stern on an animal I believe the NF will out perform the Barnes bullet which is an excellent bullet design in its own right. I just like bullets that mimic hardcast lead bullets with the added feature of a larger meplat upon impact. I am trying to talk Franz into a 250 gr .429 bullet and a 300-325 gr .475 cal bullet for the 44 mag and 480 Ruger/ 475 Linebaugh, respectively. If CA shooters let him know there is a demand for big bore bullets heavier than the Barnes offerings it might entice him to program his CNC machines for those bullets. His bullets are priced comparably to the Barnes bullets considering that each bullet is CNC machined and identical to the next. I have the .452 and .458 caliber bullets. I have sent some (5 each) to other shooters to test and so far Roy aka reflex264 is the only one who has produced testing results. If anyone would like to test either the .452 or .458 cal bullets let me know by IM. The only thing I ask is that at $92/50 you follow through and post the results and or e-mail me the results. CA shooters need more than one choice for lead free bullets so it is important to me that as many levergunners and SA revolver shooters are made aware of these bullets. PS: I have no financial interest in NF. I just want CA shooters to have choices.

[piller]

Those NorthFork bullets sound good. Even out of my Guide Gun they would have enough velocity to open up. The .452 bullets would be great out of a rifle or carbine, but not too many people would get 1200 or better out of a .45 Colt caliber revolver. A Ruger or Freedom Arms, or even a few others are built tough enough to handle the pressure, but many of the Colt copies and most S&W and Taurus revolvers probably wouldn't do it. Anything built for the .454 Casull would do it with ease, as we all know. By the way, the poster in the other forum who didn't like Nosler partitions probably hadn't tried them. Sighthunter took her elk with a .30-06 180 grain Nosler Partition and the 1 shot went straight in through the neck and through the heart and into the guts. Penetration was straight line about 3.5 feet. The front portion was shed, but the rear portion was expanded very well and did exactly what it was meant to do. I like it when the correct bullet is used on game and the bullet does exactly as intended. I like to hunt, but I don't like to see an animal suffer. I have used the wrong bullets for the animal a couple of times, and was not proud of myself afterwards. Shot placement is important, but there are times when you don't get a good shot or you just plain make a bad shot. The better bullets help at that point. I don't hunt where solid copper is required by law, but I will get some of these NorthFork bullets and see if I can't find time to try them on a hog.

[Mike D.]

At some point I might consider the NF bullets, but they are twice the cost of the Barnes. I know how well the TSX works on game, so I will stick with them for the time being. If the cost rises like I expect it to do the situation will change. My supply of the TSXs is good enough to last for at least a few years. I don't plink with them, they are strictly for hunting use. I have a few thousand LaserCast 300 and 325 gr LFNs for target and general purpose shooting. Lead is still legal up this way, but for how long is anyone's guess. I only shoot the Barnes when hunting, no matter where I go. My rifles are sighted for them and I know where they will strike at any given distance.

[86er]

What were the bullets shot into? First let me say that CRS and I loaded and tested a bunch of Northforks including the cup point solid, bonded core and full solid in 350 grain up to 450 grain and in 45-70 and 45-90. That aside, I have seen time and time again that bullets do not perform the same on game as they do on tests with media, whether it is ballistic gel, newspaper, whatever. I like Reflex and he does a good job making fair comparisons within the same parameters. I specifically recall that CRS and I did not experience any expansion with the cup point on deer sized game at 100 yards +/- a little bit. Very few bullets were recovered from game, but I did shoot some into watusi and water buffalo. The 350's did not look like the one in the photo in Reflex's test results. We got the front to flatten out and stay that way on close range soft tissue shots, 50 yds or less on animals over 850 pounds but not hitting bone. When they hit bone the flattened front lost the edges and looked much like a shortened version of the original bullet when they stayed in the animal. The heavier weight bullets were actually more consisted in showing expansion. I believe that is due to the larger metplat and larger cavity or "cup" in the point with thicker material around it. At 45-70 velocities they rarely showed an expanded nose, at 45-90 velocity (26" bbl) it was sometimes. That doesn't make 'em bad bullets, on the contrary they are strong and work good but maybe not as expected. The 300 gr Nosler Partition is yet another story. I understand most of the recoverd bullets shed the front half. What we found is that in game animals the front portion often mushrooms and stays intact. I shot a leopard in the shoulder at close range and the recovered bullet is a nice looking mushroom with nearly 100% weight retention. I am sure the Northfork will prove effective for you on game in CA (and elsewhere). You were probably right when you commented that they would behave much like a WFP cast bullet as far as the wound channel characteristics. Anyway, sorry for the sermon. My point is that bullet performance is media is often totally different that in game. We're lucky here to have tons of opportunities to fire bullets into animals, both live and freshly killed. If you want a photo or data I could find it and email it to you. Good Luck and Good Shooting!

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Nice. I've settled on the 400 grain Swift A-Frame myself. The NorthForks were just a tiny bit too pointy for my peace of mind. I mean, of course, the copper and lead soft points ... not the all copper cupped slugs.

[NonPCnraRN]

I believe the benefit of the NF bullets is that CA hunters have more choices where lead free ammo is concerned. Now depending what you are hunting i.e. blacktail or mule deer vs a 300 lb boar with a mud covered gristle plate, you have a lead free bullet that will fill the bill. Regarding the 250 gr .452 bullet, it should be perfect for the 454 carbines or a Ruger that can launch a 250 gr bullet over 1200 fps. According to Franz, the owner of NF, even if the cup point doesn't open up it still does more damage than a WFN with the same size meplat. The edges of the cup point are relatively sharp compared to the rounded edges of most meplat designs. That should make them more destructive than a WFN. I visualize a cookie cutter type of effect. I may be wrong. Like I said before, the best thing for CA hunters is choice. I will be in contact with reflex264 (Roy) and see what the composition of his "Ballistic Buffalo" consitsts of. When he first mentioned Ballistic Buffalo I thought he was shooting at a bad tempered injun er native American. It is noteworthy that prior to the test his bullet of choice was the Nosler which had been used on game up to and including large bears IIRC. I also think that a Africa bound 45-70 or 450 Marlin hunter should give them a close look.

[Leverluver]

The 45-70 cup point is a completely different animal than the one intended for very heavy (African) game. The "cup" is different and it opens further and at a much reduced velocity compared to the African one. Two totally different designs for two totally different purposes.

[NorthFork]

The North Fork .458-350 CPS is designed specifically to operate at 45-70 velocities and above. This is a new CPS design compared to our CPS's designed for large African Game and we designed it specifically for California shooters that needed a hard cast lead bullet alternative. In our testing, it outperforms hard cast bullets in penetration and wound channel by a wide margin while being Condor Friendly . The benefits of the new design compared to our African designed CPS is that it begins opening at a much lower velocity, less then 1400fps. Our African version is designed for a small operating range of velocities that one would encounter if tackling large and dangerous game at close range. One enthusiastic customer has tested the new .458-350 CPS design to 458 Lott velocities with impressive results. Here is a nice write-up in Accurate Reloading http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve ... 2581015531 It's a long thread but there are a lot of test results on other bullets from other makers as well.

I personally just got back from field testing the.458-350 CPS out of my 45-70 Marlin Guide gun on bear in the North West Territories of Canada. It worked splendidly. No recovered bullet to show but the wound channel was deep, straight and impressive. The size of the entrance and exit holes suggests the bullet opened perfectly. Accuracy is exceptional as well.

A word of caution to folks using our African designed CPS, the velocity range these are designed for is small and going slower or faster can result in the cup not opening correctly. It is a purpose built bullet that when used in it's design space (moderate velocity at close range) is impressive. I have attached a picture of a 375-350 CPS that was recovered from a frontal chest shot on a mature duggaboy at 40yds. The bullet was recovered in the rear hind quarter.

recovered 375 350 CPS from Buff web.jpg

If you have any questions, feel free to email us at info@northforkbullets.com

[NorthFork]

I thought folks might like to see this as well. Attached are some pictures of a recovered 475 cal 475 gr CPS designed for Doug Turnbull's 475 Turnbull. This is with our new CPS design. It's the only one we were able to recover as they blow through our standard test media. We had to stick a creosote soaked 16" log in front of our artificial rumen to catch it. We found it 36" into our media after it went through the log.

475 turnbull CPS.jpg

475 turnbull CPS weight.jpg

[NonPCnraRN]

I thought folks might like to see this as well. Attached are some pictures of a recovered 475 cal 475 gr CPS designed for Doug Turnbull's 475 Turnbull. This is with our new CPS design. It's the only one we were able to recover as they blow through our standard test media. We had to stick a creosote soaked 16" log in front of our artificial rumen to catch it. We found it 36" into our media after it went through the log.

475 turnbull CPS.jpg

475 turnbull CPS weight.jpg

OK, so when will I see one for the 480R / 475L, hint, hint, beg, cajole, whine, snivel? Pushy ain't I?

[NorthFork]

We will get to the handgun bullets shortly

[CowboyTutt]

I just wanted to say how much I appreciate Northfork Bullets contributing their input to this forum. That does not happen very often but it is very well noted and appreciated not just to me but to other forum-ites as well!!!!!

-Tutt

[NonPCnraRN]

I just wanted to say how much I appreciate Northfork Bullets contributing their input to this forum. That does not happen very often but it is very well noted and appreciated not just to me but to other forum-ites as well!!!!!

-Tutt

Tutt: When I received my order of North Fork .458 and .452 bullets the CNC precision of each bullet blew me away. Pun intended. Not having the facilities to test bullets I sent 5 of each to reflex264 (Roy) to inflict on his Ballistic Buffalo. I am glad I did. Now I know that I can be kind to Condors and kill anything that walks inside or outside of CA. It is sweet irony that the CA Condor mishmash helped produce a superior hunting bullet. Maybe I should thank the antis who are actually behind the lead free ammo fiasco. They will freak thinking they helped create a demand which resulted in the NF CPSs. They will have to go smoke some of their medicinal marijuana. Don't you just love when an anti-gun / anti-hunting plan backfires? 17" of penetration beat all the other premium bullets in the test regardless of design. My thanks to Roy for doing what I could not. Now there is more than one lead free bullet for CA hunters, especially for those of us who worship at the altar of the WFN hardcast.

[reflex264]

I should add that the test I set up was intentionaly designed to destroy bullets to predict out come on larger and tougher game. How close does it mimic game? In terms of pnenetration there isn't a animal in the wolrd as tough as what I shot. I used this same media set up then took info from on game performance. This is something I have done hundreds of times in order to create a data base. I can take this info and correlate the media/game numbers and have reached a point where I have a good ideal what will happen on a living breathing creature. For example I tested lead WFN bullets but knowing that they won't survice the abrasive effect of this type of media I used steer knuckles and wet media. I already had data from cape and water buff so I kept at it till I was sure I knew what would happen. I carried the bullet that I thought worked the best at breaking the shoulder and passing through the lungs. When the oppertunity came on a living breathing water buffalo the bullet did exactly what I wanted it to do. I broke the onside leg and got both lungs and the bullet messed up the offside shoulder and stopped short of leaving the offside hide which was exactly what I wanted and what my testing showed would happen. Confusion comes when shooters try to equate exact inches of penetration to exact inches on game. Exact volume of tissue disturbance with the amount of media displaced. It aint going to happen. What can happen is that with all the kills out there with every bullet imaginable you can find someone who has been there and done that then do a correlation of flesh to media. reflex264

Ask this big bovine if it believes in bullet testing................

[crs]

What 86er and others said + 1 - See this link for information and pics of NF 300 grain CPS in .405 WCF:
http://www.northforkbullets.com/magento/blog/?paged=2

I like testing bullets on big edible critters because it provides fun and food!

BTW, After two days in a marinade and 8 hours in the smoker, the WB brisket was delicious and was totally devoured at a recent cookout at the farm.

[reflex264]

What 86er and others said + 1 - See this link for information and pics of NF 300 grain CPS in .405 WCF:
http://www.northforkbullets.com/magento/blog/?paged=2

I like testing bullets on big edible critters because it provides fun and food!

BTW, After two days in a marinade and 8 hours in the smoker, the WB brisket was delicious and was totally devoured at a recent cookout at the farm.

Yep big tasty critters are the best testing media. My water buff weighed 1800+ lbs. The steaks are a bit tough but we have found out that cooking them in the crock pot like a roast makes for the best pot roast I ever ate. reflex264

[Old Savage]

Very interesting reflex, I like your approach.