Why would SAAMI lower pressures on an established cartridge?

[awp101]

I was looking through my "one caliber" load book on the .22 Hornet and a couple of entries mentioned SAAMI had lowered the acceptable pressures for the Hornet. The numbers escape me offhand but IIRC it was around 10% give or take...

Why?

[Old Ironsights]

Because they, like everyone else, are Lawyer Fearing weenies...

[awp101]

OK, I forgot the obvious reason...why else?

[JimT]

A lot of the old pressure data was not accurate.

[awp101]

Hmmm, OK.

I went back and got it out, I had slightly misremembered. It's one of those One Book/One Caliber bound notepad type things, copyright 2004. Speer is the only one that mentions the reduction but it was in but the rifle and handgun data which meant I DID remember two mentions of it. I just forgot they were from the same source...

Anyway it says the drop was from 47,000 cup to 43,000 cup which makes for a what, 9% reduction? Speer even claims velocities with some powders are no better than a 22WMR FWIW.

[gundownunder]

Maybe to protect older guns from damage. I believe a few years ago they did the same with the 30-30. As the guns age metal fatigue and other wear and tear starts to weaken them and I guess saami wants to protect people from harming themselves. No doubt the drop in CUP would not be as important in modern firearms in good condition.

[Old Ironsights]

Maybe to protect older guns from damage. I believe a few years ago they did the same with the 30-30. As the guns age metal fatigue and other wear and tear starts to weaken them and I guess saami wants to protect people from harming themselves. No doubt the drop in CUP would not be as important in modern firearms in good condition.

Yeah, every year old (bp) guns get more and more iffy... so they (as usual) punish the innocent to protect the dumb.

[JimT]

You know OI, you are nice guy except for that totally negative outlook. I worry about you.

SAAMI does not punish anyone. They set the standards for manufacturers. These are based upon the weakest firearm available. And they are set using the latest techniques available.

The copper crusher method of ascertaining pressures has been known for years to have drawbacks. The new technologies have allowed more precise measurements of pressure which has resulted in changing some.

It's a good thing we have SAAMI.

In 1972 there was a concerted effort to place the manufacture of ammuntion under the Consumer Products Safety Commission. Congress said at that time "The Consumer Product Safety Commission shall make no ruling or order that restricts the manufacture or sale of firearms, ammunition, including black powder or gun powder, for firearms." and has not backed off that position thankfully.

As anti-gun as the CPSC is, we would be in a world of hurt if they were in charge.

[86er]

There is a Dr. on the board at SAAMI that I associate with from time to time. Dr. Dave has told me that manufacturers often supply a list of changes or findings for their products, including powder manufactuers. Although voluntary, SAAMI encourages the submission of the information. Dr. Dave said the most common, but not the only reason SAAMI changes stated pressures is due to a change in powder profiles. The next most common reason is when a combination of components changes profiles, such as primer temp, brass thickness, etc. They recently reviewed 450-400 3" because Hornady was introducing a modern cartridge. They started with a .409 bullet. Well the cartridge has historically been loaded with .411 bullets and then with .410 by another European company. Likewise, the firearms in this caliber varied somewhat. Being a British nitro cartridge, SAAMI never got into suggestions for it, until it was reintroduced in modern form by a US company.

Sorry I didn't answer specifically related to 22 Hornet but I hope I provided some insight. When I speak to the Doc again I'll ask him, out of curiosity.

[Nath]

Early Hornets had .223" barrels and most reloading bullets are .224" thus raising pressure. Thin brass and a bad case for stretching means that sometimes at the high end of pressure the head can seperate, this did not matter before reloading became so popular.

Nath.

[Slick13]

Yeah, every year old (bp) guns get more and more iffy... so they (as usual) punish the innocent to protect the dumb.

How are you being punished? There's nothing to stop you from running your reloads as hot as you like.

~Michael

[Old Ironsights]

Yeah, every year old (bp) guns get more and more iffy... so they (as usual) punish the innocent to protect the dumb.

How are you being punished? There's nothing to stop you from running your reloads as hot as you like.

~Michael

If/when SAAMI lowers their pressures, then OEM manufacturers lower theirs to comply with the new standards - which negatively impacts known velocities for OEM cartridges.

A decent OEM offering one year could be stuff the next because they made the load "safe" for guns that should really only be handloaded for.

Just think about why .45-70 Factory loads are so wimpy... because they have to be shootable to Trapdoor SAAMI spec.

That is making a product less available because some unknown bozo might stuff a clearly marked hot-n-heavy in his grandad's Springer, blow it up and sue the pants off the ammo mfg because he was too dumb to read &/or pay attention.

In that respect, the ammo buying public is being punished for the stupidity of others.

[Slick13]

A lot of the old pressure data was not accurate.

I always point to the example of Hodgdon's reload data for the .25-35 with 4895 and the 117 gr Hornady. A couple years ago when I started reloading the listed max was 27 grains of 4895. It's now 22.5 gr. Someone screwed up somewhere. When a screw up or incorrect data is found, you fix it.

I caught hell here a while ago for questioning Alliant's reloading data (mostly in regard to velocities) for the .30-30 with 170 grain bullets and Reloder 7 and 15. Their website reloading data is currently down, but in the most recent (2008) Alliant print reloading guide, it doesn't list either powder with the 170 grain bullet, just Reloder 10x. The compressed 34 grain max load they used to list for Reloder 15 with the 170 grain bullet, is now their max load with the 150 grain bullet. What changed?

~Michael

[Slick13]

If/when SAAMI lowers their pressures, then OEM manufacturers lower theirs to comply with the new standards - which negatively impacts known velocities for OEM cartridges.

A decent OEM offering one year could be stuff the next because they made the load "safe" for guns that should really only be handloaded for.

Just think about why .45-70 Factory loads are so wimpy... because they have to be shootable to Trapdoor SAAMI spec.

That is making a product less available because some unknown bozo might stuff a clearly marked hot-n-heavy in his grandad's Springer, blow it up and sue the pants off the ammo mfg because he was too dumb to read &/or pay attention.

In that respect, the ammo buying public is being punished for the stupidity of others.

How much OEM ammunition do you shoot a year (other than .22LR)?

How many OEM loads have you had go from good to stuff because of SAAMI lowering pressures?

I didn't realize good business sense was punishing consumers. I thought consumers had the ability to pick and choose, and in the case of shooters, the ability to roll their own.

~Michael