New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

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New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Pete44ru »

I was glancing through my newly-arrived Jan 2010 copy ( No.248) of RIFLE Magazine, and after reading Brian's fine article about levergun hunting I spotted a pictoral ad for a new levergun (pp 67) !

The pic was a little dark, but the new levergun appeared to be a blued/walnut Winchester Model 92/clone, with a pistol grip/curved lever and a top-mounted peep that looked suspiciously like a Williams WGRS.

The gun is the "Model 89", and is available in either rifle or carbine form - chambered to the powerful .500 S&W Magnum !

The offering/ad is from an outfit called "Big Horn Armory" of Cody, Wy - but when I tried their advertized website, all I could find besides a trophy pic of an Elk was a "site under construction" notice.

http://www.bighornarmory.com/products/

.
Last edited by Pete44ru on Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Levergun

Post by Buck Elliott »

If I find ( and I suspect I might...) that those involved in that enterprise have purloined my intellectual property, there will indeed be Hell to pay...
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Pete44ru »

I don't got no "intellectual property" to purloin. ;) :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Levergun

Post by Blaine »

Buck Elliott wrote:If I find ( and I suspect I might...) that those involved in that enterprise have purloined my intellectual property, there will indeed be Hell to pay...
Sounds like a story, here......Are you able to expound on this matter?
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Hobie »

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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by O.S.O.K. »

I have that magazine and I just took a look at the ad. Looks more like a model 86 - go back and look hard at the picture.

Don't know if that makes any difference...?

And I think chambering the 500 S&W in a lever gun makes a lot of sense. IMHO, its a better levergun cartridge than a revolver cartridge. I think its "over the line" in power and recoil for revolvers - witness the rediculously oversized X-frame its chambered in.
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Levergun

Post by kimwcook »

Buck Elliott wrote:If I find ( and I suspect I might...) that those involved in that enterprise have purloined my intellectual property, there will indeed be Hell to pay...
I hope it isn't thievery, but if it is, get'em Buck. Can't stand no thievin.
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by salvo »

Sure would like a nice little trapper in .475 Linebaugh!
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by NonPCnraRN »

salvo wrote:Sure would like a nice little trapper in .475 Linebaugh!
I got a Puma in 480 Ruger. In looking at the Grizzly Cartridge web site, the mv is only 100-150fps between the 480 Ruger and the .475 Linebaugh. I assume those are revolver barrel velocities. I would bet my 480 Ruger out of a Puma would be the equal of the .475 Linebaugh out of a six gun.
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Pete44ru »

[Looks more like a model 86 - go back and look hard at the picture.]

I just did, and don't think the loading gate is like the 86's - but the pic in the ad in my mag is dark, making it hard for me to say so definitely.

.
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Jeff Quinn »

NonPCnraRN wrote:
salvo wrote:Sure would like a nice little trapper in .475 Linebaugh!
I got a Puma in 480 Ruger. In looking at the Grizzly Cartridge web site, the mv is only 100-150fps between the 480 Ruger and the .475 Linebaugh. I assume those are revolver barrel velocities. I would bet my 480 Ruger out of a Puma would be the equal of the .475 Linebaugh out of a six gun.
This is from a 20 inch Puma:

LOAD WEIGHT VELOCITY
Hornady XTP 325 1561
Hornady XTP 400 1328
Cor-Bon DPX 275 1828
Buffalo Bore WFN 410 1407
Buffalo Bore LFN 370 1477
Grizzly Punch 340 1303
Grizzly JSP 350 1423
Grizzly LFN 375 1392
Grizzly JSP 400 1254
Grizzly WFN 425 1171
Handload LFN 325 1155
Handload Punch 370 1482
Handload XPB 275 1855


More details here:
http://www.gunblast.com/Puma480.htm
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by salvo »

NonPCnraRN wrote:
salvo wrote:Sure would like a nice little trapper in .475 Linebaugh!
I got a Puma in 480 Ruger. In looking at the Grizzly Cartridge web site, the mv is only 100-150fps between the 480 Ruger and the .475 Linebaugh. I assume those are revolver barrel velocities. I would bet my 480 Ruger out of a Puma would be the equal of the .475 Linebaugh out of a six gun.

I'm sure a deer could not tell the difference :D
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by AJMD429 »

O.S.O.K. wrote:I think its "over the line" in power and recoil for revolvers - witness the rediculously oversized X-frame its chambered in.
Yep - I think a saddle-ring levergun with a 16" barrel would ride easier on my hip than that hand-cannon of S&W's.
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Buck Elliott »

Thanks for posting the pics, Hobie...

Just finished a nice, friendly visit with the guys at "Bighorn Armory." Happy to report that they did NOT have access to my data and drawings, but went at their project pretty much the same way I did, originally. BIG difference was, they had someone with money to back them up in their venture, where I did not.

We both started with pretty-much the same premise, and came up with slightly different conclusions.

Found out that I sort of know a couple of the fellows involved, and one guy is a good friend of long standing, who must not have been aware of my interest in such things...?!?

They have a couple prototypes, which look pretty rough, but they work. Lots of things could have been done better, IMO, but I don't get to make their decisions.

The Model 89 is basically a cross between an '86 and a '92, with a few little quirks thrown in for good measure.

Bottom line: I like my rifle MUCH better, but then, it was designed by an engineer, and I may be just a tad prejudiced...

Guess there won't be no shootin' war, at least for the foreseeable future...
Last edited by Buck Elliott on Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by salvo »

Well that's good news Buck. I sure would love to be able to go the the gun shop and buy/order one of yours though.
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Pete44ru »

FWIW, Someone from Belt Mountain ( cylinder pins) has shot the gun:

"Base Pin Maker
Location: Belgrade, MT USA
Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:05 am

I've shot this gun, you guys are going to like it!
Kelye @ Belt Mtn

For more information, call Frank at Mount Baldy Bullets, Cody, Wyo.
307-754-5255
"

.
Last edited by Pete44ru on Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by piller »

Considering what my Puma in .480 has done, I personally have no need of a carbine in .50 S&W. Now, need and want are not the same thing. :wink:
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by uncowboy »

salvo wrote:
NonPCnraRN wrote:
salvo wrote:Sure would like a nice little trapper in .475 Linebaugh!
I got a Puma in 480 Ruger. In looking at the Grizzly Cartridge web site, the mv is only 100-150fps between the 480 Ruger and the .475 Linebaugh. I assume those are revolver barrel velocities. I would bet my 480 Ruger out of a Puma would be the equal of the .475 Linebaugh out of a six gun.

I'm sure a deer could not tell the difference :D
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Buck Elliott »

No -- more like Grizz Territory. You can't be overgunned for those furry, fanged & clawed beasties.
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Buck Elliott »

The Big Horn gun has angled locking lugs, and a few other little problems that can (and probably will) cause them eventual grief.

The .500 S&W runs at SAAMI max pressures of 60,000 psi, which ain't nothin' to sneeze at. Everything has to be tight and square from the get-go to make it work right...
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by kaschi »

Is the length of the action a full sized 86 or is it shorter? I don't know how long a 500 S&W Mag round is.
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Old Savage »

Buck, the whole deal in the end is who brings it to market. Intellectual property is one thing but there are more steps to somebody being able to buy it. Glad you did the work and know people who highly respect you but who can bring it to us?
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Buck Elliott »

Old Savage wrote:Buck, the whole deal in the end is who brings it to market. Intellectual property is one thing but there are more steps to somebody being able to buy it. Glad you did the work and know people who highly respect you but who can bring it to us?
Reckon you're right, OS. Suppose I should just shelve the whole idea and go become a homeless, dope-smokin' drunkard. Then, at least, the new socialist gubmint will take pity on me and give me a nearly-new packing crate (with no room for a gun safe...) to live in...
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Buck Elliott »

kaschi wrote:Is the length of the action a full sized 86 or is it shorter? I don't know how long a 500 S&W Mag round is.
The .500 sports a 1.625" ( 1 5/8") case, and 2.225" OAL, IIRC.

Back to my "Home Sweet Crate..."

EDIT...: The .500 S&W OAL is 2.250"... not 2.225" as I listed above.
My fingers didn't keep up with my brain. before.. :oops:
Last edited by Buck Elliott on Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by AJMD429 »

Buck Elliott wrote:Then, at least, the new socialist gubmint will take pity on me and give me a nearly-new packing crate (with no room for a gun safe...) to live in...
That's because in our brave new world, nobody will need guns. They'll only need things like cable television, fancy cell phones, gas grills, and cold beer - all the things our current welfare-recipients savor... :evil:
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Buck Elliott »

To answer part ONE of Kaschi's question...

The receiver of the Big Horn rifle (M-89) is shorter than that of the '86, to match the .500 S&W's length.

(Back to the crate....... If somebody tries to steal my new cardboard & slat mansion, I'll call 9-1-1 on my Federally-provided & subsidized I-phone. After all, "When seconds count, the cops are only minutes away...")
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Old Savage »

Now Buck, you sure can bring the smile :) But, you, them, both of you - now these fellows are just shakin like a bird dog ridin' into the field to get one of these. Any chance yours will be coming out?

Now me? I can already get all the recoil I want from a heavy .45 Colt or a 45-70.

The two ladies at the Vans store cornered a thief in dead end alley behind their store. The cops from the police station a mile away were Johnny on the spot in just 45 minutes.
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Buck Elliott »

I'll just say that I am pursuing a couple of new avenues with "renewed vigor..."
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Old Savage »

On your new crate now where you be stayin, with the govt go phone with the gps locator in it you can probably come up on google maps for pizza delivery and other such necessary emergency services. And you won't get caught like Tiger did with his phone.
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by C. Cash »

That is one fine looking rifle Buck. It may not be realistic to produce it in this day and age, but I'd add my name to the list of those who would love to see it in production. Is it simply too costly to produce?
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Buck Elliott »

C. Cash wrote:That is one fine looking rifle Buck. It may not be realistic to produce it in this day and age, but I'd add my name to the list of those who would love to see it in production. Is it simply too costly to produce?
There are new ways and means for making such a firearm, but even at that, they won't be cheap. The "ways & means" themselves are what you might call "spendy" investments.

Figure a MSRP of between $1800 and $2100. (YMMV)

It's only money; it's worth less every day, and they still print MORE of it...
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Mike D. »

AJMD429 wrote:
Buck Elliott wrote:Then, at least, the new socialist gubmint will take pity on me and give me a nearly-new packing crate (with no room for a gun safe...) to live in...
That's because in our brave new world, nobody will need guns. They'll only need things like cable television, fancy cell phones, gas grills, and cold beer - all the things our current welfare-recipients savor... :evil:
Don't forget cigarettes and new cars. They ALWAYS have money for a new Cadillac Escalade, plenty of beer, and cigarettes.
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by nemhed »

Buck, forgive me for playing "devil's advocate" here, is there anything to by gained by inventing a high pressure short action "traditional levergun" based on a hybrid of previous designs (92 & 86)? I know this has been hashed out by greater minds than mine, but couldn't a Browning BLR take the 454 or 500 S&W? From a pure design standpoint, wouldn't a front locking bolt design work better. There are plenty of designs that are stronger than traditional leverguns, I don't happen to find them very alluring but some must. I also don't find the new Mossburg levergun very alluring because it just seems to be a blend of Marlin and Winchester and therefore neither fish nor fowl. I find your design to be very interesting, but I'm just trying to wrap my mind around your motivation. Forgive me for talking out of both sides of my mouth.
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by AJMD429 »

How about a Savage 99 action - isn't that up to the .454 Casull pressures...?

If not, could it be easily modified to be so? I'd heard Savage was planning a re-introduction, but that may have just been rumor.
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by kaschi »

Thanks for the info Buck! This would be a super neat lever to own!
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by NonPCnraRN »

Buck Elliott wrote:No -- more like Grizz Territory. You can't be overgunned for those furry, fanged & clawed beasties.
So I wonder why the Puma 454 continues but the 480 Ruger Puma is dc'd? I think they both had their plusses.
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Hobie »

Buck Elliott wrote:
C. Cash wrote:That is one fine looking rifle Buck. It may not be realistic to produce it in this day and age, but I'd add my name to the list of those who would love to see it in production. Is it simply too costly to produce?
There are new ways and means for making such a firearm, but even at that, they won't be cheap. The "ways & means" themselves are what you might call "spendy" investments.

Figure a MSRP of between $1800 and $2100. (YMMV)

It's only money; it's worth less every day, and they still print MORE of it...
This is about how I'm approaching purchases. I figure that the dollar's value has declined about 25% since the beginning of the year (relative to gold) but good guns (i.e. the great older guns, USFAs, Colts, etc.) haven't changed in price since then. Thus, they are cheaper now than they have been.
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Hobie »

AJMD429 wrote:How about a Savage 99 action - isn't that up to the .454 Casull pressures...?

If not, could it be easily modified to be so? I'd heard Savage was planning a re-introduction, but that may have just been rumor.
That was scotched due to the economy.
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Hobie »

nemhed wrote:Buck, forgive me for playing "devil's advocate" here, is there anything to by gained by inventing a high pressure short action "traditional levergun" based on a hybrid of previous designs (92 & 86)? I know this has been hashed out by greater minds than mine, but couldn't a Browning BLR take the 454 or 500 S&W? From a pure design standpoint, wouldn't a front locking bolt design work better. There are plenty of designs that are stronger than traditional leverguns, I don't happen to find them very alluring but some must. I also don't find the new Mossburg levergun very alluring because it just seems to be a blend of Marlin and Winchester and therefore neither fish nor fowl. I find your design to be very interesting, but I'm just trying to wrap my mind around your motivation. Forgive me for talking out of both sides of my mouth.
You are missing the point although you did touch on it. The idea is that people want a rifle of this configuration for these cartridges and NOT another design. Your logic sequence isn't theirs... :wink:

FWIW, I'd like to get one, too!
Sincerely,

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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by nemhed »

Hobie, it wouldn't be the first time I've missed the point and my logic sequence looks like a jigsaw puzzle with 1/4 of the pieces missing. :wink: I'm also no marketing wiz so I would have no clue what people may want. There is obviously a market for these cartridges in hand guns so why not a rifle? What I really want to hear is Buck's thought process on this project which is something he obviously feels passionately about. I'd also like to hear the thoughts of prospective buyers for a gun like this and their intended uses as opposed to current designs available.

Hobie, let me ask you this since I believe you own a Savage 99, which would you rather have a new redesigned 99 from Savage in this type of high pressure cartridge or a hybrid 92/86 design.

I really love the "traditional" levergun designs but rifles such as the new Mossbergs and Henrys don't seem authentic to me. I would put the "Mini-Sharps" in the same category. I'm all in favor of people building, selling, and buying such things, especially if they're a quality product made in the USA. If someone builds a new levergun designed for the high pressure cartridges, I wish them all the luck in the world, I would even stand in line to shoot one. I probably won't have the cash to buy one. :(
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Mike D. »

Without any doubt, the "hybrid '86/'92" would be the choice for me. As much as I like the 99 Savage, it just can't cut it in comparison to those traditional John Browning designed Winchesters. :)
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Hobie »

nemhed wrote:Hobie, let me ask you this since I believe you own a Savage 99, which would you rather have a new redesigned 99 from Savage in this type of high pressure cartridge or a hybrid 92/86 design.
The mid-sized 92/86 gun (the 89) is my preference. I don't think the 99 is appropriate due to cartridge and/or rim diameters. I really don't see a 99 without the rotary magazine either. :wink:
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Buck Elliott »

nemhed wrote:Hobie, it wouldn't be the first time I've missed the point and my logic sequence looks like a jigsaw puzzle with 1/4 of the pieces missing. :wink: I'm also no marketing wiz so I would have no clue what people may want. There is obviously a market for these cartridges in hand guns so why not a rifle? What I really want to hear is Buck's thought process on this project which is something he obviously feels passionately about. I'd also like to hear the thoughts of prospective buyers for a gun like this and their intended uses as opposed to current designs available.

Hobie, let me ask you this since I believe you own a Savage 99, which would you rather have a new redesigned 99 from Savage in this type of high pressure cartridge or a hybrid 92/86 design.

I really love the "traditional" levergun designs but rifles such as the new Mossbergs and Henrys don't seem authentic to me. I would put the "Mini-Sharps" in the same category. I'm all in favor of people building, selling, and buying such things, especially if they're a quality product made in the USA. If someone builds a new levergun designed for the high pressure cartridges, I wish them all the luck in the world, I would even stand in line to shoot one. I probably won't have the cash to buy one. :(
I guess I'm just from the "Old School" when it comes to leverguns -- and most other things too. I recognize the inherent mechanical qualities of the newer designs, i.e.: the Winchester 88 and the BLR, but neither of those iterations fills the "traditional" niche -- at least not in my mind. John Browning's logic still makes a heap of sense to me. To my way of thinking, the new guys at Browning decided to try to make the UGLIEST, clumsiest levergun (read: "modern...") extant, and IMO, they succeeded.

Just like the Casull/Freedom revolver is a modernized Colt SAA, my design is an updated version of the classic Winchesters, scaled to fit a particular class/family of cartridges. The rifle gradually started to take shape in my brain shortly after I read the FIRST .454 Casull article, by P.O. Ackley, in 1959. It took me a long time to develop the knowledge and expertise -- not to mention the opportunity and confidence -- to make the dream a reality.

So, FWIW, there's my thoughts on the matter -- much condensed, mind you, but that is the gist of it.
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Buck

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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by nemhed »

Good enough, Buck, thanks for the reply! I'm sure when FA released it's 454 revolver plenty of people asked "why a single action?".
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Buck Elliott »

FWIW:

The .454 Casull and the .460 S&W cartridges are listed at 65,000 psi, and the .500 S&W at 60,000 psi (SAAMI Max. Average Pressure) but are commercially loaded at around 50,000 to 52,000 psi, in order to operate in (extract from) double-action revolvers... :shock:

Can some one explain to me WHY S&W developed cartridges generating pressures beyond what their own guns could reliably handle...??? It's not that they can't be fired with the max.-pressure stuff, just that extraction --from a double-action revolver -- gets to be a point of interest. Correct chambers would be a big help, but now I reckon I'm asking for more than S&W is willing to give.(?)

Freedom Arms' .454 revolver can be fired with loads at max. pressure, and most-often, the empty cases can fall out merely by tipping the muzzle of the pistol up...

It gets curiouser & curiouser...
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Buck

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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Pete44ru »

FWIW, The manufacturer has updated their "under construction" wbsite, to add a section about their O/U shotgun, and the Model 89 with a pic and this:

"Proudly built in the USA, the Big Horn Armory Model 89 lever-action rifle in .500 S&W Magnum continues the rich legacy of American firearms design and development. Built from the ground-up and solidly engineered using the latest CNC technology, the Model 89 embodies the best of the old Model 86 and Model 92 lever-actions in a modern platform capable of handling the powerful .500 S&W Magnum. Both rifle and carbine models are manufactured with 17-4 stainless steel precision machined and properly hardened to deliver consistent downrange performance and rugged in-the- field dependability. The selected American black walnut stock and forend are fitted with integral front and stud rear sling swivel mounts. The pistol- grip buttstock has a one- inch recoil-taming pad. Stock and forend are given several coats of a durable synthetic satin finish. The standard rifle and carbine are equipped with aperture rear and post front sights. The Model 89's large, hunter-friendly curved- lever enables ease of operation, especially with gloved hands. Honoring the long tradition of great American sporting rifles, the new Model 89 .500 S&W Magnum provides hunters with pride in ownership, and a powerful advantage afield. "
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by nemhed »

Here's the specs from the website:
MODEL 89 SPECIFICATIONS:
description
Rifle Carbine
Barrel Length 22" 18"
Caliber .500 S&W .500 S&W
Rate of Twist 1 in 24" 1 in 24"
Crown Recessed Recessed
Buttstock & Forend American Black Walnut
Optional Maple laminate American Black Walnut
Optional Maple laminate
Checkering Optional 20 lpi Optional 20 lpi
Barreled Action 17-4 Stainless Steel 17-4 Stainless Steel
Metal Finish Hunter Satin Stainless
Optional Hunter Black Hunter Satin Stainless
Optional Hunter Black
Stock Finish Synthetic Satin Synthetic Satin
Recoil Pad 1" 1"
Sling Swivel Mounts Integral Front, Stud Rear Integral Front, Stud Rear
Sights Aperture Rear, Blade Front Aperture Rear, Blade Front
Magazine Capacity 5 7
Length of Pull 14" 14"
Overall Length 41" 37"
Weight 7 lbs. 14 oz. 7 lbs. 10 oz.
CUSTOM SHOP:

In addition to custom alterations for the Model 89, special checkering, engraving, up-graded wood and metal finishes are also available. Options and prices on request.
ACCESSORIES & OPTIONS:

Optional Scout Scope mount
Big Horn Armory logo leather cheekpiece
Big Horn Armory logo buttstock cartridge keeper
Bright front sight
Big Horn Armory logo cap
Big Horn Armory logo shirt
Specifications subject to change without notice.
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Hobie »

Its a pistol grip. Deal killer for me. :(
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by kasTX »

Can some one explain to me WHY S&W developed cartridges generating pressures beyond what their own guns could reliably handle...??? It's not that they can't be fired with the max.-pressure stuff, just that extraction --from a double-action revolver -- gets to be a point of interest.
Given that S&W and CorBon worked together on developing both the 460 S&W and the 500 S&W, I would think it unlikely they would develop a load that their gun could not reliably handle. In my experience running max loads in a 500 I have never experienced anything close to sticky extraction. What loads are giving you problems in your 460 or 500?
Correct chambers would be a big help, but now I reckon I'm asking for more than S&W is willing to give.(?)
Not sure what you are referring to here. What are you saying is wrong with your chambers, and how did you come to that conclusion? What did S&W tell you?
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Re: New Leverage: A .500 S&W Mag Leverguns Available NOW

Post by Buck Elliott »

kasTX wrote:
Can some one explain to me WHY S&W developed cartridges generating pressures beyond what their own guns could reliably handle...??? It's not that they can't be fired with the max.-pressure stuff, just that extraction --from a double-action revolver -- gets to be a point of interest.
Given that S&W and CorBon worked together on developing both the 460 S&W and the 500 S&W, I would think it unlikely they would develop a load that their gun could not reliably handle. In my experience running max loads in a 500 I have never experienced anything close to sticky extraction. What loads are giving you problems in your 460 or 500?

The ammunition manufactureres have universally down-loaded both the .460 and .500 S&W cartridges to the realm of 50,000 to 52,000 psi, in order to facilitate extraction from double-action revolvers. All the reloading data I'm aware of also takes that into consideration. Folks of my aquaintance have tried loading (especially the .460) to the 65,000 psi limit, and have experienced extraction difficulties in the S&W revolver. I'm not privy to their particular load data, other than to know that they consulted with Hornady & Hodgdon to obtain full-pressure recommendations.
Correct chambers would be a big help, but now I reckon I'm asking for more than S&W is willing to give.(?)
Not sure what you are referring to here. What are you saying is wrong with your chambers, and how did you come to that conclusion? What did S&W tell you?
I'm saying that production S&W chambers leave a bit to be desired, as to size & finish, in both calibers. Compared to Freedom Arms' chambers, they look like pipe joints or plumbing fixtures... Multiply that by SIX, and you have sticky extraction, sure as death & taxes... FWIW, S&W hasn't said anything about the problem, other than to recommend loads in the range cited above.
Regards

Buck

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