Switching from jacketed to lead in leverguns questions

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here ... politely.

Moderators: AmBraCol, Hobie

Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Post Reply
User avatar
J Miller
Member Emeritus
Posts: 14880
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:46 pm
Location: Not in IL no more ... :)

Switching from jacketed to lead in leverguns questions

Post by J Miller »

Been pricing and checking availability on jacketed 30-30 bullets. Pickins are getting few and expensive. Too expensive for me to buy them. So I've been thinking about converting my 30-30s over to cast bullets. Then yesterday O.S.O.K. puts in his thread about the Laser Cast being gas check designs and how inexpensive they can be if you seat your own gas checks. I did some research and figured out I can buy 1000 cast 170gr bullets, a 1000 gas checkts, a bullet sizer die for my Lube-A-Matic and a neck expanding die for less than 3/4 of the price of 1000 jacketed bullets. That would leave me enough to buy 2 pounds of powder.

Problem is, I still have quite a supply of jacketed ammo loaded. And I won't be shooting it all up any time soon. What happens if I don't get anal and clean all the jacketed bullet fouling out of the barrels until I shoot up all the jacketed ammo?
Are there any lunatics .... 'er levergunners out there that shoots jacketed and lead bullets from their rifles interchangeably and lives happily ever after?

I mean I don't go through all that trouble with my handgun caliber rifles, is it really really really a must do thing ????

Oh and the other question, is Lyman gas checks crimp on now like the Hornadys are, or are they still the stick on and hope type?

Joe
Last edited by J Miller on Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts ;) .***
Don McDowell

Re: Switching from jacketed to lead in leverguns questions

Post by Don McDowell »

Joe if you don't see any copper highlites on the rifling you'll likely be ok,or get green/blue patches out of the bore when using a copper solvent. Just be sure the bullets fit well, and a couple swipes of lead free cloth before going back to jacketed won't be a bad idea.
Yes I shoot both thru my 30-30's and my 405.
Chuck 100 yd
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6972
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:52 pm
Location: Ridgefield WA. USA

Re: Switching from jacketed to lead in leverguns questions

Post by Chuck 100 yd »

I agree with Don. I think this "get all the copper out" thing is over rated. I just clean my rifles normaly and have great results when changing bullet metals. I think a lot of poor results are blamed on copper fouling when the problem is actually poor cast bullet fit or lack of proper load development ( otherwise known as trying enough stuff to find what it likes )! :D
Don McDowell

Re: Switching from jacketed to lead in leverguns questions

Post by Don McDowell »

I think Chucks right alot of folks "leading" problems come from poor fitting bullets lubed with crappy commercial lube, and whole host of other things , like trying to throw in to much crimp, not flaring the case.....
User avatar
Mike D.
***Rock Star***
Posts: 4234
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Northern CA

Re: Switching from jacketed to lead in leverguns questions

Post by Mike D. »

I have never had any problems with going back and forth between lead and jacketed bullets in any of my leverguns. I don't understand what the issue is. :)
"Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale, and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or hanged"....President Abraham Lincoln
User avatar
J Miller
Member Emeritus
Posts: 14880
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:46 pm
Location: Not in IL no more ... :)

Re: Switching from jacketed to lead in leverguns questions

Post by J Miller »

Mike D. wrote:I have never had any problems with going back and forth between lead and jacketed bullets in any of my leverguns. I don't understand what the issue is. :)
Mike, that has been my thoughts too. I can understand bore cleanliness for a bench rest rifle. But for a regular rifle like a lever gun or a hunting bolt gun, what's the problem?
I've switched back and forth in my handguns and handgun caliber rifles for decades and the accuracy was not noticeably affected. So I wonder what all the fuss is about.


Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts ;) .***
User avatar
Grizz
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 11808
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:15 pm

Re: Switching from jacketed to lead in leverguns questions

Post by Grizz »

Mike D. wrote:I have never had any problems with going back and forth between lead and jacketed bullets in any of my leverguns. I don't understand what the issue is. :)

ditto.

but a question, why do you want gas checks? you could save a whole lot more scrip by shooting plain base bullets. cast properly hard and sized a thou over groove size you won't get leading at 30-30 velocities.

I shot plain base in my .44 for years before I ever heard of gas checks, ignorance is bliss, eh?

gas checks are a passing fad
:lol:

Grizz
User avatar
KirkD
Desktop Artiste
Posts: 4406
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:52 am
Location: Central Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: Switching from jacketed to lead in leverguns questions

Post by KirkD »

Don McDowell wrote:Joe if you don't see any copper highlites on the rifling you'll likely be ok,or get green/blue patches out of the bore when using a copper solvent. Just be sure the bullets fit well, and a couple swipes of lead free cloth before going back to jacketed won't be a bad idea.
Yes I shoot both thru my 30-30's and my 405.
+1 ..... I have been shooting both through my 30-30, although the jacketed are just about used up and once they are, I'll be shooting exclusively cast GC.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
Both94sPlus
Levergunner
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:01 pm
Location: Ridgecrest, CA USA

Re: Switching from jacketed to lead in leverguns questions

Post by Both94sPlus »

The 44-40, 44 Mag, and 45-70 have slower twist rates than the 30-30 has, and I've found that the gas check application helps prevent skidding over/through the rifling by the bullet. Not sure how that works, but the much harder gas check "grabs" the lands and likely gets pushed very firmly against the bullet's base during the projectiles accelleration up the bore.

Also, at a point where pressures enable velocities of 1400-1500 FPS, that same pressure is capable of overcoming bullet alloy plastic limit yield strength--blowing past the bullet sidewall--and creating a leaded bore. Poorly-fitted bullets exacerbate that tendency.

Finally, gas checks enable cheaper alloys like wheelweights to be used successfully in high-pressure applications like the 30-30 rifle--in my case, to 1900 FPS before accuracy went south. Using 92/6/2 alloy for the bullets, I can shoot cast bullets to the safe velocity limit of the caliber (2150 FPS/170 grain bullets) with accuracy like that of jacketed bullets.

If you run the castings at 1500-1600 FPS, the need to remove all the copper fouling isn't critical. Most 30-30s don't usually copper-foul very badly, anyway--they aren't 220 Swifts. If you want to run your castings at 2100 FPS, it's best to de-copper the bore a bit, and to pre-lube the cleaned barrel by firing 5-10 loads running 1500-1600 FPS before getting the full-potential loads into the mix.

I haven't fired more than 50 jacketed loads in my 30-30s over the past 5 years.
User avatar
Modoc ED
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3332
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:17 am
Location: Northeast CA (Alturas, CA)

Re: Switching from jacketed to lead in leverguns questions

Post by Modoc ED »

J Miller wrote:
Mike D. wrote:I have never had any problems with going back and forth between lead and jacketed bullets in any of my leverguns. I don't understand what the issue is. :)
Mike, that has been my thoughts too. I can understand bore cleanliness for a bench rest rifle. But for a regular rifle like a lever gun or a hunting bolt gun, what's the problem?
I've switched back and forth in my handguns and handgun caliber rifles for decades and the accuracy was not noticeably affected. So I wonder what all the fuss is about.


Joe
Squeaky clean is crazy Joe!!! I don't know how many articles I've read or been told by people to get my barrels absolutely squeak clean and then the last thing said is that once you have your barrels squeaky clean, be sure to fire 5 or 6 fouling shots through the barrel before verifying sight-in and going hunting.

Heck, I just clean the barrel until it looks clean to me and then go shooting. I've never tried to get every last bit of copper or lead out of my barrels and my rifles shoot just fine.
ED
Image
Yer never too old
JDL
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 176
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:55 pm
Location: La.

Re: Switching from jacketed to lead in leverguns questions

Post by JDL »

Last year, I had been shooting jacketed through my .358 when I decided that cast were better for my purposes. I felt lazy and didn't want to spend the time cleaning so I just loaded my known cast load and shot 6 rounds to sight in. Whoopee, they shot just fine and I didn't have to waste my time cleaning. Next day, after loading more, I began shooting and after fireing one group, my shots began flying wild. Next group was over 6" so I looked down the bore and saw a very leaded bore and spent the rest of the day and part of the next cleaning. The last gun that leaded this bad for me was a .357 that I was shooting factory magnum loads in back in the early '70s which was long before jacketed bullets were popular in handguns . Some rifles may not display this trait but, I know for certain that I will never do it again with this particular rifle.
JDL
Rusty
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 9528
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:37 pm
Location: Central Fla

Re: Switching from jacketed to lead in leverguns questions

Post by Rusty »

I think it varies from bore to bore. If you have a smooth bore you won't have any problems. If it's leading or grabs copper try polishing it.
If you're gonna be stupid ya gotta be tough-
Isiah 55:8&9

It's easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled.
User avatar
KirkD
Desktop Artiste
Posts: 4406
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:52 am
Location: Central Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: Switching from jacketed to lead in leverguns questions

Post by KirkD »

Modoc ED wrote:Heck, I just clean the barrel until it looks clean to me and then go shooting. I've never tried to get every last bit of copper or lead out of my barrels and my rifles shoot just fine.
+1 If I take a look down the bore and it looks clean and shiny, I shoot them.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
JustaJeepGuy
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1079
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:13 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: Switching from jacketed to lead in leverguns questions

Post by JustaJeepGuy »

Paper-patched cast bullets, anyone?
A man's admiration for absolute government is proportionate to the contempt he feels for those around him.

Alexis de Tocqueville
Paul Jenkins
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 212
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:45 pm
Location: Wilmington, De.

Re: Switching from jacketed to lead in leverguns questions

Post by Paul Jenkins »

Gentlemen,
If you want the BEST accuracy out of your rfles Thourough cleaning is a must . Bench rest shooters have prooven this . The downside is that Cleaning wears barrels faster than shooting. If you only hunt , 3" at 100 yds is adequate. For competition target work, less than 1 MOA is better. I have an '86 Browning and an '85 Browning that shoot slightly under 3/4" at 100 yds when clean, from a bench and when I hunt, I KNOW I can place my bullets.
Post Reply