Win 94 Under the carrier jams - pictorial

[J Miller]

Many of us have had under the carrier jams with our Winchester 94s. This seems to be much more prevalent with the later Post-64 versions and the .357 Mag versions made towards the end of Winchesters production.
Here is a couple of cut away drawings showing what the insides of a Winchester 94 looks like in both open and closed positions.

Win 94 closed action cutaway illistrated.JPG

In figure A you see the action closed. In the circle is the cartridge stop. When the action is closed the cartridge stop lays flat, out of the way in the notch machined for it. The cartridges in the magazine slide right over the top of it onto the carrier.

Mdl 1894 cartridge lifter 1914.jpg

The forward end of most of the Win 94 cartridge carriers are notched to sit low in the receiver around the cartridge stop.
This notch varies from deep as in the pre-64 carrier shown in the picture above, to shallow in some of the post-64 carriers.
The .357 carriers found in the later USRAC guns are much shorter than the other carriers and have no notch.

Win 94 open action cutaway illistrated.JPG

In Figure: B you see the action open with the cartridge stop in the up position blocking the next cartridge in line. As you can see by this pic, it's not the height of the stop but its length that's critical.

Study the pic and you can easily see what happens to cause an under the carrier jam. When the cartridge stop breaks off, wears down or tolerances stack up wrong, the cartridge will slip over it and end up between the open link and raised carrier. At this point clearing the jam usually requires at least partial disassembly of the rifle.

The problem can be cured in a number of ways:
A: Replace the link
B: Cold swauge the cartridge stop to a longer length and then reshape it with a file. This only works if the problem is minor wear or a tolerance problem.
C: Weld up the stop and reshape it.
D: See Nate Kiowa Jones post down below.

I hope this helps explain the "Under The Carrier Jam" Winchester 94s are occasionally beset with.

Joe

[Hobie]

I know we've discussed this several times since 2003 but this is the best explanation I've seen. I wish I'd known this in 1973 with my old M94 .44 Mag...

[JReed]

Thanks Joe. Last summer you and I diagnosed my .45 trapper with this problem. Still need to fix it.

[Griff]

Good explanation, Joe. Good pics to show the symptom, cause and cure!

[pshort]

Thanks Joe......

Paul

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Joe,
There is one other fix I've had some success using with the 357's. Part of the problem with the late 94's is Win tried to make the parts, one-size-fits-all. In other words they left things kind of loose to eliminate as much hand fitting as possible. There where the link is pinned into the receiver is a good example. When someone sent a 357 that was feeding under the carrier I would order a new link and the install it using a custom made oversize link pin. Then drill both the receiver and the link for a tight pin fit. By removing the slack there at the pin this made the cart stop come back to the same place each time.

[J Miller]

Steve,

Now that you mention it I do remember you saying that. That's why I mentioned tolerances stacking wrong as one of the causes.
One of the few critical fits of the 94 design and they had to go loosen it up. Bad juju in my opinion.

Joe

[C. Cash]

Great post Joe...many thanks for the pics and info. Looks like a sticky to me.

[20cows]

BRAVO ,Joe!

2nd the sticky!

[gamekeeper]

Thanks Joe, you never know when you might need "the fix"

[retmech]

My 94 AE started passing shells under the carrier so I ordered a new link because the top edge of the cartridge stop was worn and rounded. The new link lasted about 100 rds and it started screwing up. The part is a soft sintered metal part and it started rounding. I had a friend weld the stop and I reshaped it. Now over a thousand rounds later no problem, with the link. I'm on my third ejector now so it looks like I have to make one of those too! Here is a picture of my link. I made it a little wider than original and it's holding up great, looks just like when I first put it in with no wear on it.
[img]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums ... .jpg[/img]

[Poohgyrr]

Thanks, I do lots better when I can see it; and this thread does that.

I printed this out, but this problem seems to be a real pain and ticked me off to no end with my .357 Trapper - or maybe I'm just being anal... Is there someway we can make this a sticky, or at least part of a sticky (we already have a few)??

[J Miller]

Thanks, I do lots better when I can see it; and this thread does that.

I printed this out, but this problem seems to be a real pain and ticked me off to no end with my .357 Trapper - or maybe I'm just being anal... Is there someway we can make this a sticky, or at least part of a sticky (we already have a few)??

Poohgyrr,
It is a sticky. Has been for a while now.
The .357 Win 94s in .357 are either saints or demons. Some of them work perfectly and others do not. Yours might take a combination of fixes. Cartridge stop, as well as the over sized screw or pin to tighten up the link to receiver fit.

Joe

[Pipeliner]

Howdy from a returning member. I sometimes stop in but haven't posted in a long time. I am looking for a loading gate for my Canadian Centennial (1967) rifle, or a good picture of the back side of same. I recently aquired this rifle and am having some problems. My Big Bore has a slight notch that the cartridge rim catches on but the Canadian doesn't, and the durn thing sometimes lets the last one loaded slip past and rattle around on the carrier. Any help is greatly appreciated.

[donw]

i had that problem with my 94 and sent it back to the factory. they corrected and sent it back to me without explanation.

[JohndeFresno]

EXCELLENT!

[OD*]

Nicely done, Joe.

[wiskeyVI]

Hmmmm, This sounds like the current problem I'm having with my Rossi 92.

[bobinwa]

i had that problem with my 94 and sent it back to the factory. they corrected and sent it back to me without explanation.

Do you know how long the warranty is? I bought the one I'm having trouble with in 2006 and I wonder if Winchester would fix this?

-bob

[donw]

no---i don't know how long the warranty is---sorry.

a call to the Winchester factory might net you some desirable results though.

[randal]

Hey gang, I'm newly registered but not new to the site...I've visited often as a guest in order to help me diagnose problems with my 1967 Model 94 30-30.

I'm having lever link/cartridge stop issues (again) and I was wondering just how much material is supposed to be on the cartridge stop...does anyone know if there are dimensions somewhere that I can refer to?

Also, what's the best material to use to build up the stop? I've read silver solder...and if I'm not mistaken, the smith that previously repaired this for me used silver solder and here I am again...should I try something harder?

I'm sorry if this has been answered over and over, I used the search function repeatedly and didn't see anything...

Thanks,
Randal

[Griff]

Hey gang, I'm newly registered but not new to the site...I've visited often as a guest in order to help me diagnose problems with my 1967 Model 94 30-30.

I'm having lever link/cartridge stop issues (again) and I was wondering just how much material is supposed to be on the cartridge stop...does anyone know if there are dimensions somewhere that I can refer to?

Also, what's the best material to use to build up the stop? I've read silver solder...and if I'm not mistaken, the smith that previously repaired this for me used silver solder and here I am again...should I try something harder?

I'm sorry if this has been answered over and over, I used the search function repeatedly and didn't see anything...

Thanks,
Randal

Hard-facing. Silver-solder is too soft to stand up to the repeated hammering the brass rim of the cartridge will subject the stop to. I don't know of any dimensional data for the stop... it's just a weld up till it's too big, then file it down til it works... Sorry.