Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

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Ysabel Kid
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Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by Ysabel Kid »

... because judicial appointments just aren't on the "radar screen" of the leftists.

Sure.

If you believe that, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you!

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 25_pf.html

Some Legal Activists Have Hearts Set on 'True Liberal'
By Robert Barnes and Kevin Merida
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, July 20, 2008; A06

It could be seen as the sincerest form of flattery: Ask some activists on the left the kind of Supreme Court justice they would like to see a President Obama appoint, and the name you hear most is the same justice they most often denounce.

They want their own Antonin Scalia. Or rather, an anti-Scalia, an individual who can easily articulate a liberal interpretation of the Constitution, offer a quick sound bite and be prepared to mix it up with conservative activists beyond the marble and red velvet of the Supreme Court.

Some have even mentioned Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton for the role, although there is no evidence it would interest her or that Obama would consider his former rival for the Democratic presidential nomination for the court. But as the Supreme Court takes its traditional spot in the background of the presidential campaign, there is a longing on the left for a justice who would energize not only the court's liberal wing, but also the debate over interpreting the Constitution.

"Someone with vision," said Doug Kendall, who recently helped found a new liberal think tank called the Constitutional Accountability Center. "Someone who looks hard at the text and history of the Constitution, as Justice Scalia does, and articulates a very clear idea of how that text points to liberal and progressive outcomes."

Liberal legal activists have consistently lagged behind conservatives in convincing their partisans that the court should be a voting issue. The court remains ideologically split, but any openings presented to the next president are almost sure to come from within the court's liberal wing. The two oldest members of the court are Justices John Paul Stevens, 88, and Ruth Bader Ginsburg, 75.

If John McCain were elected, the appointment of a conservative justice could immediately reshape the court. The senator from Arizona might be forced to temper his choice to accommodate confirmation by a solidly Democratic Senate, but his nominee would undoubtedly be far to the right of either Stevens or Ginsburg, potentially solidifying a five-member conservative majority. President Bush's appointments to court, Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. and Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr., are both relatively young and are expected to be fixtures for decades.

If Obama had the opportunity to make an appointment, it would be only the fourth nomination from a Democratic president in more than 40 years. And for activists on the left, it could signal the opportunity to create a new dynamic for the court.

"It is a court with no true liberal on it, the most conservative court in 75 years," said Geoffrey Stone, a law professor at the University of Chicago, where Obama once taught constitutional law. "What we call liberals on this court are moderates, or moderate liberals, if you want to get refined about it."

Stone notes, as he said Stevens has, that every justice on the current court with the exception of Ginsburg is more conservative than the justice he replaced -- a natural evolution given that seven of the nine were appointed by Republican presidents.

Harvard law professor Lani Guinier hopes to get scholars, as well as judges, to rethink the role of a Supreme Court justice, a role she describes as "the justice as a teacher in a national seminar, an educator."

"They're not just making laws and delivering those tablets from Mount Olympus," Guinier said. "The project of being a Supreme Court justice is also a project of being an important citizen in a democracy."

While Guinier said she would not necessarily argue that the next president should nominate a politician, she said it was important to "make the court more democratically accountable."
"I think Hillary Clinton would bring to the court a range of experiences that the court doesn't presently have access to," Guinier said, noting that Clinton has run for two political offices and traveled all over the country engaging ordinary people in conversations "about real challenges that affect their lives."

James Andrew Miller, an assistant to former Senate majority leader Howard H. Baker Jr., wrote an op-ed in The Washington Post in May suggesting Clinton for the court, and said he was "just blown away" by the response.

Massachusetts Gov. Deval Patrick (D), a former Justice Department official and prominent Obama friend, has also been mentioned as a potential court appointee, and such a move would not be unprecedented. There is a substantial list of justices who once held political office. Most famously, President Dwight D. Eisenhower made good on his promise of an appointment to his onetime rival, California governor Earl Warren.

But the jobs could hardly be more different -- the somewhat solitary pursuits of a justice versus the glad-handing and collaborative responsibilities of a politician. But someone who has been tested by campaigns for public office might be more comfortable in the public arena, argued Dawn Johnsen, a former Clinton administration official who now teaches law at Indiana University, who said there "is a desire to have justices talking to the American people beyond their opinions."

Cass R. Sunstein, an informal Obama adviser now at Harvard Law School, last year instigated the debate by lamenting the "absence of anything like a heroic vision on the court's left" to counteract Scalia and Justice Clarence Thomas.

John Podesta, once President Bill Clinton's chief of staff and now president of the Center for American Progress, recently told the liberal American Constitution Society that the idea of "balancing" the courts with judges on the extreme left was not a good idea.

"We don't need to play that same game," he said -- a notion not particularly well-received by those in the audience.

Christopher L. Eisgruber, provost at Princeton University and author of a book about Supreme Court nominations titled "The Next Justice," said liberal activists seemed split between "breaking the mold a little between liberals and conservatives" and putting "somebody in the opposite corner in the boxing ring with Antonin Scalia."

Obama himself has been opaque and even contradictory about his criteria for a justice. He voted against both Roberts and Alito, and has said he sees Ginsburg and Justices Stephen G. Breyer and David H. Souter as the kinds of "sensible" justices he would favor.

Yet, as the court's term ended last month, he praised the court's decision in support of an individual right to gun ownership that struck down the District of Columbia's handgun ban, a decision in which Roberts and Alito were in the majority and liberals dissented.

Likewise, he disagreed with the court's decision that the death penalty may not be applied to child rapists, where Ginsburg, Breyer and Souter were in the majority and the conservative justices were in dissent.

Obama has said that justices will be in agreement 95 percent of the time, and in the other cases he looks for a judge "to bring in his or her own perspectives, his ethics, his or her moral bearings."

Republican critics have mocked that description for not including the word "Constitution" and contrasted it with McCain's vow to appoint judges "who have a proven record of strict interpretation of the Constitution of the United States."

Kendall winced at Obama's words. He said they make it sound as if one must look outside the law and the Constitution to get the results political progressives are looking for while they are provided for in guarantees of equal protection and due process. McCain's description will always be more palatable to the public, Kendall said.

********************************************************************

I long ago predicted that the price Hillary would extract for "standing by her man" during the impeachment mess would be a nomination to the SCOTUS. I think she temporarily got distracted with the run at the big prize, but I am sure this is being dangled in front of her once again... :evil:
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by sw41mag »

So we should elect that idiot mcbush so that he can put right wing fanatical judges on the bench while he screws everything else up too? Then he can get Roe vs Wade overturned and get abortions back where they belong, in the alley being performed by failed medical students. Tax cuts for corporations and the rich. 100 years of war in Iraq. Gee I can't wait.
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by bunklocoempire »

Sorry Ysabel, looks like left leaning judges no matter what, might wanna think about third party. :wink: I know, I know, lesser of two evils.

Remember, we're dealing with the "slow boil frog" thing, it's gonna keep creeping in (from ALL sides) unless there are some major fits thrown.

Back from March, not real familiar with this site/writer but he makes some good points: http://actionamerica.org/election/mccainjudges.shtml

By John Gaver

As most educated voters know, one of the most important issues in any presidential race has to do with the kind of judges each candidate will nominate. However, during the upcoming election, we have to adjust our thinking, on this issue.

There is no doubt that all of the candidates left in the presidential race will nominate liberal judges. Even supporters of John McCain cannot deny this. After all, McCain was one of the founders of the "Gang of Fourteen," which was created for the specific purpose of blocking Bush's conservative judges. Furthermore, more than a few well respected people have reported that John McCain called Judge Alito, "too conservative." That leaves no question as to what kind of judges will be nominated by John McCain. They will be just as liberal as those who might be nominated by either Hillary Rodham Clinton or Barack Hussein Obama.

Therefore, since Clinton, Obama and McCain will all nominate liberal judges, we have to look beyond simply, who they will nominate. We must ask another more specific question.

Which candidate will be able to get the most of his/her liberal judges CONFIRMED?
To answer this question, we need only look at the last two administrations. We watched, as Republican senators successfully fought off the worst of Clinton's judicial nominations and liberal initiatives. They didn't waver. It was like they were on a mission. Compare that to how many of them have bent over backwards to support Bush's liberal initiatives.

Does anyone really believe that congressional Republicans would have remained almost completely silent about Bush's not-to-be-sufficiently-darned Security and Prosperity Partnership or the question of the legality of Bush's wire taps, if either of those things had come from the Clinton Administration? Of course not. Republicans would have been fighting for time on news programs, to denounce them and authoring bills to block them. Would congressional Republicans have almost unanimously passed the Patriot Act, in its final form, if it had come from Bill Clinton's Whitehouse? Not a chance!

The problem is that congressmen and senators in both parties have demonstrated time and again, that they have no backbone for standing up to a president from their own party, whose initiatives violate every principle for which they stand. Oh, there are a few in both parties, who are not so easily swayed. But, it only takes a few Republicans, voting with the Democrats, to pass some liberal initiative into law and therein, lies the problem, when it comes to liberal judges.

Same Judge - Different President
A radical liberal judge, nominated by Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama, would have no chance at all, of being confirmed, as long as the Republicans have anything close to a majority in the Senate. They will stand almost as one, to defeat such liberal judges. And, while there are some liberal Republican senators, like McCain, who will support those liberal judges, there are also a very small handful of conservative or moderate Democrat senators, who will offset the votes of those liberal Republican senators.

However, that exact same radical liberal judge would see his nomination sail through confirmation, if John McCain were to be the president who nominated him. That's because most of the Democrats would naturally support a liberal judge and McCain would use his influence, as the leader of the party, to intimidate enough Republican senators into voting with them.

Presidential Intimidation
A president can see to it that a given candidate, within his party, will not have a single major political figure endorse him, in the next election or show up for one of those $1000 a plate luncheons, if that candidate doesn't vote his way. Such intimidation is not really possible, for the party that is out of power, in the Whitehouse. And remember, it only takes a few intimidated Republicans, switching to the other side, to make a difference in the outcome of a confirmation.

You must also consider that Bush managed to push a lot of his liberal initiatives past congressional Republicans, without being too terribly forceful. After all, he's a nice guy. On the other hand, it is widely known that John McCain's personality is built upon a solid foundation of RAGE. His temper is renowned.

Bush was unable to get his Amnesty program passed, largely because it just wasn't in his personality to be capable of being enough of a jerk to apply enough pressure to his "friends" in Congress, to make that happen. John McCain suffers from no such gentlemanly compunction. In fact, as a Liberal Republican, he has few, if any real "friends" in the Republican Party.

Let's face facts. McCain will be relentless in intimidating Republican senators, to vote to confirm his Liberal judges. By contrast, as Democrats, both Clinton and Obama will act as lightening rods to congressional Republicans, who will fight any liberal judges that either one of them tries to push through the Senate.

The only possible conclusion is that while all three of the candidates, who remain in the presidential race, will certainly nominate some very liberal judges, only John McCain will have the power and influence to get all of his LIBERAL judges confirmed.
Conservatives need to think about this, when they go to the polls in November.


Our BEST shot at stopping ALL the stuff http://www.campaignforliberty.com/ Up to almost 73,000 no compromise folk. Slowly but surely and no backsliding. :)


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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by FWiedner »

I don't think it's so much a question of whether or not the election matters as it is a question of whether the nation can survive the possible election of either of the current. It really doesn't matter which wins, the nation, and the People, will lose.

When the Republican party and it's members turned their backs on conservatives and against the only conservative candidate running for President, the election season ended and Barrack Obama became the 44th president.

:(
Government office attracts the power-mad, yet it's people who just want to be left alone to live life on their own terms who are considered dangerous.

History teaches that it's a small window in which people can fight back before it is too dangerous to fight back.
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by Ysabel Kid »

sw41mag wrote:So we should elect that idiot mcbush so that he can put right wing fanatical judges on the bench while he screws everything else up too? Then he can get Roe vs Wade overturned and get abortions back where they belong, in the alley being performed by failed medical students. Tax cuts for corporations and the rich. 100 years of war in Iraq. Gee I can't wait.
Funny how those "right wing fanatical judges" just saved the Second Amendment in the Heller case - and all the judges you apparently love - the ones supporting Roe - voted against the individual's right to keep and bear arms.

Roe was bad law - period. Regardless of how you feel about "abortion" (murder), that is a state issue Constitutionally.

As for "tax cuts for the rich and business", let's look at the facts:

The top 1% of wage earners paid 40% of all taxes collected;
The top 10% of wage earners paid 70% of all taxes collected;
The top 50% of wage earners paid 97% of all taxes collected.

This means the bottom half of income/wage earners paid only 3% of all taxes collected. This data is from 2007 and comes from the IRS itself (non-partisan). It is also a shift from the Clinton ear, as those on the lower end of the income scale paid more under Clinton, and those on the higher end paid less - the exact opposite of what Dem's claim. Also, the tax cuts, as they had under Reagan and Kennedy, increased the overall revenue generated. This is basic economics and historical fact.

Finally, we've had a military presence in German, Japan and Korea 50-60 after winning (drawing) those wars. One can expect, through a similar invitation by the Iraqi's, that we will have a forward base against terror for decades to come. This will make us and the world safer.
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by RIHMFIRE »

Ysabel Kid wrote:
sw41mag wrote:So we should elect that idiot mcbush so that he can put right wing fanatical judges on the bench while he screws everything else up too? Then he can get Roe vs Wade overturned and get abortions back where they belong, in the alley being performed by failed medical students. Tax cuts for corporations and the rich. 100 years of war in Iraq. Gee I can't wait.
Funny how those "right wing fanatical judges" just saved the Second Amendment in the Heller case - and all the judges you apparently love - the ones supporting Roe - voted against the individual's right to keep and bear arms.

Roe was bad law - period. Regardless of how you feel about "abortion" (murder), that is a state issue Constitutionally.

As for "tax cuts for the rich and business", let's look at the facts:

The top 1% of wage earners paid 40% of all taxes collected;
The top 10% of wage earners paid 70% of all taxes collected;
The top 50% of wage earners paid 97% of all taxes collected.

This means the bottom half of income/wage earners paid only 3% of all taxes collected. This data is from 2007 and comes from the IRS itself (non-partisan). It is also a shift from the Clinton ear, as those on the lower end of the income scale paid more under Clinton, and those on the higher end paid less - the exact opposite of what Dem's claim. Also, the tax cuts, as they had under Reagan and Kennedy, increased the overall revenue generated. This is basic economics and historical fact.

Finally, we've had a military presence in German, Japan and Korea 50-60 after winning (drawing) those wars. One can expect, through a similar invitation by the Iraqi's, that we will have a forward base against terror for decades to come. This will make us and the world safer.
KID ....your right on with this one...
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by Old Ironsights »

FWiedner wrote:I don't think it's so much a question of whether or not the election matters as it is a question of whether the nation can survive the possible election of either of the current. It really doesn't matter which wins, the nation, and the People, will lose.

When the Republican party and it's members turned their backs on conservatives and against the only conservative candidate running for President, the election season ended and Barrack Obama became the 44th president.

:(
Unfortunately. :cry:
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by C. Cash »

Well said YK!!!!
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by 44LVR »

sw41mag wrote:So we should elect that idiot mcbush so that he can put right wing fanatical judges on the bench while he screws everything else up too?
Mcbush? Why is it the leftist/socialists always gloated and rubbed their hands togather giggling fiendishly everytime McCain publically disagreed with Bush and now you/they tie the two togather?
We have the 2nd Amendment in place today because of the appointments of Bush. A friend was complaining about a few of Bush's policies the other day. My response? If you hate Bush so bad, give your guns up. All of them. Right now. He is the kind of guy who owns firearms and yet gives to and supports those who would take away not just his guns, but mine.
Then he can get Roe vs Wade overturned and get abortions back where they belong, in the alley being performed by failed medical students.
I guess States don't have the right to decide for themselves as McCain and the Republicans have stated? Why is it the left wants the Feds to have all-reaching and crushing power?
Tax cuts for corporations and the rich.
I'm kinda poor. I don't employ anyone. I guess *I* need the tax cut? My taxes are already nearly zero. I still won't hire anyone. I bet my boss who will have to be paying more money out will think about laying me off.
100 years of war in Iraq. Gee I can't wait.
WHOA! Nancy? Is that you?

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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by tman »

you end up with obama because of the sins of the cheney -bush administration. conseratives were allieined by the lies that led to illegal attack on iraq. bushes attack on the constitution didn;t help either. the left point to the tax cuts for the extremely wealthy, the funding of the military war complex, which eisenhouer warned us against in 1961. so where does the non koolaid drinker for the left or right end up. gas at 4.00 dollars a gallon, the flood of illegan alliens aliens across the border, driving down wages of the middle class,the bailouts of the mortgage industries, by that same cash strapped lower -middle class tax payer leave you. no one learn's from history anymore. the u.s should stay out of foreign affairs. let.s use the money to drill on our own oil, natural gas reserves. embrace nuclear and coal powered electricity. develope the hydrogen ann nATURAL GAS POWERED CARS, which big oil has tharted for the last 100 years, don.t compllain about obamah becoming president, when we let bush blindly lead this country to ruin,
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by Ysabel Kid »

tman wrote: don.t compllain about obamah becoming president, when we let bush blindly lead this country to ruin,
For Pete's sake, please use a spell-checker! :roll:

I am not a big fan of President Bush. I don't like his expansion of government, his "compassionate conservative" garbage, nor many of the things he did - or failed to do - once in office. That being said, he certainly surpasses the pedophile we had in office before him, his father, and the fool from Georgia running around blaming his own country for all the world's woes. President Bush will go down in history - if it is recorded accurately - for three major accomplisments:

(1) His across the board tax cuts, which generated immense economic growth, reversing a recession he inherited, as well as the economic impact from the worst attack ever on US soil.

(2) His willingness to recognize, if not publically, the nature of the enemy who wants to destroy us and his willingness, regardless of how unpopular it has made him (here and abroad) to take the battle to the enemy instead of burying his head in the sane here and waiting for another attack.

(3) His appointment of two excellent legal scholars, Roberts and Alito, to the SCOTUS.

The "Bush's tax cuts" were indeed progressive, taking more people completely off the tax-paying rolls than any other President before him. Yes, those who pay more in taxes saw their rates decline - as they should - after all, they pay the taxes! However, as a percentage of the revenue collected, those at the top ends of income/wage earning saw their percentage increase. In other words, the rich may pay a lower rate, but they paid more in absolute taxes collected. We as a country spend money - not rates. How is this possible? Economics 101. Reduce the rates and it increases economic activity. More people get employed, more people earn wages, and people make more money - leading to an increase in the revenues generated via the lower taxes. It worked with Reagan and with Kennedy. In fact, it has worked every time it has been tried - in every country it has been tried. The converse is also true - everytme taxes are increased, economic activity slows. This is what Obama wants to do!

Our enemy - radical Islam - wants us dead. Period. They can not tolerate our example of freedom and prosperity. We are a constant reminder of their failure. Just as the Soviets couldn't live in peace beside captialism & freedom, neither can Islam. The only way for these lesser systems to do so is to either enslave their own people (preventing them from immigrating to the better system) and/or detroy the better example. For all of our faults - and we have many - our system is still the envy of the world. Given a true choice, most people will pick freedom and peace every time over all other options. Bush realized that even if we won't acknowledge the war radical Islam has declared on us, they will continue to fight it. His choice to bring the fight to them, in the heart of their world, and try to establish freedom and peace as a magnate to others, was both bold and courageous - and our only hope.

Chief Justice Roberts and Justice Alito should serve for decades on the SCOTUS. Assuming they remain true, they will continue to counterbalance a leftward lurch of the court into activism that has no basis in Constitutional law. We can only hope that more such learned jurists follow in their footsteps - and return to the court it's proper role in our system of government and laws.
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by ole pizen slinger »

Hey Kid,
I've never met you but from the way you write I can tell you're someone I'd like to meet.
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by Ysabel Kid »

ole pizen slinger wrote:Hey Kid,
I've never met you but from the way you write I can tell you're someone I'd like to meet.
Ole Pizen Slinger
Why thank you!

Ever get to any of the gun shows in NC? If so, which ones?
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by tman »

sorry about the spelling. the patriot act, lying to congress and the american people about invading iraq, and the ousting of a cia agent spell treason to me. i've heard these topips spun 100 times, still cant buy it. america has faced war and terrorism before, and always will. sorry guvs, wrong is wrong. :(
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by PaulB »

When the Republican party and it's members turned their backs on conservatives and against the only conservative candidate running for President, the election season ended and Barrack Obama became the 44th president.
Yep.

I made the point many times in various fora that if R's nominate anyone other than the only true conservative (Ron Paul), then libertarians and paleocons would bail and the D nominee would win. Well, not only did R's not nominate Ron Paul, but party insiders used particularly scurrilous tactics to shoot down his candidacy. Sorry Kid, try all you want, you are still not going to get us back on the train. You (and other R's, collectively) made this bed, now you can sleep in it.

Anyway, the composition of the court is irrelevant, because an economic sh*t-storm is on the way, probably accompanied by another revolution. End-days for the empire, folks.
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by 44LVR »

tman wrote:sorry about the spelling. the patriot act, lying to congress and the american people about invading iraq, and the ousting of a cia agent spell treason to me. i've heard these topips spun 100 times, still cant buy it. america has faced war and terrorism before, and always will. sorry guvs, wrong is wrong. :(
That awful Patriot act and listening in to Terrorists. Kinda makes it like cheating when we know what they are talking about, doesn't it! We shouldn't have broke the codes or listened in to any of our enemies during WWII, either. That was just like cheating too! :wink:

Why does the left keep throwing up invading Iraq? I guess I'm the only one in the world that likes not seeing old Saddam and his boys in power. And what's with the removal of 550,000 TONS of yellow cake from Iraq a couple weeks ago? You know, that absolutely benign substance that Saddam bought to make nukes with as soon as the Leftist/Socialists was able to talk the world into relaxing the sanctions...............oh I forgot, the Leftist thinks yellow cake is a CAKE MIX :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: But it went to Canada to use in the nuclear power plants. Huh. I misunderstood I guess. Maybe the guys working there wanted to eat yellow cakes :lol: :lol:

It was a lefty, Armatidge, that outed Valerie Plame. He admitted it. And yes, it probably is treason. Wrong is wrong you know :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by 1886 »

Folks, Y.K. is quite correct. I am not a Bush fan but one can not debate the inescapable conclusion that presidential elections are now ALL about the Supremes. Without a Republican Pres. the court would in all likely hood have a different landscape. He, Pres. Bush, has made many mistakes but in my opinion his appointees made him, Bush, worth it. And yes he, Bush, is terribly wrong on illegal immigration among many other issues. Respectfully, 1886
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by Ysabel Kid »

PaulB wrote: Sorry Kid, try all you want, you are still not going to get us back on the train. You (and other R's, collectively) made this bed, now you can sleep in it.
Sigh...

The problem with those on the left is they rarely stop to listen.

I am not a Republican, and I am hardly responsible for "this bed" I've opposed for years. I am an American who believes in the limited Constitutional government our Founding Fathers originally set up. This, in general, classifies me as a "conservative" (or a classic liberal, as our Founding Fathers were in their era), or "to the right" in the political spectrum. I left the Republican party formally when President Bush signed that hideous legislation called the "McCain-Feingold" bill, hoping the SCOTUS would strike down some of the more obnoxious parts of it. The "incumbant protection act" was an outright insult to the First Amendment, and I refuse to be part of a party that passed it.

That being said, I am also a realist. Our country will elect a President this fall, and it will be either Obama or McCain. Given the choice between the two - and I don't like either - I'll go with McCain. At least we have some chance of the occasional "blind squirrel finding the nut" with McCain, and he is infinitely more qualified for the actual job than diaper-boy, no matter how "wonderful" the Obamaniacs believe him to be.

As well, though I think President Bush has certainly made mistakes - many of them - including the one that drove me from the Party, I can objectively assess his Presidency (something the left is incapable of doing) and point out - as I did before - some of the major accomplishments he has had. In a ranking of the Presidents I have seen during my voting years (1982 - present), he ranks a solid second, behind (quite a bit) President Reagan, but light years ahead of his father and Slick Willy.

This one pretty much sums it up for me:

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And I will vote for whoever has the best chance of keeping the Socialists - i.e. - the modern Democrat Party - out of office. This is McCain.
PaulB wrote:
When the Republican party and it's members turned their backs on conservatives and against the only conservative candidate running for President, the election season ended and Barrack Obama became the 44th president.
Yep.

I made the point many times in various fora that if R's nominate anyone other than the only true conservative (Ron Paul), then libertarians and paleocons would bail and the D nominee would win. Well, not only did R's not nominate Ron Paul, but party insiders used particularly scurrilous tactics to shoot down his candidacy.
I agree. I liked Ron Paul except for his position on the war. Burying one's head in the sand is not an effective means of fighting an enemy sworn to destroy us - whether we fight them or not. This killed my support for Paul, though I still think he makes one of the best Representatives in the house (and would be a fine VP choice).
PaulB wrote: Anyway, the composition of the court is irrelevant, because an economic sh*t-storm is on the way, probably accompanied by another revolution. End-days for the empire, folks.


That is nonsense. I agree we are in for some very rough economic times - and they will be made much worse (try Second Depression worse) by the Dem's if they sweep the House, Senate and Presidency. However, the court's composition is what will determine the rate of flow of the $hit coming from Washington, so it will be more important than ever should the evil trifecta of Democrat control infect all parts of the federal government.
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by PaulB »

Sorry if I blamed you Kid. :)

I had to laugh at you rating GW Bush, Our Torture President, as #2. Just goes to show there is no accounting for taste.

It used to be that R politicians could at least make a semi-plausible case that, while they were scum, they were at least less harmful scum than D politicians were. Thus they generally harvested votes from freedom lovers who had nowhere else to go (ignoring of course the irrelevancy of the Libertarian Party).

But GWB ended that. R politicians now have NO more credibility than D politicians. The blinders are off. Sorry, you may believe McCain is a tad less bad than Obama (stating it almost as if it were a given! :roll: ), but I and many others don't. "Big government conservatism" holds no appeal to us. Police state measures hold no appeal. War for war's sake holds no appeal. Etc.

As to our coming 2nd Depression, please tell me how D's could be any worse? This was a very long time coming, but it was the GWB administration that really gave a boost to it. Anyway Hoover, an R, started the 1st Depression. One thing is guaranteed: no matter which person or which party is in power, government will act to "fix" things and therefore make it worse. Neither side is willing to let the correction take its natural course. And in the background it will just be more plunder for the cronies, that's all.

Lack of support for this phoney-baloney war on terrorism made you write off Ron Paul? Wow, I have 5 or 10 things that makes me write off McCain, not the least that he's crazy as a loon. BTW, terror is a problem, I agree; but the source of terror is Washington DC. And almost everyone agrees with me. How many here have posted over the last year worrying about where Osama bin Laden will strike next? On the other hand, how many are absolutely terrified at what the outcome of the election will be, or what Judges will get on the Supreme Court, etc.?

My plan: don't vote. I've had it with this bad joke we call democracy. "Democracy is a form of worship. It is the worship of jackals by jackasses."

-- H. L. Mencken
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by Ysabel Kid »

PaulB wrote: Sorry if I blamed you Kid. :)
No offsense taken! :wink:
PaulB wrote: I had to laugh at you rating GW Bush, Our Torture President, as #2. Just goes to show there is no accounting for taste.
I guess we have a serious difference in the definition of what amounts to "torture". Three square meals a day, prayer mats, time for prayer, entertainment, etc. doesn't sound much like torture to me. Using non-permanent "scare tactics" to elicit information that saves our troops and our civilians doesn't sound much like torture to me. Drilling body parts, burning people and beheading people sounds a heck of a lot like torture to me. Hmmm - that's right, we don't do the latter - they do.
PaulB wrote: R politicians now have NO more credibility than D politicians. The blinders are off. Sorry, you may believe McCain is a tad less bad than Obama (stating it almost as if it were a given! :roll: ), but I and many others don't. "Big government conservatism" holds no appeal to us.
I already stated I agree - with the first and last part. When the GOP acts like "Demo-lite" they lose - and will continue to lose. We expect the GOP to be the party of limited government - or, at least that is my expectation. However, again, we will elect a President this fall and it will be Obama or McCain. Reality sucks - sorry. Reality is that Obama will offer no hope to conservatives. Given two bad choices, I'd rather go with that faint glimmer than no hope at all.
PaulB wrote: As to our coming 2nd Depression, please tell me how D's could be any worse? This was a very long time coming, but it was the GWB administration that really gave a boost to it. Anyway Hoover, an R, started the 1st Depression. One thing is guaranteed: no matter which person or which party is in power, government will act to "fix" things and therefore make it worse. Neither side is willing to let the correction take its natural course. And in the background it will just be more plunder for the cronies, that's all.
Most economists would beg to differ with you. The stock market crash of 1929 - like that of 1987 - was a correction in the market. What was the difference that caused a depression to follow? Government "help" by interfering with the natural market correction. This was indeed started by Hoover acting like a Democrat instead of having the cuts to act like a Republican. Roosevelt made it considerably worse - ensuring that the Depression lasted far longer than it needed to, and foisting every generation since with horrendous debt and the rise of socialism within our society. Reagan, on the other hand, let the market correct itself, and after a brief recession, we had almost a decade of growth - despite stupid policies from the Clinton administration.

Obama and the Dem's in Congress, in the desire to "do something", will make the situation far worse. Just watch...
PaulB wrote: Lack of support for this phoney-baloney war on terrorism made you write off Ron Paul? Wow, I have 5 or 10 things that makes me write off McCain, not the least that he's crazy as a loon. BTW, terror is a problem, I agree; but the source of terror is Washington DC. And almost everyone agrees with me. How many here have posted over the last year worrying about where Osama bin Laden will strike next? On the other hand, how many are absolutely terrified at what the outcome of the election will be, or what Judges will get on the Supreme Court, etc.?
First, the primary job of the POTUS is to keep our country and its citizens safe. Paul fails the test, so he doesn't get a ticket to the dance floor. I don't like it - because I like him - but it is a disqualification (same as for Obama).

Second, I have 5 or 10 things that disqualify McCain too - but EVERYTHING Obama believes in disqualifies him in my book. Had Paul got the nomination, despite his stance on the War, I would have supported him. I don't support McCain because he is a good choice; I support him because he is a better choice than Obama, and those are the only two choices we have. I don't like that either, but it is reality.
PaulB wrote: My plan: don't vote. I've had it with this bad joke we call democracy. "Democracy is a form of worship. It is the worship of jackals by jackasses."
-- H. L. Mencken
Whereas I agree with Mencken's sentiments, if you don't vote, you've help to elect Obama. And in not voting, you have no right to complain about the outcome. Again, reality is harsh. Every individual is entitled to their own opinion, just not their own facts...

Good conversation though - this is how political discourse is supposed to be!
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by w30wcf »

Ysabel Kid,

Well said! My thoughts as well.
I would add #4 - GW has implemented actions that have kept our nation safe - no more terrorist attacks since 9/11. Folks, just think how another attack might have affected our economy let alone the lives lost.

Some people just don't know how bad it could be compared to how bad they think it is.

Thank you!

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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by bunklocoempire »

Ysabel Kid wrote:
(1) His across the board tax cuts, which generated immense economic growth, reversing a recession he inherited, as well as the economic impact from the worst attack ever on US soil.

(2) His willingness to recognize, if not publically, the nature of the enemy who wants to destroy us and his willingness, regardless of how unpopular it has made him (here and abroad) to take the battle to the enemy instead of burying his head in the sane here and waiting for another attack.

(3) His appointment of two excellent legal scholars, Roberts and Alito, to the SCOTUS.
A little nit-picking with #1 :wink:

Estimates of the economic impact of 9-11 that I've found are approximately 28 billion dollars.

The National debt grew under Bush's watch (and continues to grow with the "housing" bill he will sign next week) approximately 7 Trillion dollars.

Difference: $6,972,000,000,000.00 Still in the hole. Surprise!(check my math!)

I guess the tax cuts weren't enough. Reversing a recession? Not by a long shot.

Tax cuts generating immense economic growth? Hardly. The infusion of money courtesy of Congress (Republican AND Democrat) and the Federal Reserve "lent out" at artificially low interest rates is the reason for the "immense growth". Now the market is correcting for that imaginary money. Too much money, not enough real product -but it looks good on paper don't it? Immense growth -or any growth- has been imaginary for about 30 years now.

What's more dangerous to our economy? The numbers tell us it's our own government. :x


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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by Ysabel Kid »

bunklocoempire wrote: What's more dangerous to our economy? The numbers tell us it's our own government. :x
Bunkloco
Correct - so that is why giving the government a lower percentage of your hard-earned money, in addition to helping spur economic growth, is a good thing. The other half of the equation is for the bloated government to stop spending on unconstitutional items. Since both sides are addicted to pork and power, I just don't see that happening. The Republicans were always the lesser of the two evils on that front - up until the Bush II era. They are quickly becoming as bad as the Dem's - and will lose every election until they straighten their ship and offer the voters a real choice.

Basic economics - when you tax something more, you get less of it. When you tax something less, you get more of it. Cutting taxes on earned income encourages people to earn more - and increases productivity. It has worked that way every time it has been tried.

Raising taxes on earned income has the opposite effect. Why would I want to work harder if I will actually have less money to show for it if I move into a higher tax bracket? Higher taxes are a disincentive to work - and that has also been shown every time taxes are raised.
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by Hankster »

Why do some seem to have this "hang up" over "tax cuts for the evil rich" (liberal's mantra) etc??? Ask yourself this....when was the last time you saw a POOR GUY open a factory/store etc, and hire people/creat jobs etc. Sorry friend....but it has always been the "evil rich" doing this. The fact the rich can get richer prompts them to.... and the workers ..well..USED to benefit from this!
Why don't we now?? This idiotic "free trade"..."global trade" etc nonsense we've been sold......all free trade does is let say....Norton Anti-Virus (Symantec)..used as an example....go and hire Gupta over in New Delhi, instead of you....to man thier phone product service lines..... or Wing Fong in China to make the Disc Brake pads your cousin used to make here.....at a FRACTION of the cost and labor that USED to be paid here!!! If you read the Constitution, ALL taxes were originally paid via trade tarriff!!!!
This Free trade nonsense took this away, and took the brakes off all our jobs going overseas...and yes...creating obscene profits for "some" of the "evil rich"...at the expense of ALL of us!! Big business didn't do this .. your Congress Critter did. Handed your job to a foreigner on a silver platter. Thanks Congress.
Oh yeah....if it isn't bad enough our good jobs are gone....then how about the fact that this same deal is in large part why GAS PRICES are so high!!?!?!?!?!
How is that??? Simple.....Gupta and Wing Fong USED to walk or ride a bike to work.... they were all too poor to own cars, motorbikes etc. But NOW....due to free trade....they have the means to own cars and bikes!! And these need GAS! So we have created the very "competition" for the limited fuel currently out there forcing fuel prices up. They are buying the gas we used to get, with the money we give em. Talk about adding insult to injury.....sure there are other factors....but this is a big one.
Think not? Then answer this.....20 years ago.....were you or most people you know better off?? Could they afford a car easier, buying a home.....take vacations....you know, back when we DID make cars, T.V's, parts, all HERE?? Were you or neighbors/friends/ etc selling off boats, travel trailers etc because you just couldn't afford to keep em??
My opinion may be an over-simplified look at this problem......but sometimes a frank but simple look is easier to see!!

To sum up the initial point before I got to rambling.....letting those with wealth benefit from investing isn't bad....provided we go back to making the "investment" stay HERE!!! The Free ride to quick riches at the cost of letting the U.S. economy and it's citizens crash and burn needs to be stopped, and FAST!
That, or soon we'll have nothing left.... Remember, everything in life has a balance, and if we keep sending all our money abroad, there's less and less left here. Before Free trade, it was the other way around....
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by bunklocoempire »

To be clear, I don't have any problem cutting taxes. I do have a problem with any taxes. :D I do have a problem with the inflation tax that politicians hit us with (Dems AND Repubs) and never talk of. It doesn't matter to me if it's obvious taxes from the dems or less obvious from the repubs BOTH are wrong and it's hard for me to sit by while folks mention the democrats and ignore the damage done by republicans, they're BOTH government. Tax cuts don't ever keep up with the inflation caused by introducing more money artificially.

Do away with all taxes (I'm all for that) and we'd still see inflation if we didn't/don't stop the artificially created dollar.

The falling dollar is actually good for U.S. companies doing business abroad (only those selling products abroad, 3M etc.) foreigners buying U.S. goods abroad get that "dollar" discount cause their currency is stronger and buy more. Euro to dollar for example.

I think we can all guess what this will lead to, more of the same and worse. :x


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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by Old Ironsights »

7/8 of every dollar you earn does to Taxes - either directly or indirectly as pass-throughs. Busines don't pay taxes. To a business, Taxes are simply an operatng expense to be passed on in the price of the product. The more you tax them - untill you tax tem outof business - the more their product costs you.

Why do you think the cost of guns jumped by a full decimal point after the GCA 68 taxes went into effect?
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by Old Ironsights »

I am still completely befuddled why people supported this goon over Ron Paul...
-------------------------------------

McCain's Tax Blunder
July 30, 2008; Page A14

One of the miracles of this Presidential election campaign is that John McCain still has a chance to win, notwithstanding his best attempts to kick it away. In his latest random policy improvisation, the Arizona Senator tried to give up the tax issue.

On ABC's "This Week" Sunday, Mr. McCain was asked to draw distinctions between his and the current Administration's economic policy. Given an easy opening, the Senator came back with his usual hodgepodge of new child-tax credits, promises to "veto every single pork barrel bill" and close wasteful government agencies, cut dependence on foreign oil and introduce a gas-tax holiday.

Then host George Stephanopoulos raised Social Security. "You're a longtime supporter of the private accounts, as President Bush called for them." Wishing to further distance himself from President Bush, when he could have drawn an equally useful contrast with Barack Obama, Mr. McCain didn't even own up to his support for private retirement accounts, simply saying, "I am a supporter of sitting down together and putting everything on the table and coming up with an answer."

Mr. Stephanopoulos pressed, "So that means payroll tax increases are on the table, as well?" Here came the words that have caused the McCain campaign well deserved grief: "There is nothing that's off the table. I have my positions, and I'll articulate them. But nothing's off the table."

So given a chance to reiterate his opposition to tax increases -- and underscore a main contrast with his opponent -- Mr. McCain punted. Democrats were quick to pounce, with the Democratic National Committee issuing a press release headlined, "McCain Tax Pledge? Not so much." It provided citations of the presumptive GOP nominee asserting that "Senator Obama will raise your taxes. I won't." Expect the "nothing's off the table" line to show up in Democratic TV spots this fall.

The wandering candidate also put his chief economic adviser, Douglas Holtz-Eakin, in an uncomfortable spot. Back in June, the McCain campaign went after Mr. Obama's proposal for a Social Security payroll tax increase on income above $250,000. A President McCain, his adviser then said, wouldn't consider a payroll tax increase "under any imaginable circumstances." So much for that.

Economics has never been Mr. McCain's strong suit, but with Iraq receding as a crisis the economy is the ground where the Senator will have to fight and win. And the tax issue provides him with a potent opening, given Mr. Obama's pledge to raise taxes on incomes, dividends and capital gains. In proposing to raise the payroll tax cap, the Democrat is to the left even of Hillary Clinton. Mr. McCain's Sunday blunder will make that issue that much harder to exploit.

Such mistakes also help explain the continued lack of enthusiasm for Mr. McCain among many conservatives. Meeting with us last December, before the primaries, he declared that "I will not agree to any tax increase," repeating the phrase for emphasis. He did not say any tax increase with the exception of Social Security. If Mr. McCain can't convince voters that he's better on taxes than is a Democrat who says matter-of-factly that he wants to raise taxes, the Republican is going to lose in a rout.

-----------------------------------
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by tman »

two quotes to sum up my feelings on the bush presidency; to announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong,is not only UNPATRIOTIC and SERVILE, but is MORALLY TREASONABLE to the american public. t r roosevelt 1904. they who give up ESSENTIAL LIBERTY to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety. ben franklin 1775. two great americans spinning in their graves over what this idiot did. :( :( :( :(
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by Ysabel Kid »

tman wrote:two quotes to sum up my feelings on the bush presidency; to announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong,is not only UNPATRIOTIC and SERVILE, but is MORALLY TREASONABLE to the american public. t r roosevelt 1904. they who give up ESSENTIAL LIBERTY to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety. ben franklin 1775. two great americans spinning in their graves over what this idiot did. :( :( :( :(
I'm trying to find anyone here who has ever stated either point - that criticism of President Bush (or any other elected official, or anyone seeking office) is wrong and must be stopped, and/or that we must stand by the President right or wrong. I don't recall ANYONE making those claims.

I will make these though:

(1) Though I don't agree with the President on many things, and I think he has made some horrible decisions, I will acknowledge that in several critical areas (the war against radical Islamists bent on the destruction of our way of life, the economy and taxes, and on judicial nominations) he has been fantastic. Apparently, for the Democrats and the left, any acknowledgement of any good President Bush has done is simply not possible. It is like asking Obama to admit his stance against the surge was simply plain wrong. Not going to happen.

(2) I don't think it is wrong to criticize the President or his policies, but I do think it is TREASONOUS to give aid and comfort to our sworn enemies while we have brave men and women in uniform actively fighting them. We managed through 150+ years of our history, through all of our disagreements, on stopping those at the edge of the water. The Democrat's chucked all that with Korea and have kept it up ever since. If Obama is elected I am sure I will have plenty - each and every day - to bitterly complain about from his administration and the damage they will do to our country. One thing I won't do though is risk the life of even one of our servicemen and women, even if it means shutting up and stewing in my own juices.

(3) I'm an American - I know no master and pledge to no king other than my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. But I will stand by my COUNTRY and the ideals she stands for - freedom and justice - ALWAYS, whether she be RIGHT OR WRONG.

That's how I was raised and that is how I am raising my children.
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by tman »

i posted these these qoutes to sum up my opion on the president. it is not an endorsement for obahma, mccain, clinton or anyone else. kid i enjoy the back and forth disscussion. IN NO WAY IS THIS A PERSONAL ATTACK ON ANYONE at this site.if anyone here is offended , i offer my sincere appology. kid, your a true patriot. we just dissagree on this subject.
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by Ysabel Kid »

tman wrote:i posted these these qoutes to sum up my opion on the president. it is not an endorsement for obahma, mccain, clinton or anyone else. kid i enjoy the back and forth disscussion. IN NO WAY IS THIS A PERSONAL ATTACK ON ANYONE at this site.if anyone here is offended , i offer my sincere appology. kid, your a true patriot. we just dissagree on this subject.
tman -

Thank you. This is the way political discourse is supposed to be. Passionate, pointed, but not a personal attack. We are all Americans. We may disagree on many things, but we always need to acknowledge our common bond, and like a north star, it will often point the correct way and bring us back together.

It would be a boring place if we all agreed all of the time. A little boredom wouldn't hurt every now and again though! :wink:
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by rjohns94 »

What YK said +1000. That just saves me from climbing my soap box and getting my blood pressure up. :D :D
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by Old Ironsights »

The stink of BO is going to settle on the US not because the Obamessiah is going to win, but because the McChurian Candidate is going to actively Lose/hand the presidency over to the Socialists. It's all part of the programming. :evil:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1217459 ... columnists
WONDER LAND
By DANIEL HENNINGER

Is John McCain Stupid?
July 31, 2008

Is John McCain losing it?

On Sunday, he said on national television that to solve Social Security "everything's on the table," which of course means raising payroll taxes. On July 7 in Denver he said: "Senator Obama will raise your taxes. I won't."

This isn't a flip-flop. It's a sex-change operation.

He got back to the subject Tuesday in Reno, Nev. Reporters asked about the Sunday tax comments. Mr. McCain replied, "The worst thing you could do is raise people's payroll taxes, my God!" Then he was asked about working with Democrats to fix Social Security, and he repeated, "everything has to be on the table." But how can . . .? Oh never mind.

Yesterday he was in Aurora, Colo., to wit: "On Social Security, he [Sen. Obama] wants to raise Social Security taxes. I am opposed to raising taxes on Social Security. I want to fix the system without raising taxes."

What I'm asking is, does John McCain have the mental focus, the intellectual discipline, to avoid being out-slicked by Barack Obama, if he isn't abandoned by his own voters?

It's not just taxes. Recently the subject came up of Al Gore's assertion that the U.S. could get its energy solely from renewables in 10 years. Sen. McCain said: "If the vice president says it's doable, I believe it's doable." What!!?? In a later interview, Mr. McCain said he hadn't read "all the specifics" of the Gore plan and now, "I don't think it's doable without nuclear power." It just sounds loopy.

Then this week in San Francisco, in an interview with the Chronicle, Sen. McCain called Nancy Pelosi an "inspiration to millions of Americans." Notwithstanding his promises to "work with the other side," this is a politically obtuse thing to say in the middle of a campaign. Would Bill Clinton, running for president in 1996 after losing control of the House, have called Newt Gingrich an "inspiration"? House Minority Leader John Boehner, facing a 10-to-20 seat loss in November, must be gagging.

The one thing -- arguably the only thing -- the McCain candidacy has going for it is a sense among voters that they don't know what Barack Obama stands for or believes. Why then would Mr. McCain give voters reason to wonder the same thing about himself? You're supposed to sow doubt about the other guy, not do it to yourself.

Yes, Sen. McCain must somehow appeal to independents and blue-collar Hillary Democrats. A degree of pandering to the center is inevitable. But this stuff isn't pandering; it's simply stupid. Al Gore's own climate allies separated themselves from his preposterous free-of-oil-in-10-years whopper. Sen. McCain saying off-handedly that it's "doable" is, in a word, thoughtless.

Speaker Pelosi heads a House with a 9% approval. To let her off the hook before the election reflects similar loss of thought.

The forces arrayed against Sen. McCain's candidacy are formidable: an unpopular president, the near impossibility of extending Republican White House rule for three terms, the GOP trailing in races at every level, a listless fundraising base, doubtful sentiments about the war, a flailing economy.

The generic Democratic presidential candidate should win handily. Barack Obama, though vulnerable at the margin, is a very strong candidate. This will be a turnout election. To win, Mr. McCain needs every Republican vote he can hold.

Why make it harder than it has to be? Given such statements on Social Security taxes, Al Gore and the "inspirational" Speaker Pelosi, is there a reason why Rush Limbaugh should not spend August teeing off on Mr. McCain?

Why as well shouldn't the Obama camp exploit all of this? If Sen. Obama's "inexperience" is Mr. McCain's ace in the hole, why not trump that by asking, "Does Sen. McCain know his own mind?"

* * *
In this sports-crazed country, everyone has learned a lot about what it takes to win. They've heard and seen it proven repeatedly that to achieve greatness, to win the big one, an athlete has to be ready to "put in the work."

John McCain isn't doing that, yet. He's competing as if he expects the other side to lose it for him. Sen. McCain is a famously undisciplined politician. Someone in the McCain circle had better do some straight talking to the candidate. He's not some 19-year-old tennis player who's going to win the U.S. presidential Open on raw talent and the other guy's errors. He's not that good.

There is a reason the American people the past 100 years elevated only two sitting senators into the White House -- JFK and Warren Harding. It's because they believe most senators, adept at compulsive compromise, have no political compass and will sell them out. Now voters have to do what they prefer not to. Yes, Sen. McCain has honor and country. Another month of illogical, impolitic remarks and Sen. McCain will erase even that. Absent a coherent message for voters, he will be one-on-one with Barack Obama in the fall. He will lose.

Write to henninger@wsj.com
The inbred "it's his turn now - he earned it" politics of the RINO party (remember Dole and his "turn"?) and every (R) who voted against Ron Paul because he was too "radical" (as if Liberty can be radical" :roll: ) created this situation.

It was pointed out to me that Tories in England (conservatives) have been getting their hats handed to them for several years by the Labour Party (Progressive Liberals). This year the Tories decided that they were actually going to act like conservatives, and follow conservative principles. It is amazing how quickly they rose in popularity with the English people. Now they rank 22% higher in popularity than Labour.

Wow, imagine that, Conservatives actually acting like Conservatives. If we were to toss out all of the Rino's the Republican Party could maybe get some traction, but not as long as they keep coddling, praising, acting like and/or "reaching across the aisle" to Democrats. :evil:
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Leverdude
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by Leverdude »

Alot of good points made in this discussion. But IMO McCain is still a dirtbag. Less than Obama but not on our side by a long shot.
Ron Paul should have won the nomination. Even if you dissagree about his stance on the war his other qualities more than make up for it. I dont see his reluctance to go around nation building as hiding his head in the sand. Likely if he were in the big chair on 9/11 we would have taken action against Saudi Arabia where the attack came from & once done left. He might have taken Iraq out, not for imaginary terrorists & WMD tho, but instead for renegging on a promise that ended hostilities. IMO Bush's biggest mistake in Iraq was mentioning terror or WMD. They violated an agreement, nuff said, too much talk can screw you every time.

RP has a more isolationist view than any modern politician than I can think of. IMO the golden years of America were when we did not NEED anybody. We interacted, we contributed, but we did not need. When it became prudent we could back off the global scene & let the idiots act as they chose. The crazies, yes there were ALWAYS crazy islamic nutcases, focused on those that were interfering in their world. We were safe simply because our hand wasn't in the hive. Now, we are up everyones butt across the globe & are paying the logical price for it.
Wanting us dead & being able to do it are two different things. :wink: If we paid attention 9/11 wouldn'ta happened. It did & thats behind us but the true guilty people are unscathed while we run in circles in Iraq.

All that aside I wish there was someone worth voteing for on the Rep ticket.
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RIHMFIRE
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by RIHMFIRE »

This election is about simple math....
anyone on this board...who vote for osama obama...well...is an
you fill in the blank...
anyone who votes for anyone else...whether its Bob Barr or a Ron Paul write-in,
and I like both these guys...is handing the election to osama obama..
You can rant and rave allllllll you want about the others...they will lose...
With Mcain we have a chance to stop some of the BS thats coming our way....
He is not my choice....
But....Its a long time to the election....
and maybe we will get lucky and something will happen at the convention...
and our deligates will see the light...but fat chance on that one...
Personally I wouldnt mind seeing Newt come into the picture.
Every for years we go through the same bs....and it ....well...
puts me in a bad mood...ruins my hunting season...
LETS GO SHOOT'N BOYS
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FWiedner
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by FWiedner »

I can't add anything useful to the larger coversation at this time, so I'll just express an opinion on the last point.

McCain voters don't really care if there is a conservative in the whitehouse, just as long as thre's someone with an (R) behind their name. It could be Ted Kennedy and they'd crow themselves hoarse about how he had changed.

McCain voters had a chance to vote for a real conservative, to stick to the plan the founders laid out, but the thought of actual freedom scared them, so they lied to themselves because they are afraid that big nanny government might actually go away and leave them alone.

Every vote for Obama is a vote for Obama, and every vote for McCain is a vote for Obama. Short of some crime being committed, McCain really doesn't have a chance.

If McCain weren't running, he'd jump at the chance to be Obama's VP.

:(
Government office attracts the power-mad, yet it's people who just want to be left alone to live life on their own terms who are considered dangerous.

History teaches that it's a small window in which people can fight back before it is too dangerous to fight back.
tman
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by tman »

+ 1 for what F WIEDNER said. had bush been a dem , and attacked iraq, along with the patriot act, i gaurantee the repubs would scream rape,while the dems would praise him as a strong leader and protector. between mccain and ohbama i see very little difference. mccain will continue the corporate tax breaks, which shift the burden from federal to state, to local level to make up the short fall. it becomes a regressive tax on the poor. ohbama will propose social welfare programs to the poor, with becomes a regressive tax on the lower, middle classs. cain't see a win here no matter what. :( :|
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Old Time Hunter
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by Old Time Hunter »

Some one please tell me what personal act of sacrifice has Obama illustrated in his life that backs up his resolve as to his patriotism to this country? How about his expression of, or lack of, identity to the symbols for which it stands? And what is a policy of change? Change for change's sake?

Now, how about McCain? What do his actions during his life tell you about his character? About our country? How many times in the service to our country, in the Senate and the House, has he voted for a bill that had "pork" designated for his constituents?

And some one please tell me how Bush fits into this election...did not know he was running. Also know, McCain is NOT his buddy...think back to 2000, McCain was leading in the poles in the pre-primaries and Bush Sr. pulled in markers from the party hiearchy to have McCain ousted from the ticket through persuasion. By the way, I have never cared for either Bush, but the alternatives were worse!

As far as Social Security, Reagan had it figured out, would have been a surplus for a 100 years. To bad Bush Sr. and Clinton screwed it up by raiding it. Now we face a dilemma, well in about 35 years, that of course will probably be my childrens issue. Which is wrong. But, I would agree to a 1% increase in SS tax, provided, none can be touched for any "costs" of government. The only people that will make out in a "private" system will be the money changers, and of course, they will invest in oversees companies that utilize low cost countries.

Thats my .02, and I am sticking to it.
C. Cash
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by C. Cash »

tman wrote:+ 1 for what F WIEDNER said. had bush been a dem , and attacked iraq, along with the patriot act, i gaurantee the repubs would scream rape,while the dems would praise him as a strong leader and protector. between mccain and ohbama i see very little difference. mccain will continue the corporate tax breaks, which shift the burden from federal to state, to local level to make up the short fall. it becomes a regressive tax on the poor. ohbama will propose social welfare programs to the poor, with becomes a regressive tax on the lower, middle classs. cain't see a win here no matter what. :( :|

I have to get this out.....it is directed at no one personally. Here goes.....
Unless a President is targeting innocent folks, deliberately misleading the American people or in some other way acting immorally, it is a pee poor thing to try and rip the President to shreds because you don't like him and/or for political gain, in a time of War. Not because it hurts the Presidents feelings, but because in so doing you undermine support for our troops on the ground. As a Republican during Clinton's Presidency, how could I have ripped his attacking radical terrorists in Somalia? No way...he was attacking the bad guys. I don't recall a large number of Conservatives attacking him during these times either. We attacked the bad guys in Iraq...Hussein murdered upwards of 1 million of his own people, raped and tortured scores more, among a laundry list of crimes. It is extremely bad form, to put it politely, to do what the Left has done while our men are taking fire from a determined enemy and being killed by them. The Left should have refrained from their unabated and largely unsubstantiated attacks on Bush until success was much more complete and our men out of harms way. They continue to do it even after a good bit of success. Did Vietnam teach us nothing? They have done it solely to win votes and sell their mass media, and at the cost of the lives of our men. Now I'm pretty sure I know what your thinking.....someone trying to squash the Constitution and free speech. But what I'm saying is men and women should, by some Code of honor that used to exist in the country, refrain voluntarily from doing what the Left has done during this War. I would have cried foul if the Republicans had done it, and may yet get the chance.
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
tman
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by tman »

it's the sacred duty of any american to cry foul when that citizen beleives in his heart , that leader is wrong. there is no political gain here. i've only reported the actions that this president has taken. if, in pointing out, the action's that he took can be conscrued as ripping him to shreds[not my phrase] then what does that say? i thought my last post was pretty civil, pointing out the weaknesses of both candidates. it's cool if u don't agree with what i say. will the truth{ in my humble opinion] undermine the sucesses on the war on terrorism and jepordise national security? i hope not. if it does then we are all in trouble.
bunklocoempire
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by bunklocoempire »

If we truly are concerned about our service men and women these questions need to be addressed.

What exactly defines success combating enemies who use terrorist tactics? And how exactly is that success to be acheived?

What are we as a Country actually defending?

Our lives?
Our borders?
Our Constitution/Sovereignty?
Our standard of living?
American business interests?
Other countries lives, borders, constitutions/sovereignty, standard of living, business interests?

All, none, a combination?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/nationalsecurity/ Fighting a Global War on Terror President Bush is committed winning the War on Terror by defeating our enemies abroad so we do not have to confront them here at home.

"We will prevail. We will prevail in this ideological struggle because liberty is powerful. Liberty is hopeful. The enemy we face can only convince people to join their cause is when they find hopelessness. And so our strategy is threefold: one, protect the homeland; two, stay on the offense against these folks; and three, provide an alternative -- a hopeful alternative to despair and doubt and hopelessness." President Bush

"The enemy we face can only convince people to join their cause is when they find hopelessness."

You'll notice President Bush does not address a cause of "hopelessness", I guess that's left up to any one's imagination, I suppose one could assume "hopelessness" is caused by lack of Liberty which he describes as hopeful.

Providing an alternative to "hopelessness", sure, we can provide that around the globe for folks who want it or don't yet know they want it, how brilliant. :x

Bunkloco
“We, as a group, now have a greater moral responsibility to act than those who live in ignorance, once you become knowledgeable you have an obligation to do something about it.” Ron Paul
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FWiedner
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Re: Political - Yep, the election doesn't matter...

Post by FWiedner »

I've been thinking about a McCain ad...

-------

We open with a low aerial shot panning down into a clean neighborhood. A pleasant suburb, somewhere in middle-America.

I see a hunched old man standing on his front porch waving a newspaper held in a gnarled fist and yelling at a nearby group of playing children...

"YOU KIDS STAY OFFA MY LAWN!"

As the children depart, laughing and flinging old man jokes over their shoulders, the old man stands on his porch, hesitant, because he has forgotten where he is and why he is there. He begins to look about, wild-eyed, and a high-pitched wail escapes from his throat.

Instantly, a lovely elderly lady appears in the doorway behind him and says to him in a soothing voice "John dear, let's come inside. It's time for JAG to come on." The nice lady opens the door and takes him tenderly by the elbow to turn him toward the door.

As the old gent turns his back on the camera and dodders into the house, we zoom in slightly and observe the growing wet spot on the seat of his khaki trousers, which are hiked up to near his armpits. His leaky Depends is discharging a portion of it's burden.

As we fade to black, the closing voice over..."McCain. You'll get what you asked for."

:|
Government office attracts the power-mad, yet it's people who just want to be left alone to live life on their own terms who are considered dangerous.

History teaches that it's a small window in which people can fight back before it is too dangerous to fight back.
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