Pressure Spike in Smokeless Powders

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KirkD
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Re: Pressure Spike in Smokeless Powders

Post by KirkD »

That Ballistol trick is good to know. I tend to be a perfectionist when I clean BP out of my arms, especially sixguns, so it turns out to be about a one hour process per gun. Part of the problem is not knowing how much cleaning is enough, since no one else around here shoots BP in their old guns. You are right about the old corrosive primers. In my opinion, they did more damage than BP ever did, judging from how the first inch of the bore in front of the throat looks in a lot of old guns.
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Re: Pressure Spike in Smokeless Powders

Post by JohndeFresno »

Bravo! Too much to absorb at one sitting - archiving all pages of this blog. Good work, gentlemen - very impressive research, observations, and dialog.
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Re: Pressure Spike in Smokeless Powders

Post by Mike D. »

Unless I am loading HV .44-40 cartridges I steer clear of 2400. It's perfect for smaller cases line the .25-20 and .32-20, but Unique, and in some cases Bullseye, works best for the larger cases, like the .38 and .44-40. Like Sixgun said 6.5 grains Unique is perfect for the older SAs, S&Ws, '73 Winchesters, Colt Lightnings, and other guns of that era. I go up to 8 grains for my "smokeless" Frontier Six Shooters. Many thousands of happy rounds run through those guns and they haven't changed one iota. :)
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Re: Pressure Spike in Smokeless Powders

Post by w30wcf »

Personally, being somewhat of a traditionalist, the original 44-40 smokeless rounds contained 14 -17 grs. of powder, depending on the propellant used. THerefore, the vast majority of my 44-40 cartridges are loaded with powders within that range. I find that 2400 and 4227 to be excellent in that role. :D

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Re: Pressure Spike in Smokeless Powders

Post by AJMD429 »

JohndeFresno wrote:Bravo! Too much to absorb at one sitting - archiving all pages of this blog. Good work, gentlemen - very impressive research, observations, and dialog.
Yep - VERY educational...! 8) 8) 8)

One OTHER issue comes to mind as far as 'old steel' vs. 'new steel' - not just the bursting strength, and stretch, but how about compression as in pressure-peening the chamber or even bore sidewalls? Is that just basically incorporated into 'stretch' engineering? I just wonder if rapid-spiking pressure would tend to compress the steel, short of actually bursting it, or if that would show up as 'stretch' when people measured their guns after extensive rapid-spike powder use.

Personally, I plan to stick with the slow-spike smokeless loads for the reasons KirkD mentions, but this has been a very interesting thread.
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Re: Pressure Spike in Smokeless Powders

Post by bigiron »

Has anyone actually taken examples of antique steels, perhaps otherwise unsalvagable frames, cylinders,etc, and subjected them to destructive metallurgical testing? It would be satisfying to see real numbers attached to this discussion. I've not turned up much in the past beside some second hand references to testing of decarbonized steels used in late 19th century shotgun barrels, the elastic limit given was in the 25000 psi range although i have no information on the manufacturer. Kuhnhausen has rockwell tested a number of SAA frames, but the jury is out on whether hardness can be directly related to tensile strength. Subjectively, I own two first gen saa Colts, an 1899 non VP and a 1905 VP. Even hand tighting a screw you can "feel" the difference in the steel as the screw torques up; less "strech" in the 1905. I shoot
Trailboss, by the way, in both of them as they have 2nd gen cylinders. I find it easy and as accurate as i need to be for moderate plinking duty, but this thread has got me interested in working up loads with some the the mentioned powders.
Nice to see a thoughtful and informed discussion on this topic instead of the knee-jerk hysteria that is usually provoked by the idea of using smokless in "BLACK POWDER" guns.
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Re: Pressure Spike in Smokeless Powders

Post by Mike D. »

Seeing Driftwood's post about VP marks on Colt SAs made me take a look at mine. None of my 1st Generation, 1903-08 guns have that mark. These old shooters have had countless rounds fired through them with absolutely no issues.
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Re: Pressure Spike in Smokeless Powders

Post by Bryan Austin »

Another forum with the same guys ;-)

Again, great topic, pards and information!
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Re: Pressure Spike in Smokeless Powders

Post by Bryan Austin »

w30wcf wrote:Personally, being somewhat of a traditionalist, the original 44-40 smokeless rounds contained 14 -17 grs. of powder, depending on the propellant used. THerefore, the vast majority of my 44-40 cartridges are loaded with powders within that range. I find that 2400 and 4227 to be excellent in that role. :D

w30wcf
Which do you prefer for revolver and rifle?

2400 or 4227 (IMR?)

What about for the 45LC?
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Re: Pressure Spike in Smokeless Powders

Post by JohndeFresno »

SAVVY_JACK wrote:Another forum with the same guys ;-)

Again, great topic, pards and information!
Welcome, Savvy Jack!
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Re: Pressure Spike in Smokeless Powders

Post by Griff »

Welcome Savvy-Jack. Fun post to review. Forgotten what I'd posted on it. Shot off an PM to a pard and then read on down and I had said the same thing in another reply... Must be slippin' another cog!!! :lol: :oops: :o
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Re: Pressure Spike in Smokeless Powders

Post by Old Time Hunter »

Hobie, hope you put this thread back in the stickies...too good to let it fall through the cracks.
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Re: Pressure Spike in Smokeless Powders

Post by marlinman93 »

Some very good information here, and I like that nobody is getting their panties in a twist either! ;)
I would just add that in over 30 years of owning and reloading old single shot and repeating rifles, I've used BP once, and wasn't all that excited about it. In these many decades I've used smokeless powders almost exclusively, and never hurt any of my old guns, or myself.
I think with proper care, either powder will be equally safe, so it's just a preference of what you personally enjoy shooting, and cleaning up after. I like smokeless.
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Re: Pressure Spike in Smokeless Powders

Post by Pop Watts »

Hey Marlinman93.
You sure dug up an old post.
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Re: Pressure Spike in Smokeless Powders

Post by Les Staley »

Dang, Pop....glad yer still with us..four years with some of us in the shape we're in makes you wonder. Anybody else from this old post still alive? Great info, by the way...Les
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Re: Pressure Spike in Smokeless Powders

Post by otteray »

Interesting about Blue Dot and low pressure. I've got a full 4 lbs sitting unused since Hogdon gave it the heave-ho in the 41 mag. Is there any published data with it for 38 WCF?
I still haven't found anything to beat 6.5 gr Unique, though, for accuracy in the old Marlin 1889.
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Re: Pressure Spike in Smokeless Powders

Post by Bullard4075 »

JohndeFresno wrote:Bravo! Too much to absorb at one sitting - archiving all pages of this blog. Good work, gentlemen - very impressive research, observations, and dialog.
+1!
I too request this be a sticky.
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Re: Pressure Spike in Smokeless Powders

Post by Old Time Hunter »

What a great read...glad it was brought back up.
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Re: Pressure Spike in Smokeless Powders

Post by JohndeFresno »

Pop Watts wrote:Hey Marlinman93.
You sure dug up an old post.
Pop
Les Staley wrote:Dang, Pop....glad yer still with us..four years with some of us in the shape we're in makes you wonder. Anybody else from this old post still alive? Great info, by the way...Les
I second that motion - haven't seen your posts for a long time - good to hear from you!
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Re: Pressure Spike in Smokeless Powders

Post by earlmck »

Old Time Hunter wrote:What a great read...glad it was brought back up.
Yep -- I'll second that motion.

And though I haven't used it much in these black-powder pressure level loads, Blue Dot has been much nicer in the higher velocity (where you want a gas check bullet) loads than the 2400 generally recommended. But I surely can't find any published data in 38/40 and that data w30wcf found from the old Hercules book on the 44/40 is more than I could find amongst my collection on that cartridge.

And otteray, my Lyman manual #47 thinks Blue Dot is the best thing going in 41 mag. If I had a 41 mag and a batch of Blue Dot I would certainly be putting those little blue dots to use, even if Allient fails to recognize what a fine pistol powder it is.
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Re: Pressure Spike in Smokeless Powders

Post by otteray »

I just emailed the powder company about the blue dot and was told that because of a different method of pressure testing combined with recent primer mixture changes, 41Mag is still considered a bad idea with Blue Dot.
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Re: Pressure Spike in Smokeless Powders

Post by Nate Kiowa Jones »

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Re: Pressure Spike in Smokeless Powders

Post by mark »

JohndeFresno wrote:Bravo! Too much to absorb at one sitting - archiving all pages of this blog. Good work, gentlemen - very impressive research, observations, and dialog.
I certainly agree with your comments. It's a topic to be "tucked away", and probably printed.

Thanks Mark
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Re: Pressure Spike in Smokeless Powders

Post by Malamute »

Kirk, do you have the images of the pressure curve comparisons on your computer that you could post as attachments rather then the photobucket links which arent usable now? I tried getting into the album, but its restricted, and the pictures dont link back directly to see the originals hosted there. Many hotobucket images can still be seen on their site, but not 3rd party hosted. Unfortunately, the linked album is set to restricted access.
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