Levergun Sights

71fan · Post by **71fan** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:13 am

There aren't enough articles around regarding the sighting of leverguns. I am very hungry for information on this topic, so I thought I'd start a discussion.

I have a lot of leverugns, and therefore a lot of sight combinations. We talk a lot about rear sights, but the fronts tend to get a lot less attention. For the sake of this topic, I'd like to assume most, if not all will agree that some form of rear aperture sight is the best option for most shooters, and that is what is being used by most.

So let's talk about the fronts. As far as I can tell, we have three general types: posts/blades, beads, and globe/tunnel sights. Within the blade/post category I would place the sourdough type blade, the Winchester silver blade, the pinned gold or silver blades (ala Winchester 1895), the various carbine posts, and the XS-type posts with the white line. For beads there is the gold, ivory, and red beads, the Sheard type gold bead, and the varous fiber optics. The globe/tunnels include the Lyman 17 and a miriad of target globes with and without spirit levels. Within this category there is a whole topic unto itself regarding insert types. The Beeches combination sight is hard to categorize, so I guess that can be a forth category.

So what I want to know is, what is YOUR opinion of the best all around front sight for target and silhouette work, that is also suitable/durable for hunting and field use, including horse packing.

I used to be a bead man, but I'm pretty sure I'm not anymore. My best shooting to date has come from my Winchester 1895 that has a fine pinned gold blade. I split the target in half with the top of the blade and get very consisted sight pictures. I am able to shoot close to 1 inch with that rifle and that sight. Beads tend to cover the target causing inconsistent sight pictures at different ranges. Also, I've noticed that especially on my Sheards I get a lot of glare on the beads which complicates things. I've never been able to do any better than about 2-1/2 inches with a front bead-type sight.

Only recently have I entered the globe sight world, and I LOVE them. I put a Lyman 17 on my 1886 with a fine crosshair insert and it's unlike anything I've every seen in terms of sights. I have a Shaver globe on my Uberti 1885, and an MVA Globe on anther 1886. I can get very consistent sight pictures are very long range. Duh...no wonder these sights are used by all the long range guys. However, I wonder how these sights work in hunting conditions, which frequently means low light shooting at dusk, not to mention beating around the bush, or a saddle.

I've muzzleloader hunted a lot, and have always used a bead. Several years ago I had to pass on a very nice wide 3x4 right at 100 yards because I couldn't get the sight picture - it was just too dark. Still legal shooting light, but too dark for MY sights. After that I switched to a fiber optic front, which has been great, but these sights are not good for target work.

I can only speculate, because I have no experience, but I am guessing that the globe sight is not a good low-light sight. It can get pretty dark in that tunnel even in broad daylight. Maybe with some of the post or bead inserts it's OK, but I really don't know - that's why I'm asking!

So, we have the best target sight (the globe) most likely unsuitable for hunting. Then we have the best low light sight - the fiber optic bead, entirely unsuitable for good target work.

What is THE best compromise?

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:08 am

[What is THE best ]

A real sourdough patridge front sight, with the top rear corner cut at a 45-degree angle and having a brass/gold face at that spot (only), with the remainder of the blade blued.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ ... RONT+SIGHT

Post by **Hobie** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:20 am

My pitiful attempts to write down my thoughts. I couldn't stop there so I wrote more drivel...

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:30 am

I'm also a believer in the traditional Sourdough front sight. The square cut blade with the angled brass/gold face does show up well in the forest and under poor light. I've even been able to see the Sourdough in moonlight if conditions were fair. I replace all bead sights with Sourdoughs or square blades whenever possible.

When using bead sights, the flat faced bead seems better than the round faced, as the flat face doesn't shoot away from light sources as badly. I also use the top of the bead for the aiming point. I've heard some say they use the center of the bead, but, as you mentioned, you can't see the target that way. I like to see what I'm shooting at, seems easier to hit it.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:31 am

Simply put, my choice for rear sights is the Lyman or Williams receiver sights.
For the fronts I've used both the old Redfield Sourdough sight and the factory post sights that have come on the Winchester Trappers with good results.

However I've actually got the best shooting accuracy from the narrow solid blade sights as used on my No4 Mk1 Enfields.

I shoot using a Six O'Clock hold, I cannot shoot accurately with part of the sight covering the target. How a shooter using a bead sight can do this is beyond my understanding. Different ways of training I guess.

Out in the field I've found the narrow blade to work just as well for general targets and critters.

So my choice is a narrow solid blade front sight. Skinner makes them and his design fits my requirements.

Joe

iceman · Post by **iceman** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:24 pm

I have just ordered a pair of Skinner front sights for my Mod 94BB 356. they are the solid brass style. I am planning on filing the top corner at 45 degrees like the Marbles sourdough and blacken the rest. Marbles has seen fit to stop producing the sourdough sight. I ordered 2 in case I mess up. they are only $10 . I'll let you know how it works out.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:11 pm

I guess I should be quite at home with iron sights after 45 years of struggling with them, but even to this day, I find myself guessing and often debating on wheather to upgrade or make some kind of modifications to every gun I decide to keep iron sight on. I have never had a Globe sight, but I have messed with about everything else, more of less.

One of the most precise and accurate iron sighting systems I have ever had on a gun, is on my Winchester 94/22mag. On it I put a Williams receiver sight with a Williams Ghost ring aperature and a Williams Taller Bead front sight with a tiny gold bead on it. This seems to work about as good as anything I have ever tried. I believe that bead is round and not flat, but it doesn't seem to create a change of impact, due to differences in the sun's location, that I can preceive in actual shooting.

However, receiver sights with post front sights have caused me difficulties at times. I know the post is supposed to be the best, but my eye does not always center the top of post in the middle of the apperature, It's not automatic for me, as many have written, regarding receiver sights. I have to make myself think to put the top of the post in the middle of the hole. I think I tend to center the bead front sight on a resonably tall post with more consistancy, espacally when shooting fast. Also on some recevier sights the hole doesn't look round to me, this has given me fits at times.

Sometimes I prefer open Iron sights to receiver sights, but the combination has to be correct. I usually prefer a bead front and a U shape in the back, but even then you will see several variations and relationships between the size of the bead and the size of the U. If it is not correct, then everthing gets more difficult. Unfortunately, many if not most open iron sights if any that come on rifles today are next to junk, because the manufactures usually assume that everyone will put a scope on their gun anyway, so they give us a cheap often flimsey rear sight, that doesn't even come close to the quality and useability of the sights commonaly found on guns made 75 years ago, when most people didnot use a scope.

I don't know if I care much for the new breed of firesights often seen these days, most are fragil and don't work very good for precision shooting in good light, but I guess some might be better in real low light siduations. The Williams maybe the best, I have seen.

leverhunter · Post by **leverhunter** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:23 am

iceman- where did you order the sights from? I am having a heck of a time finding somewhere I can order from in Canada. Also, having no gunsmith per se in my area means doing the work myself so D&T add-on sights are a no go.
Wanted to put a Williams receiver sight on my Win 94 AE 44 mag but........ended up mounting a Leupold 3-7x33 Rifleman scope. (Was D&T when I bought it) Being a small scope it looks very good actually. Would like to put Williams or similar on my Win 94 A/E 30/30 though. Not sure what my options are for after market sights that can be installed w/o D&T. My preference is open sights even on my bolt guns.
Hope I didn't hijack this too much.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:33 am

My favorite front sight is a globe w/post, such as this one on my custom Winchester 94:

Side view:

This sight started out as a Shiloh Sharps globe w/the post & ball. I filed off the top half of the ball leaving a slim post with a "T" at the top. With the tang rear sight, I have almost 30" of sight radius. While some dislike the globe front sight as they feel it doesn't all enough light in. However, I have not had any trouble in most lighting conditions outside of the 1st or last few minutes of legal hunting light. Obviously, if the day is overcast this will extend the time that light is difficult.

Two of my project rifles (Winch 94s) already have the sights purchased, one has a Lyman #2, the other has one from Jeff's Outfitters. Both will have Lyman #17As for front sights. The other project rifle has not had a barrel selected yet.

The three 94s that are slated to be carbines will likely carry a semi- or full-buckhorn rear sight, like this:

While all three will likely have this standard 1894 styled post front sight:

gunsbrad · Post by **gunsbrad** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:15 am

This is a very interesting post. I just bought a Marlin 1895 Cowboy to be used as my primary deer rifle here in the mountains of southwest Virginia. I was about to order a Williams Foolproof, and sourdough front sight. I had not heard Marbles quit producing these. Are they still available? Does anyone know how high of a sight to order if they are available? TIA

Brad

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:00 am

Brownell's is still carrying them, in three heights, on their website as I posted above - just get one the same height (or a tad taller) as the sight on your rifle now.
Most Marlin's don't require a front sight change when side peeped.
If you have to use the new model FP that mounts atop the receiver ILO the side, then you'll need a front that's about 1/10" taller - but shooting it's the proof of the puddin'.

Poohgyrr · Post by **Poohgyrr** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:38 pm

Thanks for all the posts. They are appreciated....

iceman · Post by **iceman** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:19 pm

leverhunter. S.I.R. in Winterpeg carries williams peeps. There is a supplier of Williams in Edmonton, (Western Gun supplies I think but not sure of the name) The Skinner sight I ordered directly from Skinner, google is your friend. Williams used to ship to Canada but no longer.

71fan · Post by **71fan** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:54 pm

This is some very good info. Thank you for all your posts gentlemen.

What is the correct name for the blade sights that were on the old 1893 Marlins? They are the large nickel silver blades pinched into the dovetail base. I'd like to get my hands on one of those and try it out.

Does anyone know if/where reproductions are available?

leverhunter · Post by **leverhunter** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:10 pm

iceman wrote:leverhunter. S.I.R. in Winterpeg carries williams peeps. There is a supplier of Williams in Edmonton, (Western Gun supplies I think but not sure of the name) The Skinner sight I ordered directly from Skinner, google is your friend. Williams used to ship to Canada but no longer.

Thanks, I'll check those out. Place in Edmonton is Western Gun Parts. I forgot about SIR. I'll look for Skinner's website.
Thanks again.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:23 pm

Well, here on ironsights.com ..............................

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:13 am

leverhunter - XS Express makes a receiver peep that stradles the bolt on your 94AE, mounting in the rear scope mount holes already on the receiver rails.

It comes as a ghost ring, but can be ordered set up for a threaded eyepiece/eyecup.

http://www.xssights.com/store/rifle.html

TNBigBore · Post by **TNBigBore** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:15 am

I too like the post type front sights for most shooting applications, but I do favor the firesights or ivory bead front sight for my Marlin 1894 44 Mag. The bead is easier to see in low light in the woods and I just put the bead where I want the bullet to go. Since the rifle is really a 100yd rifle anyway, I dont need to use a 6 oclock hold. Even at 100 yds the 1/16" bead does not completely cover the vitals of an average sized deer.

OJ · Post by OJ » Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:10 am

Our preferences differ which I think is good. Personally, I like the Williams FP apertures but I leave the aperture out to get a ghost ring sight - faster on target but just as accurate. Got the idea from Jeff Cooper's writing.

On my Winchester 95 -

And I like the XS post front sights with the white stripe - easier to see in low light.

On My Winchester 95 -

And Winchester 94 -

Works for mw -

k8bor · Post by **k8bor** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:41 pm

I use Skinner front blades (.050") and full buckhorn rears. I use the buckhorns like aperature sights. My old eyes do pretty well with these, and allow me to stay in about 4" at 100 yards.

Mr. Skinner sends the fronts to me made .600" from bottom of dovetail to the top and I regulate them with a file. If I want to shoot real fine, I do what the gentleman above said by filing the sides at 45's once I have the elevation right. My levers look right fine with this combo on them too. I never blacken the rest of the front sights either, just leave them brass.

de k8bor

dave

Vic303 · Post by **Vic303** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:15 pm

What do y'all think of a red dot for a Marlin 1894c .357 ? I'm thinking either a JPoint, or an older Aimpoint, or maybe TruGlo 2x red dot. Done right, it should be possible to co-witness the irons with the red dot. The red dot will be exceedingly fast on target too. Since this isn't a long-range rifle, I think it would be a good choice.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:22 pm

"...They are the large nickel silver blades pinched into the dovetail base. I'd like to get my hands on one of those and try it out. "

Try Dixie Gun works. They have a number of similar blade type front sights. Winchester used them as well, and they were found on many early muzzle loaders. I worked one of their steel base models down to make the base less chunky, made it look better.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:00 pm

Old Savage wrote:Well, here on ironsights.com ..............................

I have my own website?

I had Mr. Skinner cut me a proper thin front sight for my 92 to use with FP & Merit.

WyrTwister · Post by **WyrTwister** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:31 pm

71fan wrote:There aren't enough articles around regarding the sighting of leverguns. I am very hungry for information on this topic, so I thought I'd start a discussion.

I have a lot of leverugns, and therefore a lot of sight combinations. We talk a lot about rear sights, but the fronts tend to get a lot less attention. For the sake of this topic, I'd like to assume most, if not all will agree that some form of rear aperture sight is the best option for most shooters, and that is what is being used by most.

So let's talk about the fronts. As far as I can tell, we have three general types: posts/blades, beads, and globe/tunnel sights. Within the blade/post category I would place the sourdough type blade, the Winchester silver blade, the pinned gold or silver blades (ala Winchester 1895), the various carbine posts, and the XS-type posts with the white line. For beads there is the gold, ivory, and red beads, the Sheard type gold bead, and the varous fiber optics. The globe/tunnels include the Lyman 17 and a miriad of target globes with and without spirit levels. Within this category there is a whole topic unto itself regarding insert types. The Beeches combination sight is hard to categorize, so I guess that can be a forth category.

So what I want to know is, what is YOUR opinion of the best all around front sight for target and silhouette work, that is also suitable/durable for hunting and field use, including horse packing.

I used to be a bead man, but I'm pretty sure I'm not anymore. My best shooting to date has come from my Winchester 1895 that has a fine pinned gold blade. I split the target in half with the top of the blade and get very consisted sight pictures. I am able to shoot close to 1 inch with that rifle and that sight. Beads tend to cover the target causing inconsistent sight pictures at different ranges. Also, I've noticed that especially on my Sheards I get a lot of glare on the beads which complicates things. I've never been able to do any better than about 2-1/2 inches with a front bead-type sight.

Only recently have I entered the globe sight world, and I LOVE them. I put a Lyman 17 on my 1886 with a fine crosshair insert and it's unlike anything I've every seen in terms of sights. I have a Shaver globe on my Uberti 1885, and an MVA Globe on anther 1886. I can get very consistent sight pictures are very long range. Duh...no wonder these sights are used by all the long range guys. However, I wonder how these sights work in hunting conditions, which frequently means low light shooting at dusk, not to mention beating around the bush, or a saddle.

I've muzzleloader hunted a lot, and have always used a bead. Several years ago I had to pass on a very nice wide 3x4 right at 100 yards because I couldn't get the sight picture - it was just too dark. Still legal shooting light, but too dark for MY sights. After that I switched to a fiber optic front, which has been great, but these sights are not good for target work.

I can only speculate, because I have no experience, but I am guessing that the globe sight is not a good low-light sight. It can get pretty dark in that tunnel even in broad daylight. Maybe with some of the post or bead inserts it's OK, but I really don't know - that's why I'm asking!

So, we have the best target sight (the globe) most likely unsuitable for hunting. Then we have the best low light sight - the fiber optic bead, entirely unsuitable for good target work.

What is THE best compromise?

The M1 Garand has about the best metalic sights I have used . Rear peep and front blade w/ flat top .

Also the A2 sights on the AR-15 / M-16 .

I have a 6.5 Swede target bolt gun with rear peeep and a globe front sigh ( hollow circle ) . I think a blade would be more accurate .

I just ordered a Williams peep sight for a new Marlin .45-70 . May end up replacing the brass bead front sight w/ a flat top blade .

If that does not work with my old eyes , may have to throw in the towell & scope it .

God bless
Wyr

Levergun Sights

Levergun Sights

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