I'm very frustrated about things happening here.

[J Miller]

When I started the thread: Musings from the Miller; The 94 can do it all! I did not say anything about anyones choice of hunting rifles. As a matter of fact I did not say anything specifically about hunting. I made no comments about other peoples needs or likes regarding scopes or bolt actions, or modern lever actions that use pointy type bullets.
Yet that thread has spawned two and maybe more over NOTHING! Certain members of this forum decided to harp on certain aspects of the 94s limitations even though those limitations had no bearing on the original post.
Now we have members feeling that hunters using scoped rifles are not considered "true" hunters.

Gentlemen, WE SPEAK ENGLISH. WORDS HAVE MEANING, READ EACH WORD AND QUIT PUTTING WORDS WHERE THERE ARE NONE!
I said nothing in my original post that deserved this amount of childish arguing, posturing, and bickering. NOTHING!

Here is the original text from my thread, read it one word at a time, so you'll get the entire meaning.
Don't put any words into it, and don't take any out.

I was sitting here reading the "How did you get here" six page thread when a thought hit me.

I have ALL the lever guns I'm likely to ever need. As a matter of fact I can sell some and still be OK.

The 94s can do it all. From .22 RF to pistol calibers all the ways to rifle calibers That one model is all you need.

.22 RF = Winchester 9422 or 9422M

Pistol calibers = Marlin Mdl 1894

Rifle calibers = Winchester 1894

That's it, three lever guns can do it all. Pick your game and go for it. Boy did I simplify things. OK, now I got a headache, this thinking is a lot of work. Where's my Excedrin?

Joe

This thread was ABOUT ME! Did you read that part? Did you? Some of you did not, at least not the first time.
I was sitting here reading the "How did you get here" six page thread when a thought hit me.

I have ALL the lever guns I'm likely to ever need. As a matter of fact I can sell some and still be OK.

Then I slipped into generalities. Did I use the word hunting? Did I say that the Mdl 94s were the best in the world?
Did I denigrate anybody or any other gun in my thread?

No, I did not. Others who responded to my original thread did this. Others who insisted on putting meanings into my text that did not exist. Who insisted on creating their own arguments where there were NONE to be found.

I'm really frustrated with several folks here right now. Almost to the point of going into the User Control Panel and blocking their posts.

This bull stuff is exactly why we lost ScottT, Junior, and why certain others who used to be regulars rarely come here any more.

This is a great forum, but if this tendency to bicker and argue doesn't stop we will loose what we have.

I've been here a long time, I don't like what I'm seeing. This borderline antagonism is costing us members. People who's presence adds to our whole. Without them we are less.
I'm just me, and I have no control over what goes on here, so all I can do is say my piece and hope my words are understood.



Joe

[Jayhawker]

Well, I read your post initially but didn't revisit it to read the follow-up posts. I didn't realize there was a rhubarb brewing there. I guess I'll track it down to view the mischief for myself. I've often entertained the same type of thoughts of being able to whittle down my collection while leaning toward Marlins myself, but I'd let others enjoy their preferences. Life would be too boring if we all preferred the same things.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

I'm not really involved in the other posts but I think this statement "That one model is all you need." is where you may have opened the door. I took it in a general sense (as you have clarified in this post) but I'm guessing that some people took it as you making an assumption on their behalf.

[Blaine]

Take a deep breath......you should have known that issuing a challange is throwing chum in the water.....I'm sure no one means you personal disrespect.... I was going to answer Why the heck settle for Wrenchester 94s when you can have Marlin 336, 1894, 1895 and 39s.....

[Hillbilly]

The Mossberg 500 is a superior boat paddle. I am emotionaly invested ...dammitt!

Jeff

[GANJIRO]

When I started the thread: Musings from the Miller; The 94 can do it all! I did not say anything about anyones choice of hunting rifles. (snip)

Here is the original text from my thread, read it one word at a time, so you'll get the entire meaning.
Don't put any words into it, and don't take any out.

I was sitting here reading the "How did you get here" six page thread when a thought hit me.

I have ALL the lever guns I'm likely to ever need. As a matter of fact I can sell some and still be OK.

The 94s can do it all. From .22 RF to pistol calibers all the ways to rifle calibers That one model is all you need.


Joe

I understand exactly what you were saying that it was applying strictly to you but I think others may have taken the above highlighted text out of context which lead to the misunderstanding. I have a friend on the Big Island a native Hawaiian who has owned just one rifle his whole life a 9422M which he has used to dispatch from quails to feral bulls and that's the only rifle HE felt he ever needed, and he was deadly with that thing, I saw him drop 3 Kalij Pheasants at 50 paces in the head in fading light. You were just stating your personal choice. Others stated their personal choice but it went crazy from there. We can agree on one thing- WE ALL LOVE LEVERGUNS!

[Old Savage]

Joe read you own post. "Pick your game and go for it." - it won't do for my game - long range flat shooting. If you said it does for all your use or within it's useful range you would be correct. It is essentially the refusal to see it's limitations and apply it where it is not advantageous that creates the issue. You refused to see the point. But, it's just a discussion. I didn't personally insult anyone and I have stuck with the facts as I have found them and personally used them. My first antelope was at 280 yds with a 6mm but it could as easily been my 243 BLR. The bullet hit where the cross hairs were because that is where it was sighted. I had already put over 1000 rds through that rifle and over 7500 through rifles like it. I consider the BLR like it - but more accurate, but still a levergun. I did not have to hold over and wasn't sure of the range. It didn't matter. Now off to play golf - more later.

[Rusty]

When you start a post stating your opinion it is my understanding that you are asking others to comment on your opinion. You are not stating a fact you are stating an opinion. I am the world's foremost expert on my own opinion. No one knows more about my opinion than me.

[NonPCnraRN]

Joe: I certainly hope my question about the average distance of hunting shots was not taken to impune anything you said. I was actually trying to determine if for most hunters, game shots are taken well within the range of a Model 94 variant. I used the 30-30 as it is the most common. I think if I were limited to one rifle I would pick a 94 in 30-30 AI and load it up or down per Sam Fadala's book. The 30-30 AI can be chambered in a rifle that is a pound less in weight than my 307BB and a deer wouldn't know the difference. It can be loaded down to the power of a 32 ACP and on up to almost 308 Win territory. I wish I had picked up a 9422 20 yrs ago but I was over on the "dark side" (AR-15s). Who'd of thunk Winchester would cease production of the 94. Looks like Mossberg has picked up the baton and will run with it. Hope they do well. I like the idea of a hardwood stock. If I want fancy walnut, I can pick out my own.

Anyway don't put to much into what others say here. I have unintentionally "misunderestimated" what others have said before and it won't be the last. I am not immune from foot-in-mouth syndrome myself so I try to give other people the benefit of the doubt, that when strong differing opinions are expressed, it is without malice.

[horsesoldier03]

Joe, if I were you I would take it with a grain of salt. I am a little more open in my opinions I guess than most. I enjoy reading all threads and get tired of opening the same type threads as always. IMO, Its nice to see people state their own opinions and beliefs. Leverguns is probably one of the longest websites that I have visited. It definately seems to have the least bickering, despite what Hobie and Am Col may think. (no dig intended guys!)
Personally, with winter over and all the good weather we are having, I think its time to do some shooting and looking forward to the stories that it may bring.

[O.S.O.K.]

I thought it was a good thread. Thought provoking.

I enjoyed the replies.

I'm enjoying that it's Friday too

[FWiedner]

I don't see why you'd feel a need to complain everybody else out just because your idea spawned other ideas.

People are entitled to discuss things other than what you want them to.

[ByronG]

"That one model is all you need".

"That's it, three lever guns can do it all. Pick your game and go for it."

Some disagree. It's not a crime nor a personal attack on you. Besides, the above quotes are open to interpretation.
Perhaps if you had said:
1. 'That one model is all I need.'
2. 'For me, three lever guns can do it all. In the 94 I have a gun for anything that I may encounter.'
This thing would have resulted in a few +1 type responses and been quickly forgotten. That said, I am pleased that it provoked such an interesting discussion.

[Borregos]

Hey Joe, lighten up!!
It is a good thread, thought provoking!

[Griff]

...It is essentially the refusal to see it's limitations and apply it where it is not advantageous that creates the issue. You refused to see the point...

I don't view it as a "refusal to see", but rather an acceptance and willingness to work within. I was a die-in-the-wool bolt guy for the vast majority of my hunting, but loved plinkin' with my .30-30s. Then I happened out to the range during a hi-power match. I believe I was dead last, but that started me on a quest to improve. 200 yards is not a real problem. After I got serious with my reloads, I accurized a Mdl 94. Then, miracously, I didn't finish LAST. Before the eyes got old I seldom did. Shortly thereafter, I started competing in SASS side matches with one and came up against other serious levergunners. I built my custom 94 as a target rifle. It still works, just wish my eyes did as well.

As background, I was given semi-& full-autos & boltguns for WORK in the military & LEO fields... they're TOOLs. While yes, I bought some for hunting, competition and work, they remained tools. But my SAs & leverguns are for enjoyment. Ever shot a hi-power match with a levergun? Ever shot Speed-Plates with a Colt SAA? The joy that is felt winning a stage against both DAs & autos is darn near like ... er... well... you figure it out. Topping the department's sniper score with a Winchester 94 in .30-30 is just as good, Whether it was due to him having an "off" day, or I was just "on". It was especially sweet since he & I have competed for everything from girls to fastest car to skateboard racin' down the Ortega Highway into San Juan Capistrano, to rifle & pistol matches, our military service & medals to... well, you get the idea.

Semi-autos, pumps, bolt and their ilk are tools, inanimate devices one utilizes to get a job done. SAs, doubles & levers have feelings, romance and the essence of life in their wood & steel. Ignore, or refuse to see their limitations? Never! Embrace and overcome my lack of talent & skill is the order of the day.

I have a Remington 700 variant in 7mmRemMag that is a sub-½ MOA rifle when I do my part, but I'd rather get beat with my 94 .30-30 than win with the Remington. I'd rather go home without taking a shot if I can carry my trienta-trienta. I didn't always feel that way, but maybe I've gotten in touch with my "feminine side"! Nah, since moving to TX, most game I see is inside 200 yards, often inside 30. It's changed my perspective on what I'm getting out of the hunt. Have I seen that trophy buck @ 300+? Yep, and with my bolt gun, he'd be on the wall... but, am I less a man becuase my stalk was unsuccessful? For me the answer is an emphatic, NO! There are all kinds of reasons for hunting, and for the enjoyment of it. Success in the game field, for me, is not solely predicated on any one factor, but it is enhanced when I can carry one of my .30-30s!

I was probably tainted the day @ age six, when my uncle let hold his nickel, 7-½" Colt SA and his 26" octagon barrelled Winchester 1894 in .38-55. Those were imprinted on my young psyche as what "real" guns looked and felt like. (See it ain't my fault)!

Intellectually, I understand and concur with what you've said, (except that "refuse to see" comment). I also hope that your more modern levers give you the same level of satisfaction that I enjoy.

Now, what I don't understand is how Joe can cling to that anemic, squat out-dated .45 Colt for a levergun!

I do understand that others feel exactly the opposite as I do. And I'm fine with that. It doesn't say:
on the door for no reason!

[Old Ironsights]

...I do understand that others feel exactly the opposite as I do. And I'm fine with that. It doesn't say:
on the door for no reason!

It says that because you prefer the Marlin designation over 30WCF?

[Old Savage]

Griff, much as I may like you, I will not be having you decided what should be stayed within for me. The issue here is clear and trying to steer around it does not change it's existence. 250 yd to 300 yd shots occur out here. If you practice and have the RIGHT equipment they are not hard.

[505stevec]

Dont laugh but up until I joined this forum I thought the Winchester 94 30-30 was the only levergun, although I had seen a Savage 99 in 300 Savage. It wasnt until I started here that I realized the wide variety out there. Besides when it comes to guns for my who the heck is talking NEED anyway. What I NEED is another gun.

[RSY]

250 yd to 300 yd shots occur out here.

Agreed. So, what was a fella to do out there before spitzers @ 2,500+ fps came along? I simply can't believe there was no firearms hunting in SoCal prior to a few years into the 20th century?

[Old Savage]

That is certainly not the point - there weren't even hunting seasons back then.

[claybob86]

Mr. Miller: You stirred up some very interesting ON TOPIC conversation here. I, for one, have enjoyed it very much! Please don't get offended by any differences of opinion. We're just yackin' around the fire here. Thanks for your continued participation here!

Clay

[El Chivo]

JM, I also thought it was a fun thread. We knew what you meant (sort of) yet most of us had something to say about it. I didn't catch any of the insults/animosity you're seeing.

If what you were expecting dozens of replies of "+1!" and "right on" and "me, too!", and nothing else, you ought to know us better than that. I think that's what frustrated the people who left, they couldn't tolerate any variance of opinion, even when they were asking, in fact begging, for it.

So relax. And get yourself a BLR.

by the way, when I sprained my ankle, my "94" was invaluable as a crutch. And unloaded you can toast marshmallows with it (the miniature ones fit right in the end of the barrel). So you see it really can do it all.

[NonPCnraRN]

I just realized that hunters and shooters haven't changed since hunting and shooting began. We can't all meet at the local gun shop to oogle guns and swap lies over a cup of coffee. Our fathers and grandfathers were arguing then and we are continuing the tradition via the internet. This forum is our campfire or wood stove with a pot of coffee to gather around. We're sharing our heartfelt feelings, our experience, our wisdom, our desires. We are men (and women) of strong conviction and are not easily dissuaded. That is a good thing. The fact that we can civilly disagree and still retain our common bond.....making gunsmoke is also a good thing. Things could be worse....we could act like elected officials or worse yet, like AR-15.com!

[Hobie]

Joe,

I apologize, I took the other posts to be purely humorous take-offs on your topic. I suppose I must have misread the whole deal. Then again, the Ford vs. Chevy type talk has been a staple in most places and most took your post that way.

For my part, your concept of only needing a couple of guns is a frightening one. Shooting (and related subjects) is the one thing that has consistently given me pleasure and I've been able to enjoy no matter where I've been. I need my guns.

[winchester1886]

Man O Man what's all the fighting and bickering about. I've been coming on here a fair while now on the original forum the last one we had and now this new one, and I've never seen anyone say anything that upset me enough to cause me not to come here I love the place I check in nearly every day, If I open up something I don't like I just close it down and go to something else that sounds like it may interest me, you Americans must be a lot more thin skinned then we Aussies are or our Canadian Cousins, so come on boys lets be happy the World ain't going to end tomorrow, my biggest fear is when all this fighting flares up that Paco will say enough is enough and close the place down, now that will really upset me.

[Charles]

Joe.. Don't get your axle twisted over this stuff. If you say the sky is up, there will be a few folks that will challenge you on that point. They most certainly will challege any gun issue. This seems to be endemic on gun boards. This has caused some of the true experts to draw down on their posting, as they got tired of having some of the shorthorns challenge them on every point. After a while you get tired of trying to prove to some ignoramus that you really do know what you are talking about.

I know it gets irritating, but you have not been specialy selected for this treatment. It is just more obvious when it happens to you.

[rjohns94]

joe, there was no personal attacks, and you invited the comments of others opinions. I thought the topic brought lots of great discussion and comments and other great threads. Again, there were no personal attacks. You knew the topic would stir the pot when you posted. its good to stir the pot and get the juices flowing in discussion. If you didn't want discussion on the topic, why post? We love you Joe, not sure why you have taken offense to the discussion. sorry that you have though.

[stretch]

Some folks are a bit full of themselves here - but that's a danger on the internet.
Still, this is mostly a FUN forum - and there is an enormous amount of knowledge
here. Some of it even concerns leverguns!

Read the current thread on the 30-30 vs. 32 Special - that's more like it.
I certainly felt better after reading it.........