POLITICS - TX Supreme court rules in favor of FLDS

[sore shoulder]

Makes a freedom loving fella wanna move to TX.



http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,360268,00.html

AUSTIN — In a crushing blow to the state's massive seizure of children from a polygamist sect's ranch, the Texas Supreme Court ruled Thursday that child welfare officials overstepped their authority and the children should go back to their parents.

The high court affirmed a decision by an appellate court last week, saying Child Protective Services failed to show an immediate danger to the more than 400 children swept up from the Yearning For Zion Ranch nearly two months ago.

"On the record before us, removal of the children was not warranted," the justices said in their ruling issued in Austin.

The high court let stand the appellate court's order that Texas District Judge Barbara Walther return the children from foster care to their parents. It's not clear how soon that may happen, but the appellate court ordered her to do it within a reasonable time period.

The ruling shatters one of the largest child-custody cases in U.S. history. State officials said the removals were necessary to end a cycle of sexual abuse at the ranch in which teenage girls were forced to marry and have sex with older men, but parents denied any abuse and said they were being persecuted for their religious beliefs.

The case before the court technically only applies to 124 children of the 38 mothers who filed a complaint that prompted the ruling, but it significantly affects nearly all the children since they were removed under identical circumstances.

The ranch is run by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which teaches that polygamy brings glorification in heaven. It is a breakaway sect of the Mormon church, which renounced polygamy more than a century ago.

Texas officials claimed at one point that there were 31 teenage girls at the ranch who were pregnant or had been pregnant, but later conceded that about half of those mothers, if not more, were adults. One was 27.

Under Texas law, children can be taken from their parents if there's a danger to their physical safety, an urgent need for protection and if officials made a reasonable effort to keep the children in their homes. The high court agreed with the appellate court that the seizures fell short of that standard.

[Old Time Hunter]

And here is a poll:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24881021/?previewmode=1

amazed that it is running 50/50, guess alot of people must feel that the government knows what is best for us better than ourselves!

[C. Cash]

It's all good and well for you fellers to be worried about the legality and abuse of power in this case. All of us should be worried. But I'm willing to bet that no one here is going to send their adolescent daughters over to the ranch for the fun and clean air either, are they? Sixteen very young girls(only the ones they know about) being told that they need to lie down with their arranged and/or spiritual husband, or go to hell, is still rape. One 13 year old girl would be too many if it is sanctioned and justified by the elders(we have tons of testimony from Jeff's trials and those who have escaped Jeff's churches that that is indeed what these men sanction and enforce) . This is not about polygamy. It's about the abuse of children, just as much as it's about the draconian methods of CYS/law enforcement. As freedom loving men we also need to be looking out for those who are powerless and have no voice, as well as the what applies to us. The Liberals are wonderful at looking out for themselves and "their kind" and ignoring those who really need help(the unborn being one example). I would have thought there would be much more concern for the girls here and their right to choose a life for themselves and to not be sexually abused, in addition to seeing that the letter of the law was upheld by the law. To quote One near and dear to many of us, we should have practiced the latter, without leaving the former undone.

[FWiedner]

I figure that the poll accurately reflects the percentages of the population as that portion who want a big nanny Govenrment versus those who want the government to just leave them the hell alone.

"As freedom loving men" we need to know when to butt out. These people have been living this way since before anyone on this board was born, and it is not contemporary society's place to tell them that their lifestyle is wrong.

They have a right to raise their children the best way they see as fit, just like you do. One man does not have a right to impose his values on another.

[Hobie]

Should old men rape young girls (or any female)? No. Should the government take children from grown women because they suspect that their husbands might have done that even though they have no evidence except a fraudulent phone call? No.

[eric65]

I don't agree with their beliefs, but I think that ruling was outstanding. ( not everyone agrees with mine either.)

[rjohns94]

+1 to what Hobie says

[Charles]

Chalk up another one for the rule of law.

[Old Ironsights]

Chalk up another one for the rule of law.

Not until the Children who were illigitimately abducted are given recompense and those who authorized/demanded their abduction and diaspora are convicted of criminal malfesance.

And we know how soon THAT will happen.

[C. Cash]

Chalk up another one for the rule of law.

For you and me, and those who can speak freely, yes. For these girls who cannot, or else face retribution, it's very likely that they lost in this case. The history of these men and the one they follow(Jeffs) doesn't give me much confidence in an overall win here.

[bogus bill]

Check the math on this.

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700229763,00.html

[Griff]

How many watched the special on TV the other night on polygamy and the FLDS? It left me even less inclined to "live and let live" for this particular sect. I came away with somewhat biased view of the whole issue of polygamy. In certain cases it may be workable, in other instances it leads to other ills. In regards to the sect under discussion, my understanding is that their "prophet" is behind bars, they basically enslave their members... There were allegations made and some documentation shown that demonstrates they forcibly wed underage girls off. And a more greivous sin, in my opinion, they stiffle any freedom of expression thru duress and "excommunication". I can find no sympathy in my heart for the leaders of this sect. Even the Amish allow their young adults to leave and test the "world of the English" for a period of time and return of their own free will. Without free choice, it is existence, not living.

I'll shut up now and go back to my enjoyment of leverguns.

[piller]

Two wrongs do not make a right.

[Ysabel Kid]

Chalk up another one for the rule of law.

Not until the Children who were illigitimately abducted are given recompense and those who authorized/demanded their abduction and diaspora are convicted of criminal malfesance.

And we know how soon THAT will happen.

Bingo! This is all fine and good, and I suspect those children are going to be mighty happy to be back with their families. But how about the terror they have experienced being ripped away, forceably, by the state?

The only way to prevent this kind of stuff in the future is to punish those who did this. I don't want to see any child abused, but I am not in a position to judge another's lifestyle just because I might not agree with it, unless it is obviously a imminent threat to the life of the child. There are those that would accuse all of us of child abuse because we have firearms in our home - subject our kids to shooting and the toxic chemicals that go with shooting and reloading - and, I suspect, most of us are firm believers in discipline. Should some government official have the right to rip our kids from us because they don't like how we choose to live? Let this stand, and pretty soon anyone who instructs their children on Christian principles - such as intelligent design/creationism, or that practicing homosexuality is a sin - will be deemed by the state as "unfit parents" who are "endangerings their children". It is a slipery slope, and there are plenty of people who don't believe any parents should have the right to contradict the orthodoxy taught by the state...

[C. Cash]

Ysabel,

Respectfully, none of what your talking about is even remontely equivalent to what has happened to some of these girls....what Jeff's himself was convicted of(edit: he was convicted as an "accomplice to rape"). Anyone who takes you to task by linking lawful actitivities that you do with your kids to the molestation of a young girl, should be called what they are, an imbicile and/or moron. There is very little rational thought with the radical left, so nothing that we do is going to stop them from accusing us of the absurd anyhow. They do it en masse, every day.

PS: I am not championing the methods that were used here. I think this was somewhat of a massive cluster hump. But I am saying I'm not ready to have a party when common sense tells me that these kids are quite likely being abused in this compound, at whatever rate and severity. That leaves me ill, and knowing that justice was most likely not done for all.

[mescalero1]

Griff,
Hit the nail on the head, thank you,
and I still do not understand that BLR in 22-250 with that Scope?

[bogus bill]

I live close to the original center of poligamy. We had a earlier thread here, and a similar one on the smith & wesson site. I spoke my mind, and was thought radical and ignoreing the consitution etc. Problem is I notice by address that most of that came from around the country where I am sure they never seen a poligamist.
I have wrote a lot on both sites, and not sure without research what I said on which site, but sure it has been consistant.
I started out both threads by asking other opinion when the raid came down on what people thought, as while I have seen a lot of things that do bother me about poligamy, I also am bothered by the wholesale carrying off over 400 kids and was quite sure it would backfire.
This subject cant be explained in even one book much less a few paragraphs.
What bothers me the most is the women and children are raised in such ignorance and that is also passed on as the kids grow to adults and passed on. Truth is they dont know they were abused, or are abuseing as that is what is normal and christian to them.
The girls have no say to whom they are given to marry. More often than not they are married to someone old enough to be their grandpa.
The gene pool is so limited that there is a lot of severe retardnation.
Most girls here were pulled out of school at 6th or maybe 6th grade.
The boys usualy are pulled out to work in a lot of construction business that the men have for free slave labor. I have seen what looked like a 10 year old roofing down the street.
I heard a 11 year old around st george got killed on a electric contract recently. Contractors have told me things are rough in my area as they cant compete with the flds as they have slave labor.
Since the ratio is a minimum of each man to have 3 wives, most of the boys are threw out on the road at about 16 or 17. Google "the lost boys".
Lots of men were thrown out and told to "go and repent from afar" not knowing what they had done, their wives and children were assigned to men in better standing with the profit. The wives wouldnt think of not going along with the program as they belive their soul is in the balence.
I firmly belive that something has to be done, but just what can and stay in bounds of the consitution?
I have seen people on both threads say, well just wait till you get a complaint then just go check that one house and not the entire sect.
Sounds reasonable to me too, had I not left wisconsin! These people live all together behind patroled fences. In hilldale and colorado city where these people were from before eldorado, the entire police dept AND the judge were all self proclaimed poligamists. Several women did try to escape, were picked up by the FLDS police who returned them and whose "Husbands" had them put in a private mental hospital in flagstaff ariz. The twin towns are in the middle of the dessert 30 miles from st. george. You get off the secondary road to go into their area, and more often then not, you are followed by one or two suv,s or trucks untill you leave. I been there. And this was before the eldorado raid. Does this sound like the united states? Sounds more like iraq!
Thats enough for now.

[Charles]

By a win for the rule of law, I did not mean that the clock would be rolled back and everything would be as before. The rule of law can not do that, nor remove human suffering. None of the legal remedies available to the children and parents can every turn back the hands of time.

I meant that the Court system saw that the law passed by the State Legislature was followed and not rewritten on the spot by the CPS folks. Those who are charged with enforcing the law were held to the standards of the law. That is always a good thing.

[Old Time Hunter]

On that note...we should invade the Berber countries since thay advocate harems! Indian culture for centuries advocated multiple wives. What makes these peoples beliefs so intolerable? Don't get me wrong, it is not for me(I can not seem to handle one wife on a daily basis, much less than multiple), but I have absolutely no belief in forcing my social expectations on people that think differently than I do. On top of that the there is nothing worse than using "authority" to force your beliefs on another segment of society. Since there are only 10 REAL laws in my book, I have to see if they broke any of them, from what I can ascertain, they did not.

We as a nation, and I've said this before, tolerated the same social criteria in the Appalachia area for a century, yet when it comes under the guise of a "religion" people get all up in arms about it. Maybe we should dig up Grover Cleveland and charge him with a travestity of society for being darn near 60 years old and marrying his best friends daughter (she was about 20, but had been under Grover's care since she was 13).

[Hobie]

Ysabel,

Respectfully, none of what your talking about is even remontely equivalent to what has happened to some of these girls....what Jeff's himself was convicted of(edit: he was convicted as an "accomplice to rape"). Anyone who takes you to task by linking lawful actitivities that you do with your kids to the molestation of a young girl, should be called what they are, an imbicile and/or moron. There is very little rational thought with the radical left, so nothing that we do is going to stop them from accusing us of the absurd anyhow. They do it en masse, every day.

PS: I am not championing the methods that were used here. I think this was somewhat of a massive cluster hump. But I am saying I'm not ready to have a party when common sense tells me that these kids are quite likely being abused in this compound, at whatever rate and severity. That leaves me ill, and knowing that justice was most likely not done for all.

Chris,

Now you've known me a bit. I don't like flying off the handle and would like to deal with this in a logical way.

If you have a gun, you might be abusing your child so your child could be taken from you AND your wife (accused of no crime and a possible victim, too) and placed in foster care. Now you wouldn't go for that, would you?

How about you have a child with a somewhat common but "hidden" medical condition. You've struck upon a means of dealing with this disease that provides benefits for your child and doesn't worsen the disease. Unfortunately, doctors (i.e. "experts") have decided that this is wrong and never works (heck, they might have misdiagnosed your child to begin with) and they say you're putting your child in danger. They take your child from you. Would that be fine with you?

It isn't the first time we've done this. Native American children were taken from their parents and forced to attend schools, white-style. Why, because we didn't agree with their life-style and could control them.

These folks look different and believe differently and they teach their children their beliefs. We, most of the rest of the U.S. disagree so our agencies take their children EN-MASSE and put them in foster care.

Answer me this, why aren't all MUSLIM children taken from their families? Hey, aren't the Amish denying THEIR children TV time? Let's get those kids as well. Heck THEY dress funny.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

I think there's lots to be said for the slippery slope argument. I think we have to be very careful about painting with the broad brush to demonize a group and using that to attack them. Someday, soon perhaps, that tactic will be used against all of us, "violent" gunowners.

[sore shoulder]

Just for the record here, I completely advocate a legitimate investigation of any credible reports of child abuse. And I mean credible, not an uncorroborated anonymous phone call tip. If they can produce some reasonable evidence, then each instance should be treated individualy, not cumulatively as a group as happened here. This is no different than if the CPS came in and removed every child from the small town near me, because someone from Denver made an anonymous tip that there was a child being abused in one home in this town.



Bogus Bill,

Let me briefly share some personal baggage here. I have been privy to some of the customs and areas you speak of. As a child I was in the care of "devout" Mormon foster parents who had relatives in St George, Provo, and Salt Lick, and we visited these areas very regularly. The mother was the most evil person I have ever known, and my sisters and I suffered unimagineable things at her hands, my sisters in particular were scarred for life. So when I speak of Constitutional Liberty in reference to this case, I am speaking from a position that probably no one else here has, and with a severe personal prejudice against Mormonism in general, even though I have a number of friends who are Mormon. In fact, I can share a detail via PM that I feel fairly certain you will know who one of these foster parents were. You may even know or be related to them if you are from that area.




FWeidener, the staffer that reads your letter should get a good laugh.

[Hobie]

At the risk of sounding flippant, I've known several SERIAL polygamists. They and or the courts force their children into their new families, change their names and do all sorts of things the children think are "abusive".

Also, once again, I have to note that many/most people have grandmothers (however many generations you have to go back) who were married at age 13-15 with the full approbation of their families and communities even though their husband were often in their mid to late 20s (when they had income to support a family). You might know of one (or more) in your family. Have you ever suspected those grandfathers of evil intent? Would you have thought their descendents better off if they were taken from the family?

It seems to me that we think childhood extends much later than it once did.

[505stevec]

I figure that the poll accurately reflects the percentages of the population as that portion who want a big nanny Govenrment versus those who want the government to just leave them the hell alone.

"As freedom loving men" we need to know when to butt out. These people have been living this way since before anyone on this board was born, and it is not contemporary society's place to tell them that their lifestyle is wrong.

They have a right to raise their children the best way they see as fit, just like you do. One man does not have a right to impose his values on another.

That sir is an assinine statement. exosing children of that age to prearranged sex with a man (spiritual leader) is a crime. This is not the dark ages. Hate the Government if you will but please do not justify Child Sexual Abuse. There is no justification except to those who do it.

[Old Savage]

Hobie, you point out that this is not all as simple as the talking heads would have you believe and the enforcement agencies far over reached in executing "their" judgement. I hope the kids have the path to sue them.

They should have individually gone after the men in a legal way for statutory rape if they actually had the evidence.

[sore shoulder]

exosing children of that age to prearranged sex with a man (spiritual leader) is a crime. This is not the dark ages. :

Apparently it is, since most of the petty little third world countries that make up the UN practice that very behavior.

[bogus bill]

delieted

[bogus bill]

Sore shoulder, it would be a fluke if we personaly knew your foster parents. We are related to no one in the area, and didnt know anyone here before moveing here 3 1/2 years ago. My mother in law is from ariz, but a lot further south, I think. However glad to know that someone else knows the score of what I been saying! Thanks

[JohnnyReb]

Gentlemen:
In the original posts on this subject I had been a thorn in the side of the government because of the unlawful conduct of CPS in this case. This case is ending as I had thought it would BUT NOT as I hoped it would.

One member of the board kept saying: Let the Courts decide.... Let the system work. Well, they did and it did...... and some young girls have been returned to abusive relationships. The System failed to protect SOME children.

I know that many of you, OI especially, are dumbfounded by the apparent contradiction of my positions..... However;

Because the government chose to break the law then it lost the legitimate ability to enforce the law. This the only option left to the courts. If the government plays by the rules then it will almost always win.

I am sure there are some CPS people blaming the courts for returning some of the children to abusive relationships. It is not the fault of the Court but of the CPS themselves who chose to ignore the constitution and become prosecutor, then judge and jury.

It is a win for the constitution, a loss for the system and a loss for some of the children. It could have been a positive outcome if the law had been followed.

I am pleased the constitution was protected but it is a shame it was at the expense of some children.

[Dirty Dan]

I heard it was said at the time by some of the DPS & Texas Rangers, when you go in looking for criminals and can't find any, you don't round up and arrest the victims.

[piller]

Dirty Dan, I agree with you. I admit that I have a problem with how CPS conducted the raid. If the perpetrators would have been have arrested if the evidence was there, then I would have wholeheartedly supported it. Again, two wrongs do not make a right. I am concerned now that if there is child abuse truly going on there, then this fiasco will make it almost impossible to prove in a court of law.

[Old Ironsights]

Gentlemen:
In the original posts on this subject I had been a thorn in the side of the government because of the unlawful conduct of CPS in this case. This case is ending as I had thought it would BUT NOT as I hoped it would.

One member of the board kept saying: Let the Courts decide.... Let the system work. Well, they did and it did...... and some young girls have been returned to abusive relationships. The System failed to protect SOME children.

I know that many of you, OI especially, are dumbfounded by the apparent contradiction of my positions..... However;

Because the government chose to break the law then it lost the legitimate ability to enforce the law. This the only option left to the courts. If the government plays by the rules then it will almost always win.

I am sure there are some CPS people blaming the courts for returning some of the children to abusive relationships. It is not the fault of the Court but of the CPS themselves who chose to ignore the constitution and become prosecutor, then judge and jury.

It is a win for the constitution, a loss for the system and a loss for some of the children. It could have been a positive outcome if the law had been followed.

I am pleased the constitution was protected but it is a shame it was at the expense of some children.

Methinks you have me confused with someone else. I don't recall being dumbfounded by your position... as it is rather similar to mine....

[ByronG]

exosing children of that age to prearranged sex with a man (spiritual leader) is a crime. This is not the dark ages. :

Apparently it is, since most of the petty little third world countries that make up the UN practice that very behavior.

Care to name a few?

[C. Cash]

Ysabel,

Respectfully, none of what your talking about is even remontely equivalent to what has happened to some of these girls....what Jeff's himself was convicted of(edit: he was convicted as an "accomplice to rape"). Anyone who takes you to task by linking lawful actitivities that you do with your kids to the molestation of a young girl, should be called what they are, an imbicile and/or moron. There is very little rational thought with the radical left, so nothing that we do is going to stop them from accusing us of the absurd anyhow. They do it en masse, every day.

PS: I am not championing the methods that were used here. I think this was somewhat of a massive cluster hump. But I am saying I'm not ready to have a party when common sense tells me that these kids are quite likely being abused in this compound, at whatever rate and severity. That leaves me ill, and knowing that justice was most likely not done for all.

Chris,

Now you've known me a bit. I don't like flying off the handle and would like to deal with this in a logical way.

If you have a gun, you might be abusing your child so your child could be taken from you AND your wife (accused of no crime and a possible victim, too) and placed in foster care. Now you wouldn't go for that, would you?

How about you have a child with a somewhat common but "hidden" medical condition. You've struck upon a means of dealing with this disease that provides benefits for your child and doesn't worsen the disease. Unfortunately, doctors (i.e. "experts") have decided that this is wrong and never works (heck, they might have misdiagnosed your child to begin with) and they say you're putting your child in danger. They take your child from you. Would that be fine with you?

It isn't the first time we've done this. Native American children were taken from their parents and forced to attend schools, white-style. Why, because we didn't agree with their life-style and could control them.

These folks look different and believe differently and they teach their children their beliefs. We, most of the rest of the U.S. disagree so our agencies take their children EN-MASSE and put them in foster care.

Answer me this, why aren't all MUSLIM children taken from their families? Hey, aren't the Amish denying THEIR children TV time? Let's get those kids as well. Heck THEY dress funny.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

I think there's lots to be said for the slippery slope argument. I think we have to be very careful about painting with the broad brush to demonize a group and using that to attack them. Someday, soon perhaps, that tactic will be used against all of us, "violent" gunowners.

I agree, and do my best to speak up for everyone when I can(hence me speaking up for the girls, who currently have no voice in this process). The victimization of powerless and voiceless people really gets me fighting mad, as it runs counter to my Faith and what I believe to be the American spirit. As to your and Ysabel's points, all I can say is that we will have to fight each of these fights individually, and guard against government encroachment. The uber left has been connecting irrational relationships for a very long time now, in order to move closer to their Utopia. There is no counter to their devolving into irrational connections(ie guns in the home equal immenent danger for children etc). They aren't going to stop thinking this way, no matter what we do or how we try to appear to them. The only answer is to change the next generation by working from our own homes outward, vote, educate the undecided and perhaps most importantly share our Faith, IMHO.

My simple? point was this in my previous posts: I ain't doing the two step over this because it is very rational to believe that some of these girls are being abused, based not on the stereotyping and pigeon holing of religeous folks(I am a Christian myself, and know what that is like), but the fact that this church group has a proven history of this type of abuse of adolescent and early teen girls. It's a matter of record. These folks follow Warren Jeffs. The systematically coerced abuse of young girls should not stand in this great land in any guise, religeous or no, as government abuse of power should not stand either. The girls are probably the ultimate loser in all this, at this point, as has been pointed out.

[Jeeps]

I AM GETTING SICK AND TIRED OF PEOPLE STICKING UP FOR TX AND CPS
IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE.

For the love of all things holy, if you have proof you've been sitting on for the
last month or so please tell the TX authorities. They need your help.

I personally think they are doing bad stuff at FLDS but I have no proof to go in
there and rectify it. STOP HOLDING OUT GUYS, YOU SOUND LIKE YOU'VE SEEN
IT FIRST HAND.

Just wait till someone thinks your doing a no-no and your door gets busted in
you'll be crying like a little monkey with your hand slammed in a car door.

I hope you don't have to see the day when you get "collected" by the authorities and taken
away till you prove your innocence. Don't we know how this is supposed to work here?

Holy socialist party batman

[Old Time Hunter]

Yea, what Jeeps said!

I think that is the whole point, supposition and innuendo coupled with self righteous mores equals omnipotent power to circumvent any unelianable rights of the target. In the BIG picture, I believe that is the more important blasephemy to freedom in this country than the "possiblility" of wrong doing to an individual. What is next?

Then we also have a magistrate that ignores the law:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24887140

[C. Cash]

reply deleted

[Leverdude]

Innocent until proven guilty. Simple concept.

[AJMD429]

How many watched the special on TV the other night on polygamy and the FLDS?

Yeah . . . and how many have seen Michael Moore's TV special on Columbine. Generally if I see it on television, I assume the TRUTH is 90 to 180 degrees from what was shown.

Again, compare the relative risk of a few weird religious folks vs. an oppressive government, and history will show you clearly that we have far more to fear from a future Hitler than some charismatic religious leader in charge of a few hundred families, whether or not he's a pervert by our definition.

[bogus bill]

If it smells like a duck-----, I know that most of the people by chance, dont live around flds. Probley never seen a poligamist, except on a vacation in utah. If you are interested or outraged at EITHER side of the controversy at least research some facts! Google old news storys of stuff leading up to this raid, or use this fast link.

http://www.rickross.com/groups/polygamy.html

[Jeeps]

I will always err on the side of freedom. It isn't just our military that sheds
blood for freedom, suffering is a part of freedom.

Those that followed Jim Jones down to Guyana had the freedom to do so. Yes,
they had children. You can't find a group of people who don't have children, it's
part of the makeup of society they are always present. Jones was a filthy scumbag
who took advantage of people for personal grandstanding. The children were
innocent victims. Welcome to the real world.

You know the type of people in this country who scream that CPS did the right
thing????? Yes, most of them would like to see our children taken away for having
to suffer in a house with firearms present. This is the way they think. If they
don't agree with our lifestyle then our lifestyle should be eradicated.

ANYTHING that happens concerning a large group of people will involve children.
Don't let that be a "heart string" they can use to lead you around to do their
bidding.

It's the new "lever" that is used to get their work done.

It's not "for the children" even though they have convinced themselves it is.
It's for what they want and the kids are leverage.

Sad, but true.

[Lefty Dude]

You as tax payers are footing the bill to support those children in that Cult Compound.

Every one of those Mothers are on welfare and receive checks every Month that the Men get from the Women. They use this money to expand there compound & perversion. They know how to work the system to there monentary gain.

They use the Children as Slaves, also the Women.

When they file for and receive State & Federal fund for Welfare & Contracts with our Money. Then they are subject to the appropriate Law enforcement.

This is the very thing that got them in trouble with the State of Arizona and the State of Utah. Both States have on going investigations with this group.
And is also why most have left Arizona & Utah.

Good Luck Texas, now it is your problem too.

They got Greedy

[Jeeps]

When they file for and receive State & Federal fund for Welfare & Contracts with our Money. Then they are subject to the appropriate Law enforcement.

So the molesting was a cover story?

Maybe the gubment didn't like them cutting into their racket? Sorta a mob-type strong arming?

What is appropriate law enforcement? Kidnapping to prevent tax abuse issues?

I'm trying to grasp this. I thought someone made a phonecall and reported
an unsubstantiated case of molestation. CPS swooped in "for the children" of
course, and rescued them. Now they are searching for "proof" to backup
their actions and can't seem to find any. No adult male has been charged
with anything, let alone detained, and I hear an awful lot of folks screaming
for blood. Sounds like people have been well trained.

All they needed to do was a proper investigation and I am quite sure they
would have found what they needed and people would have been well served
by this course of action. Lets not talk about how "secretive" the FLDS is we
managed to keep a good eye on the USSR for many years as well as a lot
of other "locked down" countries. We have the means and we know how to
use them also. Law enforcement knows what they are doing and how to conduct
a proper investigation.

There are "rules" to be followed. "We the people" are expected to follow them.
Our elected and appointed officials shouldn't be expected to do any less.

The day I am allowed to break the law with no fear of incarceration I will
be more than willing to cut them the same slack.

[bogus bill]

Just wondering what the same people and public outcry would have been had jim jones took his 1000 + flock to eldorado instead of guyena and over 1000 commit suicide there? Also heavens gate of 38 suicide in 1997 in san diego. No huge outcry on heavens gate as none were small kids.
Jim jones group were a high percentage of kids. Think there was "brain washing" involved? Think it cant happen again? Adults can and will commit suicide. Their "religious" freedom nor the consitution should give them the right to do the same to their children.
Just how is a "investigation" going to be done to a 1000 people group in a closed society behind a patroled fence on a complaint that must be checked out? I dont know either.
This was a bogus complaint. In the past here in utah there was legitmate complaints brought forth by women that when caught by the poligamist police dept in colorado city and hilldale trying to escape, were taken back to the husbands who in turn, had them commited to a private mental "hospital" in flagstaff. That has been documented.
I suspect that and similar storys the texas cps knew and jumped on when they got the bogus complaint. Also, there were reports that while on the run, jeffs had hand selected "perfect" children from other compounds here and in canada to be sent to eldorado. Hence, cps doing the dna testing to make sure the kids are returned to their actual parents.
The public jumps on the headlines, but should read further into the background of the news behind the news.
I dont have the answers, or can say what I would have done, but I do know the story as much as possible without being a flds that I do understand the problems of " the lost boys", the knowledge of those that have escaped, and the impossibility of the ones inside scared to rat off others, and I do see almost daily, the flds around me and the storys of contractors here that arent able to compete with flds contractors because of the slave labor of their kids on jobs etc.
You just about have to live here and study them as I have to begin to understand the problem. Easy to quarterback when you live in the east and never really heard of them untill the last 3 months or so.
We have congressional hearings over athleits takeing steroids etc, real important stuff like that! But I guess we want to "just live and let live" with forcied marrages, child slave labor, child abuse etc.
Like I give a pelosi if a athliet uses steroids, but this shouldnt be important?

[Lefty Dude]

Just wondering what the same people and public outcry would have been had jim jones took his 1000 + flock to eldorado instead of guyena and over 1000 commit suicide there? Also heavens gate of 38 suicide in 1997 in san diego. No huge outcry on heavens gate as none were small kids.
Jim jones group were a high percentage of kids. Think there was "brain washing" involved? Think it cant happen again? Adults can and will commit suicide. Their "religious" freedom nor the consitution should give them the right to do the same to their children.
Just how is a "investigation" going to be done to a 1000 people group in a closed society behind a patroled fence on a complaint that must be checked out? I dont know either.
This was a bogus complaint. In the past here in utah there was legitmate complaints brought forth by women that when caught by the poligamist police dept in colorado city and hilldale trying to escape, were taken back to the husbands who in turn, had them commited to a private mental "hospital" in flagstaff. That has been documented.
I suspect that and similar storys the texas cps knew and jumped on when they got the bogus complaint. Also, there were reports that while on the run, jeffs had hand selected "perfect" children from other compounds here and in canada to be sent to eldorado. Hence, cps doing the dna testing to make sure the kids are returned to their actual parents.
The public jumps on the headlines, but should read further into the background of the news behind the news.
I dont have the answers, or can say what I would have done, but I do know the story as much as possible without being a flds that I do understand the problems of " the lost boys", the knowledge of those that have escaped, and the impossibility of the ones inside scared to rat off others, and I do see almost daily, the flds around me and the storys of contractors here that arent able to compete with flds contractors because of the slave labor of their kids on jobs etc.
You just about have to live here and study them as I have to begin to understand the problem. Easy to quarterback when you live in the east and never really heard of them untill the last 3 months or so.
We have congressional hearings over athleits takeing steroids etc, real important stuff like that! But I guess we want to "just live and let live" with forcied marrages, child slave labor, child abuse etc.
Like I give a **** if a athliet uses steroids, but this shouldnt be important?

Well stated, The Eastern press are too much involved in protecting Lesiban's & gays than to protect our future, our Children.

Protecting the Children is only the part of the Story, it is much more.

[Hobie]

It is important, very much so, but we've got to have those that enforce the laws follow the rules. Right now it is alleged pedophiles, tomorrow it might be gun owners, the next day it could be people with the wrong sorts of books. It has happened before.

[Jeeps]

Don't forget to ask yourself exactly who's kids these are. Anytime, anyplace.

Yours included.

Put them in a car, dangerous. Go target shooting, dangerous. As a matter of
fact if they are ever outside the padded walls closet in your house they are
kept in it's dangerous.

Do the kids belong to the state? It certaintly seems to be headed that way.

We could neuter people who don't live the way we want them to, that would
prolly solve everything.

Let's just make more laws and more gov. agencies to enforce them maybe
someday we will have enough of them to keep us safe.

If the gov. could just hire "everyone" then no one could do wrong. ROFL

[bogus bill]

Okay, I will climb back in the barrel once again. 1st, I am of german of german decendt, love my people but despised natzi,s. I really like being around poligamists, but dont condone some of their practices. I love our kids and grandkids, but dont condone some of their practices. For instance one is shacked up, but I gave her the word (and him) they are welcome to come and see us, but to get a motel as I wont give my blessing to shacking up by letting them use the spare bedroom! And they understand it.
And yes, there was a period in my life that I shacked up, but I was wrong and told the kids so, and those days are gone.
What did jesus say and most christian religions claim? The one liner about love the sinner, but hate the sin!
Now maybe, just maybe, if I or others here are right, in telling you that the young girls have absolutely no say in whom they marry, say a 14 year old to a 50 year old man, and if I tell you that from a minimum of 400, (I have read as high as 1,200) young men, have been thrown out of a relatively small community as colorado city and hilldale, average age of 15 to 16 left on the side of the road, if it has been proven that a large number of girls somewhere each side of 14 has had kids by men three times their age, if I offer proof that fines have been paid from flds contractors for working young boys roofing etc, if I show you leads to tapes by warren jeffs telling his flock all kinds of prejudical things against blacks, not to challenge his authority in assigning husbands, to "keep sweet", to bleed the beast, and most other things I have wrote about, also ordering all dogs in town to be killed, no watching tv, no computers,
reassigning entire familys to another man, forbidding the kids from dateing each other, on and on and on,
Would ANY part of this, would it at all make you understand or change your premade opinion at all different?
Did not teddy roosvelt in 1904 go to the otherside of the world in the morockian affair of hostages, and in the lindburg kidnapping case did the goverment leave any stone unturned? Those were cases where just a few people were involved, not just hundreds and thousands.
My point is with all the info out there on the flds, is the goverment suppose to turn a blind eye in the name that it is their religious right to break laws?
Wheather it is a "religious" group, or a survival group, or just a "group" of people banned together of common warped ideas, why do we automaticly assume to label any investigation of it as religious persicution?
If we are not going to enforce the law, why dont we take it off the books?
I will answer my own question. Its because of the size of the situation. If one family somewhere that didnt proclaim it their religion, but did a fraction of these things, would be hung up to dry. In fact it happens somewhere every day of the week, but it isnt big news because they are indivigal cases. Here we have many doing it together, it would fill up the jails in our state and wouldnt hold a fraction of the people if the offending partys were arrested at the same time.
Its a replay of 1953. When the goverment turns a blind eye to the laws because they are impossable to enforce, as a example the illegals in this country, that now number, -you pick it, over 12 million at least this is the result! The goverment tried the same thing with the same people, with the same results in 1953. They tried then to enforce the laws about poligamy, wasnt as much about child abuse as this raid, yelding to public opinion then made it a disaster, and they still havent learned that lesson!
Under the law, the goverment HAD to investigate. I could and have said far more but it is on my prior threads and I am sick of typeing!

[Old Ironsights]

I absolutely agree that the gooberment had to investigate.

But they did NOT have to abduct 400+ children.

They did NOT have to treat them just like they treated the Neisi in the 40s.

They did NOT have to make a huge media circus out of it.

The DID have to arrest the MEN of whom they had reasonable suspicion... they did not.

They DID need to provide probable cause in specific incidents... they did not.

They preferred to make themselves Media Heros by "rescuing" 400+ children... and breaking up families on the flimisiest of Hearsay.

I have not, do not, and have never claimed to approve of anything the FLDS - or ANY LDS believes in. But as a matter of simple philosphical consistancy, I CANNOT and WILL NOT accept the position that it is appropriateor proper for any Person or Gooberment to use FORCE to impose its will on another person who is, for whatever reason, acceptant of their lot in life.

OTOH I would fight to the death to aid a woman/child who wanted to excape and was being prevented from doing so.

The difference is important. It applies to ANY individual, whether it be a Person or Nation. No one has the Right to Impose his/her will on another, nor provide them any undesired "aid". I have NO Right to keep a willing Mayrter from mayrtering themselves... so long as they are hurting no one other than themselves.

Once aid is asked for, then all bets are off.

In case you are wondering, that's also the difference between a Just and Unjust military intervention on foreign soil....

[FWiedner]

Bill, let me summarize your novela as best I understand it.

They raise their young girls within strict guidelines according to their beliefs and they arrange marriages. They work their young boys hard and reject rebellious teens. Their "prophet" might be a racist and doesn't like dogs. Our government has kicked *** for less. Religion is not a free pass to break the law. Why does anyone think this is about religion? Why have a law on the books that you don't occassionally use? The government tried this same action against the same people in 1953 with an equally flimsy excuse and it didn't work then either, but the law had to investigate.

That about do it?

Your only point seems to be that they just don't fit the mold and the law says we can kick 'em if we want to.

I couldn't live that way, but I don't see what they are doing wrong.

On another related subject, please enlighten me. What is the basis for outlawing polygamous marriage anyway? This seems to be an issue.

It's not forbidden in the Old Testament, and I don't recall reading where Jesus spoke against it.

[Kismet]

*NO SHRUG*

I will always err on the side of freedom. It isn't just our military that sheds
blood for freedom, suffering is a part of freedom.

Those that followed Jim Jones down to Guyana had the freedom to do so. Yes,
they had children. You can't find a group of people who don't have children, it's
part of the makeup of society they are always present. Jones was a filthy scumbag
who took advantage of people for personal grandstanding. The children were
innocent victims. Welcome to the real world.

That is utter stuff. Children do not need to suffer for "our" freedom. While I agree that, without more evidence, "for the children" is not a reason to take 400 kids into custody, in our civilized society there has to be someone that will advocate for children whose parents refuse to do so. I don't care if the parents in this case do not have a problem with their 14 year old daughter getting married to and having sex with an adult man. It is WRONG; it is ILLEGAL; and I support someone standing up for the children's rights.

You know the type of people in this country who scream that CPS did the right
thing????? Yes, most of them would like to see our children taken away for having
to suffer in a house with firearms present. This is the way they think. If they
don't agree with our lifestyle then our lifestyle should be eradicated.

Nice try. It is a common cry on this board. The government doesn't like pedophiles - gun owners could be next. The government doesn't like terrorists - gun owners could be next. Liberals don't like racists - gun owners could be next. GET OVER IT ALREADY. The vast majority of people in this country do not have a problem with legal gun ownership. Even if CPS's sole goal is to invade this cult and will do so at the drop of a hat, suggesting that going after gun owners is the next step is why the phrase "tin foil hats" gets thrown around. There are plenty of logical reasons to worry about the future of gun ownership because of the problems with illegal gun ownership/use, but sounding the horn every time the government does something you don't like that "gun owners could be next" is nothing but irrational paranoia.

ANYTHING that happens concerning a large group of people will involve children.
Don't let that be a "heart string" they can use to lead you around to do their
bidding.

It's the new "lever" that is used to get their work done.

It's not "for the children" even though they have convinced themselves it is.
It's for what they want and the kids are leverage.

CPS has a lot of power. CPS may at times abuse that power. That simply does not mean that we have to sacrifice children to abuse.

Sad, but true.

Sad? Yes. True? Not a chance.

Michael in NH