About that Ole sixgun empty chamber

[Pat C]

Courtesy of Sturm Ruger Co.

[OldWin]

I remember that add.
I also remember thinking the last thing I would do is put paper in a chamber.
Last thing you'd need is something to hold moisture in your chamber.
Second to last is something floating around in there that would tie the gun up. Let alone that now you have a specific chamber that has to be left empty.

Anyone thinking that was a good idea may has well have pre-paid his burying expenses anyway.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I often carry a sixgun and have never felt the need to store anything in that empty chamber.

Don’t you imagine that if you had money in there that black powder would have set it on fire?

[JimT]

The only time I had any paper in an empty chamber was in 1972 or 73. My Uncle came to visit. i had gotten married in 72 and he brought me a present. A Ruger Blackhawk 7 1/2" in .45 Colt. There was $50 in one chamber when I opened the loading gate and spun the cylinder. All the other chambers were empty.

I have carried the "Old Model" Rugers and Colt SAA's and their copies since way back when. Never had a problem with them and prefer them to the "New Model" .. just because that was what I was raised on. And yes, I do have some "New Models" and they are wonderful sixguns.

[Sixgun]

You should never have anything to remind you of anything on a firearm…..the idea is to stay focused.

Jim T and I come from the same generation and thinking….5 in the cylinder, old model Rugers, 44 Spl.,………. Funny thing though, I bet most gun savvy people don’t need to be told about loading five but it’s a good bet, when using old lever actions 99% of people load the chamber and use the safety notch. It’s the same thing, relying on a tiny notch.

Mr. Deer…please stand still while I chamber a round.——-…That little thing on most guns, the “safety” isn’t really a safety.

[OldWin]

Me too!
The only New Model I have left is a 6 and a half inch in .41.
All the rest are Old Models or Colts. Even my .22s.
I don't have anything against the NMs, I just like the OMs better. Matter of fact, I had a 4.75" 45 Colt NM that I traded off I wish I had back.

[jeepnik]

I’m no historian. But I would imagine that any soldier facing an enemy loaded all six chambers. I suspect a law enforcement official facing possible multiple miscreants would as well.

Perhaps a working cowboy or recreational outdoorsman might feel comfortable loading down a revolver cylinder.

From personal experience I know just about everyone carrying a 1911 started with a round in the chamber and a full magazine. The same could be said for the M14. While quite a few downloaded M16 magazines a round or two for reliability. Even so, I didn’t know anyone who went about their business with the chamber empty.

So did everyone carry a sixgun loaded with five. Doubtful. Just as it’s doubtful everyone carried six. Like many things personal situations likely determined how the revolver was carried.

To add to this, I haven’t seen any official military doctrine that mandates an empty. If anyone has a copy of such, please post it. But remember, soldiers are notorious for doing what they think is best for their personal situation. Rules are fine on the parade ground but expedience rules outside the camp.

[Pat C]

You have to realize this is a Ruger add dated after they had already been sued for accidental discharge.
I was reading one case as late as 2014 where they were sued because a man had fully loaded old model Blackhawk riding an ATV checking game Camara, hit a rough patch revolver fell out of his holster and discharged shooting him through the ankle.

Never been in a situation where I carried or stowed and old model Ruger or Colt with hammer resting on half cock over a loaded round. Especially someone working on horseback or ATV.

Hunting I carried 1892 and 1894 Winchesters on many hunts.
Chambered a round once I got on stand with Hammer on half cock . Also still hunted that way with thumb on hammer whole time.

As far as what the old timers did, don't know any that are around to ask.

[Grizz]

does the S&W DA require loading 5 for safety?

[JimT]

does the S&W DA require loading 5 for safety?

Not any that I have ever used. I am not sure about the very early ones.

[JimT]

You have to realize this is a Ruger add dated after they had already been sued for accidental discharge.
I was reading one case as late as 2014 where they were sued because a man had fully loaded old model Blackhawk riding an ATV checking game Camara, hit a rough patch revolver fell out of his holster and discharged shooting him through the ankle.

it's amazing how we have accepted that our stupid mistakes are someone else's fault.

[Grizz]

does the S&W DA require loading 5 for safety?

Not any that I have ever used. I am not sure about the very early ones.

thanks Jim. it's a rhetorical question, my smiths have hammer spurs and some sort of trigger interlock . . . but I don't know how they work.

[JimT]

does the S&W DA require loading 5 for safety?

Not any that I have ever used. I am not sure about the very early ones.

thanks Jim. it's a rhetorical question, my smiths have hammer spurs and some sort of trigger interlock . . . but I don't know how they work.

This might help ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLD3IX4eXKk

[Pat C]

You have to realize this is a Ruger add dated after they had already been sued for accidental discharge.
I was reading one case as late as 2014 where they were sued because a man had fully loaded old model Blackhawk riding an ATV checking game Camara, hit a rough patch revolver fell out of his holster and discharged shooting him through the ankle.

it's amazing how we have accepted that our stupid mistakes are someone else's fault.

I was pretty surprised that this case went to court over an Old Model accident in 2014

[OldWin]

Colts and OM Rugers have always been carried with 5 by me. When I carry a SA revolver, it's usually in the woods, and many times in a holster with no retention. I carried NMs with 6, but still prefer OMs and Colts, even with a round less.
Myself and everyone else here have always carried Winchester and Marlin LA rifles with a round in the chamber. I'd never even heard of carrying one with an empty chamber in a hunting situation. Makes zero sense, at least here. Shots come too close and fast. I can see this practice for horse or vehicle transport, however.
The safety notch on Winchester LA rifles also looks much more robust than it appears to me on most revolvers.

[Pat C]

Colts and OM Rugers have always been carried with 5 by me. When I carry a SA revolver, it's usually in the woods, and many times in a holster with no retention. I carried NMs with 6, but still prefer OMs and Colts, even with a round less.
Myself and everyone else here have always carried Winchester and Marlin LA rifles with a round in the chamber. I'd never even heard of carrying one with an empty chamber in a hunting situation. Makes zero sense, at least here. Shots come too close and fast. I can see this practice for horse or vehicle transport, however.
The safety notch on Winchester LA rifles also looks much more robust than it appears to me on most revolvers.

Only time I carried Winchester unloaded was going in or coming out when dark . No need for one on chamber then.
Still hunting yes .

[OldWin]

Colts and OM Rugers have always been carried with 5 by me. When I carry a SA revolver, it's usually in the woods, and many times in a holster with no retention. I carried NMs with 6, but still prefer OMs and Colts, even with a round less.
Myself and everyone else here have always carried Winchester and Marlin LA rifles with a round in the chamber. I'd never even heard of carrying one with an empty chamber in a hunting situation. Makes zero sense, at least here. Shots come too close and fast. I can see this practice for horse or vehicle transport, however.
The safety notch on Winchester LA rifles also looks much more robust than it appears to me on most revolvers.

Only time I carried Winchester unloaded was going in or coming out when dark . No need for one on chamber then.
Still hunting yes .

Yup. Agreed.
When I was kid, EVERYONE carried these carbines. All the oldtimers did the same things, with almost universally with the same equipment. No matter what else, these old woodsmen could run a Winchester carbine like it was part of them. Shots on moving targets in thick woods is no small feat. I will NEVER be their equal at this, but just didn't have the same necessity. I DID, however, have the good sense to listen and observe carefully their instruction on the use of these wonderful tools.

[JimT]

I've always made it a practice when carrying a single action, hammer down on an empty chamber. If things looked like they may get "interesting" I slipped a 6th cartridge in if I had time. I spent a lot of time on horses when I was younger and always used a holster that held the sixgun securely, even if I was upside down.

When hunting on horseback I had occasion where I was riding up on game and I would pull the levergun from the scabbard, jack a shell in the chamber, let the hammer down to half-cock and hold it across my lap as I rode closer. I did not keep one in the chamber when it was in the scabbard.

Reading Josie Earp's book "I MARRIED WYATT EARP" she recounts as the men walked up to the cowboys in Tombstone on that fateful day almost everyone heard Virgil say "Hold on! I didn't mean that!" and they thought he was talking to the cowboys. He was talking to Morgan and Doc who had just cocked their guns in their holsters. That was done more than most folks know. It speeded up the draw and fire quite a lot.

[Griff]

I learned my 1911 manual of arms in the Navy... we were taught to carry in condition four, full magazines in pouch, hammer down on empty chamber. On board ship, stood many a quarterdeck watch that way, both stateside and overseas. Gearing up for a mission, it changed to condition one. When I bought my first SA, the gun store owner asked if I was familiar with the SAA. I said no, and he showed me the load one, skip one, load four, pull the hammer full cock and lower it onto the empty chamber. I still do the same. When I step outside carrying a 1911, I'm departing on a mission, so condition one it is.

I've only hunted with a Winchester 94 from a stand... climbing up or down is best with an empty chamber. Once settled, chambered & on ½ cock. Pull back to full cock with finger on trigger to still that last "click"... game is often right on top of you, ANY NOISE & you're making a VERY quick shot, or a running shot! I've never been able to predict when game will freeze at a noise, or take off at full speed.

[OldWin]

Good point Griff! I was shown to hold the trigger back while coming to full cock, then releasing the trigger by the old timers. Probably don't fit today's safety protocol, but those boys was more concerned with meat than safety.
As to getting into stands, I just slip the bolt out of battery while getting in. It's much quieter and saves messing a little messing around.

[Walt]

Grizz, New Model Rugers and Smiths can both be loaded safely with 6 rounds. However, they use different systems to make that possible. Ruger utilizes a transfer bar which is struck by the hammer and then imparts the strike to the firing pin. The transfer bar rises into position as the trigger is pulled. If the hammer drops without the trigger in the rearward position it will harmlessly hit the frame of the gun and not result in a discharge.

Smith and Wesson uses a hammer block system which is entirely different. A bar indirectly linked to the trigger rests between the frame and the hammer, preventing contact with the firing pin. The reason the hammer rebounds a bit in a Smith when releasing the trigger after firing is that the hammer block moves up to prevent contact with the firing pin. Rearward movement of the trigger moves the hammer block down and out from between the frame and the hammer, allowing contact with the firing pin.

I load only five rounds in every revolver that's used recreationally. I use the load one, skip one procedure in my Colts, Old Model Rugers and Freedom Arms but it's not necessary with New Model Rugers. The cylinder will rotate back so that it clicks on the fifth round loaded, then when the hammer is pulled back and slowly let down it will rest on an empty chamber.

[JimT]

Freedom Arms revolvers have a hammer block system that allows all chamber to be carried loaded safely.

Edit: Freedom Arms says to carry the gun with the hammer down on an empty chamber. There have been situations where the gun was dropped or hammered or something and it fired. The Model 97 has a transfer bar. Apparently so do the new Model 83's though I cannot say for certain. Someone else will have to speak to that. Paco and I had some of the first 454's and always carried them fully loaded. The hammer did not rest on the firing pin when it was down and we never had an issue with ours in all the years of shooting them.

[jeepnik]

Remember, company lawyers have to protect the company from suits resulting not just from accidents but manufactured accidents. Note, not manufacturing accidents but those created for the purpose of filing suits.

[stretch]

I only own "modern" SA and DA revolvers with transfer bars, so I load all six.

1911s and HiPowers I carry cocked with a round in the chamber and the safety on.

DA autos I carry with the chamber loaded.

Leverguns are carried with a round in the chamber and the hammer at half-cock while hunting.
My Marlins withe the cross bolt safety are carried with the safety OFF. Why? For darned sure
I'll forget to do 2 things when I see game! One thing I can remember in the midst of buck fever!

-Stretch

[Grizz]

I only own "modern" SA and DA revolvers with transfer bars, so I load all six.

1911s and HiPowers I carry cocked with a round in the chamber and the safety on.

DA autos I carry with the chamber loaded.

Leverguns are carried with a round in the chamber and the hammer at half-cock while hunting.
My Marlins withe the cross bolt safety are carried with the safety OFF. Why? For darned sure
I'll forget to do 2 things when I see game! One thing I can remember in the midst of buck fever!

-Stretch

We do the same. EXCEPT when passing a rifle through a fence or up or downhill where we need all hands and feet in very steep spots I will unload both guns, pass them to the first to get to stable ground, climb or fall, whichever comes first, and then reload when it's safe to do so. If I had guns with slings I would still unload them because you can't avoid having the muzzle pointing at someone. Have not had to do this often because I usually hunt alone. I carried a bit of ground line so I could lower my rifle down, and once after a shot deer had died and gone about 75 feet down slope I tossed the rifle into deep snow near the deer. ( ) The muzzle was always taped to keep rain and snow and moss and sticks out of it. My goal was getting TO the deer without sliding a hundred feet past the deer.

I do not trust the "safeties" on bolt action guns for various reasons, and unload them when I have to use a rifle for a hiking stick . . .

...grizz

[JimT]

I remember a story about a cop who carried a 1911 cocked and locked. A lady once asked him, "Isn't that dangerous?" and he replied, "Yes ma'am, it is!"

[Scott Tschirhart]

When I started with Houston we wore flap holsters. Carried cocked and locked 1911s and Browning Hi-Powers and nobody said a thing. Out of sight, out of mind.

When we switched to security holsters some people freaked out! Seems like there have always been Karens who lose their minds over anything.

[jeepnik]

One of the great things about being an armed civilian is the freedom of choice I have in the handguns I carry. I actually feel sorry for law enforcement as they are required to carry less effective handguns based solely on the determination of lawyers.

[kaschi]

It's mysterious (to me at least) that the Colt SA 1873 revolver in 44-40 was referred to as "Frontier Six Shooter" and not "Frontier Five Shooter".

[jeepnik]

It's mysterious (to me at least) that the Colt SA 1873 revolver in 44-40 was referred to as "Frontier Six Shooter" and not "Frontier Five Shooter".

Perhaps because folks who knew how to use them carried them with six.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Perhaps I don’t know what I am doing. But I’m comfortable carrying only five in a Colt SAA or Old Model Ruger.

I’m all for letting other people scratch their own itch in whatever way they see fit.

[OldWin]

Perhaps I don’t know what I am doing. But I’m comfortable carrying only five in a Colt SAA or Old Model Ruger.

I’m all for letting other people scratch their own itch in whatever way they see fit.

Yeah, me too.

[JimT]

It's mysterious (to me at least) that the Colt SA 1873 revolver in 44-40 was referred to as "Frontier Six Shooter" and not "Frontier Five Shooter".

Nothing mysterious about it. It has always referred to the number of chambers the pistol has. It has never referred to how many you should load. Thus the 5-chambered revolvers are never called a "six-shooter" nor are they called a "4-shooter" when the factory says you should only load 4 chambers ....

[jeepnik]

But, the original manufacturer of the Colt SAA didn’t say that.

[J Miller]

Load One, Skip One, Load 4; pull the hammer back and lower it on the empty chamber.

That mantra was first heard by my teenage ears way back a couple of millennia ago in a gun shop called "The Gun Room" formerly Wades Gun Shop down on McDowell road somewhere near 18th ST, right next to the old Bekins Moving building. This was in the moderately big metropolis of Phoenix. Jim T might remember it ... maybe.

There was and old guy that worked in there named Van that was probably in his 70's then. He befriended me and with the other fellows there taught me about "Load One, Skip One, Load Four.
This was before the Nazi GCA68 was passed, before Ruger chambered the Blackhawk in .45 Colt, before the infamous NM Blackhawk was born, in other words ...... a long time ago.

At about the same time there was an ancient cowboy actor chasing a bad guy called Lucky Ned Pepper, that had a goofy young gal tagging along with him. She asked him why he carried his Colt with an empty chamber. His answer; "So I won't shoot my foot off". Then he tells her, if you sense trouble coming, load the sixth chamber, or words to that effect.

I have lived by that mantra since then. Never had an AD/ND with and old style single action revolver.
The only AD/ND I ever had with a single action revolver was with a New Model Blackhawk. To this day I don't know how I managed to accomplish that, other than I tried to manipulate the gun like an old model and fired it.

My training over ruled my brain and ..... KABOOM!
9 grains of Unique behind a 265 gr Keith bullet makes one h e l l of a noise in a small bedroom.

After that I got rid of the new models and haven't owned one since.

Now, as for carrying money in the empty chamber I asked myself the same question: won't the money be burned when you fire the gun?
Short answer; No.
Longer answer; The edges got singed.
I took some writing paper made from recycled currency, printed something on it, cut it to the same size as money, and put it in the 6th chamber surrounded by black powder ammo. No problem.
Then I took another one and put it in the 6th chamber surrounded by 5 Keith loads and shot all of them. Again, no problem.
( I do have pics of those singed pieces of paper, but I haven't found them yet. )

So I suppose keeping burial money in the 6th chamber was possible, but I'd rather keep it empty so I could load that 6th round if I needed it.

Joe

[Pat C]

The early Colt SAA manual says if your SAA is new or not abused it is safe to carry on safety notch with all six chambers loaded. You can see in these manuals late 50's - 80's the trend toward same as Ruger.

[gamekeeper]

Interesting post Joe...

[JimT]

"The Gun Room" formerly Wades Gun Shop down on McDowell road somewhere near 18th ST, right next to the old Bekins Moving building. This was in the moderately big metropolis of Phoenix. Jim T might remember it ... maybe.

Now, as for carrying money in the empty chamber I asked myself the same question: won't the money be burned when you fire the gun?
Short answer; No.
Longer answer; The edges got singed.

I remember Wades Gun Shop. And the Jewel Box Pawn Shop on S. First Ave. downtown. My Dad visited them often.

As for paper in the chamber, the flame from a cartridge firing is intense but not of the duration required to ignite paper or cloth. Unless black powder is the charge and burning grains are blown into the paper or cloth. Heavy charges of smokeless have a large flame but it's just milliseconds. This is a screen capture of a video we took in the shop .. firing my 1 3/4" barrel S&W 340 .357 with 20 gr. of WC820 and a 125 gr. JHP. You've probably seen it as I have posted it before. On the video and to my eyes it was just a quick flash. It won't set paper on the backstop on fire.

bang.JPG

[Grizz]

The early Colt SAA manual says if your SAA is new or not abused it is safe to carry on safety notch with all six chambers loaded. You can see in these manuals late 50's - 80's the trend toward same as Ruger.

thanks. THANKS! First time I've ever heard of a safety notch other than the half-cock position. Learned something neat today, could be a money-maker at the pub . . .

[Pat C]

It should be noted in the Colt manual it says excessive force on the safety notch excess of 35 lbs or more is all that's needed to break off the notch resulting in accidental discharge.

[Pat C]

Colt SAA manuals describing the function.

[JimT]

I've seen quite a few old Colt SAA's with either the "safety" notch or the half-cock notch broken .. sometimes both. Also seen the trigger break instead of the half-cock notch. I've never broken any one of the three, but then, I've always been pretty lucky.

[Scott Tschirhart]

If you carry with five in the gun and the hammer down on an empty chamber you are unlike to break any notches.

I’ve had a stirrup drop and hit my gun belt. Could have easily hit a hammer spur.

How many Smith & Wesson rear sights have you seen with the right half of the blade broken off in the holsters of street cops? I’ve seen a few.

[jeepnik]

So, Colt said it’s okay to load six. The United States Army said it’s okay. But the current “wisdom” is it’s not okay.

Sort of reminds me of the old saying “if you tell a lie long enough and loud enough it becomes the truth”.

[JimT]

So, Colt said it’s okay to load six. The United States Army said it’s okay. But the current “wisdom” is it’s not okay.

Sort of reminds me of the old saying “if you tell a lie long enough and loud enough it becomes the truth”.

I don't know about the "safety" notch but I have fired single actions (Colt and Ruger) from half-cock and they will go off just fine!

[Pat C]

So, Colt said it’s okay to load six. The United States Army said it’s okay. But the current “wisdom” is it’s not okay.

Sort of reminds me of the old saying “if you tell a lie long enough and loud enough it becomes the truth”.

Even Colt changed their minds over 50 years ago on this subject .1972 manual says to only load five cartridges,placing hammer on an empty chamber.

The later manuals tell you that a force of 35lbs or more is all it takes to break the safety notch off.

[jeepnik]

So, Colt said it’s okay to load six. The United States Army said it’s okay. But the current “wisdom” is it’s not okay.

Sort of reminds me of the old saying “if you tell a lie long enough and loud enough it becomes the truth”.

Even Colt changed their minds over 50 years ago on this subject .1972 manual says to only load five cartridges,placing hammer on an empty chamber.

The later manuals tell you that a force of 35lbs or more is all it takes to break the safety notch off.

Imagine that in the 1970's as lawyers began suing for any excuse they could find corporate lawyers applied pressure and a position held for almost 100 years was changed. Gee, color me surprised.

[Walt]

Scott, what's the reason for the right side of Smith rear sights to break off in police holsters? Is that from the officer falling on the gun?

[Scott Tschirhart]

Sometimes it was due to being hit by a seat belt buckle, some banging on car doors getting in and out, some was just the rough and tumble nature of police work in those days before tasers and pepper spray weapons were common.

[OldWin]

My cousin broke the right ear off 686 rear sight while we were rabbit hunting. They had just come out and it was almost brand new. He wasn't happy.
It was one of the first times I gained a real appreciation for fixed sights. My old Colt suddenly didn't look so bad.
I always remembered that, and try and be careful of my adjustable sight handguns.