OT Forgive me but calling all archers.

[Nath]

I know some of ya's use bows and would like your opinions please.

I shoot a Samick recurve @ 42# and use woods. I am noticing my groups seem to be opening up with certain arrows. By the time I have made some up and shot them to identify the dodgy ones I'm kinder thinking/wondering whether to buy some ally's in order to achieve arrow consistency and no I'm not after excuses
Also with them being modular srewing blades on is easy too!

Please tell me what kind of groups you get with your trad bows and woods or ally's or carbons arrows please?

I seem to get three out of six shafts (woods) in a rabbit size targ @ 20 yards pretty regular.

Thanks.

Nath.

[mescalero1]

Sorry Nath,
It has been years since I shot a wood arrow.

[Hobie]

Sounds as if you have either a variation in spine or weight, perhaps both. Consistent arrows with the correct spine (resistance to bending) will be as accurate as the shooter. You might also be varying nock point or have nocks which inconsistently leave the string. Damaged fletching will give problems, too, but good arrows can do surprisingly well at short distances. This can happen with wood or aluminum arrows. 20 yards isn't a great distance for shooting but you're doing pretty well indeed. I've kinda quit due to time and effort to shoot but my goal was to put the arrows into a group that could be grasped with one hand at 25 yards. With practice that is fairly easy to achieve even with plastic vanes.

[cnjarvis]

I think that's the norm. I shoot a Hoyt compound with carbon arrows and I have to do the same thing.

[Old Savage]

My bow is a 1959 Bear Panda 40 lb pull. Haven't shot it in years. 2 out of three in a butter carton at 20 yds back then, don't believe I had more than two arrows the same. You just have to know how each arrow shoots.

29H2
58"
40#

is hand lettered in ink on it. Shot a pidgeon 1st shot in the barn at 75 ft one time - another much closer in the 12 car tractor garage on the farm.

[Modoc ED]

Hi Nath -

I have and shoot (less often now-a-days) a Martin ML-10 Pioneer Longbow. It is rated at 50# (pounds) at 28" and the length of the bow is 68" with a brace height of 6 7/8" - 7 3/8".

My draw length is 30"/31" and as a result when I use the above bow I am pulling approximately 55# (pounds).

I have 18 wood (cedar shaft) arrows left and they are heavy splined arrows. Primarily, I use Easton Aluminum Shaft Arrows. I use the ones that are colored to resemble wood shafts and they are also heavy splined shafts.

In case you're interested, I used to get my Cedar Shaft Arrows from Kustom King Traditional Archery.

http://www.kustom-king.com/

I don't know if they will ship to England but they are definitely worth a look. They put out first rate products and have always been easy to deal with.

I think your groups will spread/shrink depending on how heavy a spline your arrows have (wood or aluminum). I prefer a stiff spline as it allows for less arrow deflection upon the release of the arrow and in my opinion shrinks groups. Off the top of my head I think that what I have done in the past is look at an arrow chart for the correct spline strength to match my draw length and pull weight and then go up two levels for a good, stiff, spline, strength.

Look at the site/link I provided to see if they don't have a arrow selection chart as to spline strength and bow draw weight.

Also look at Easton Arrows.

http://www.eastonarchery.com/

As for Carbon arrows, I just could never get used to using them. I have one carbon arrow. The carbon arrows are pencil thin -- at least the ones I have used have been and I just can't get used to them. Not meaning that that is good or bad. I just don't have any real experience with them.

[Nath]

Thanks guys, fast responses
I to think it is a spine inconsistancy Big H.

Modoc ed, can you tell a differance between wood and ally from the same bow group wise even with your high quality wood'n shafts?

Nath.

[Modoc ED]

Thanks guys, fast responses
I to think it is a spine inconsistancy Big H.

Modoc ed, can you tell a differance between wood and ally from the same bow group wise even with your high quality wood'n shafts?

Nath.

No I can't. I get the same results using either aluminum shaft or wooden shaft arrows from my bow.

Oh, I might add that I use "Feather Vanes" on all my arrows no matter what the shaft material is and not "Plastic Vanes".

[Old Ironsights]

Isn't that a bit light of bow for a Brit?

Whatever happened to a good 'ol 6 Foot 100lb Yew Bow lobbing 1/2" dia iron pointed shafts 200yds?

My my... how far the Empire has fallen...

[ceb]

Nath, are you buying these arrows or are you building them yourself?

I have shot nothing but wood arrows since the early '80s. I went to them then because they were more traditional. I've stayed with them because they just perform so well and I love to build them, part of the sport don't ya know. If I'm on my game I can shoot 3-4" groups at 20-25yds on average, bout the same as shooting a handgun offhand. Longbows and wood arrows are made for each other.

Hobie is right, consistancy is most important. Wood shafting needs to be sorted for spine and weight. Back when I was in the business I would buy shafting by the thousand and then hand spine and weigh each shaft. If you have not done this, you will be amazed at the weight variation in a batch of shafts. I would insure each dozen was matched to a 5# spine range and +- 10 grains if at all possible. I now buy shafts by the hundred and do the same thing, or buy matched shafts by the dozen.

If you are building these yourself, it is also important that the shaft be as straight as possible before cutting nock and point tapers. Most arrow woods are relativly easy to straighten. Also be sure the grain of the wood is oriented the same on each shaft, with the stiffest grain against your bow, when you glue on your nocks. A feather fletch applied in a helical will be more forgiving if shooting of the shelf and when using broadheads. I also agree with Modoc ED, a slightly over spined arrow is better than underspined. you don't state your draw length, but for example if you draw 28" to the back of the head I would recomend a 45-50# spine range.

Wood can be just as accurate as carbon or aluminum, Just takes a bit more to get there.

[bsaride]

What ceb said,

Check that your arrows are straight each time when you shoot (straighten by hand).
The info for making arrows sounds right to me also.

[rjohns94]

I shoot wood out of my two longbows. I get 2 in groups at 10 yards all year long. I get 3 inch groups out 25 yards. Make sure they all have the same spine, that the arrows have the same spine pattern with relation to the cock feather and make sure that the spine weight is 10-15# over your draw weight at your draw length. the biggest single thing for group size is bow hand follow through. In my case, its the left hand. You have to almost exaggerate holding the hand on target well after the release is done. Ensure that your anchor point is consistant, and come to anchor for a split second before your release. Pick a small spot, maybe something the size of the knock of an arrow for aiming. focus on it through your draw, reach your anchor, let it register in your brain you are at anchor, get a smooth release and hold your bow hand. Push and pull is the motion. I shoot woods most of the time but i also have alum. and graphite arrows. switching to a different material won't help unless your wood arrows are not equal spine, or are poorly matched to your bow. If they are, you won't be able to shoot any better.

[Nath]

Once more thanks

Yep I am making my own arrows but admit to not spining them!
Is there a laymans method of spining ?
I also make my own broad heads with a single bevel grind on old band saw blade from work, they do the bis when I get them there
I too use feather.

That is good grouping fellers

100lb long bows It would probs flirt me through the bow!

40lb recurve is fine for what I do with it

Nath.

[Old Ironsights]

Once more thanks

Yep I am making my own arrows but admit to not spining them!
Is there a laymans method of spining ?
I also make my own broad heads with a single bevel grind on old band saw blade from work, they do the bis when I get them there
I too use feather.

That is good grouping fellers

100lb long bows It would probs flirt me through the bow!

40lb recurve is fine for what I do with it

Nath.

Longbows...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTerr5qq ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dypwMBbH ... re=related

[Rusty]

Nath,
One of the things about a recurve is that they are generally more centershot than a longbow. In other words the arrow rests more inline with the string so spine isn't quite as critical but they do still need to be uniform.
I'll admit I shoot a longbow and I do shoot Easton aluminum arrows. I was having trouble getting good shafts a few years ago so I went to a local shop that sells wheelie bows and bought the Eastons so I could keep shooting. They are without a doubt easier to tune to the bow because they ARE so consistent. Personally I think it helps add a little confidence factor to the shooting as well. When I'm down to 4 or 5 of the aluminum arrows left I'll start looking for some woodies again. At 15 yards I only shoot 3 arrows at most for fear of breaking something. Busted knocks can be a pain but an arrow with a dent in it is just ruined. I've got pictures of some of my groups but I'll be danged if I can figure out how to get them here. Archery is just like shooting in that everything needs to be as consistent as possible, but then you know that. If you search on the web there are plans out there for building a home made spine tester. you might check the stickbow web site or tradgang.com and see if they have it listed as a sticky. You might also try weighing each arrow to see how they stack up that way as well. After you get everything sorted out number your arrows and see if they fly the same way every time.

[CowboyTutt]

Once again, the amount of expertise on this forum is simply amazing. You guys have WAY too much time on your hands!

-Tutt

[Rusty]

Tutt it's not that we have so much time, we're just old as dirt.

[Modoc ED]

Of course we are discussing long bows and recurve bows here but I would just like to interject my thoughts on one of the reasons I prefer a long bow and a recurve bow to compound (wheelie) bows.

DRAW LENGTH!!! You can pick up a long bow or a recurve bow and no matter what your draw length is you can use the bow. Yes, the draw weigtht of the bow is nominally set for a particular draw length but you can still use the bow no matter what your draw length is. The only thing effected by the difference in your draw length and the draw length specified on the bow will be the bow weight at the length of your pull. Example: If you have a bow that is rated at 50# at 28" draw length and your draw length is say 30" then when you pull the bow to 30" the actual draw weight will be approximately 55# for that bow.

With a compound bow you are pretty much stuck with the draw length specified on the bow. Yes, some compound bows do provide for some adjustment but not much. When you pull a compound bow, it'll relax at the draw length specified on the bow and if you aren't at your full length of pull you will not get good results when shooting it.

Don't get me wrong. Compound bows are great bows. Much more in the lime light these days. I even had one at one time but since I had been shooting a long bow since I was a kid, I never got really comfortable with it. That was just me and not the bow.

Anyway, just my .02¢

[Bluehawk]

Recurves have a tendency to be less forgiving in the relese than long bows do . That can open up groups as weel. Due to the double curve of the limbs and the tendency for the bow nocks ( where the bow string is connected to each end ) on recurves to be smaller, there can be slight twists to the limbs at full draw and there fore can make shot to shot alignment vary .
Weight as well as spine will certainly make shot to hsot placement vary also .
You need a spine tester to actualy check spine on each shaft . Most are checking 26 inch centers and spine then avaries with the length of the shaft . The longer the shaft the more flex so the less spine. If your buying shafts pre-spined, and you are shooting OVER 28 inch arrows you may need to go to a heavier spine to get consistant flight .
Aluminum arrows wil perform the same way and you need to get the correct shaft for YOUR draw length and weight of bow EG 2316 shafts will flex more than 2117 shafts even though
both may be rated on the chart as OK for your bow and draw length.
This is du e to wall thick ness and over all length .
I prefer wood arrows to do most of my shooting but have at least one dozen alluminum arrows for each bow I own .
I made arrows commercialy for over 15 years and still have about 2000 wood shafts in my garage. I have yet to see any bow compound , recurve or longbow that would not shoot groups that you desire if the arrows were properly fitted and tuned to the bow .

[Nath]

Thanks guys, good imfo

Right then, I took all my shafts and made up arrows including my old ones I use to use for field target to work today.
I made a simple apparatus to check against each other the spines. I batched my remaing bare shafts and then started on my ready arrows.
Turns out that the cock feathers on some were not in the stiffest place and so replaced the nocks in the crrect position all be it a hen feather is now the cock.
After work I was keen to try the arrows when I got home. Expecting an improvement I was dissapointed in that they shot the same! That is with my home made broadheaded shafts.
With my old field target arrows, cedars with a slightly stiffer spine and some effort on my part they seem good.
I am forming an opinion that the shafts I am using for my broadheads are to light in the spine, I can see them fish tailing but the others fly straight.
I will use them up untill they are finnished but I have to make a choice, I have to decide on buying stiffer woods and use my Wensels or swith to ally's.
What I like about woods is they are a little cheaper and give satisfaction making them and they are quite strong.
What I like about ally's is they are modular. One minute I can be shooting piles into a boss and then the next minute I could srew a broadhead in.
Decisions decisions

Nath, thanks.

[Rusty]

Nath,

After I left for work today I thought about something else. I've shot in several matches here we call a Poachers round or a coon shoot depending on who puts them on. Coon shoots are totally in the dark Poachers rounds are shot with the help of a flashlight. I found out quite by accident that for some reason I tend to shoot better at night. I started practicing at night after I get off from work as well. My night time groups are usually smaller than my daytime groups. I shoot with the target illuminated by a flood light on the side of the house.

After re-reading the posts here to see what help others have offered one more thing you can do that will REALLY get you spot on would be to paper tune your arrows. Paper tuning will tell you if you have the spine too light or too heavy and it will tell you if you knock point is too high or too low. A real purest will paper tune the shafts before they even put the fletching on. Instructions for paper tuning can be found on Tradgang.com for sure.

[ceb]

Nath, it doesn't surprise me at all when you say you shoot better an night.(Sorry, it was Rusty that said that, but its still true) A huge part of shooting a bow in the instinctive style is mental concentration. by shooting at night the darkness hides a lot of distractions, making it easier to pick and concentrate on a spot.

You are possibly correct about you broadhead arrows. I always allow at least 5# extra spine for broadheads arrows. If you think about it, you are in effect lengthening the arrows thereby weakening spine. Also, be sure your homemade heads are matched in weight and mounted straight. Point weight has a huge effect on arrow spine.