Funny conversation with a buddy about his new rifle

[Dave]

A friend of mine stopped by tonight and showed me his new AR15 in 300 Whipser. The round is a 223 case necked up to 30 cal and is one funny looking cartridge. I know another guy who has one and he says it is a deer killer. OK.
My buddy was showing me all the good things about his gun and telling me how through hard shopping and building the lower himself he had put the gun together for about $750 dollars. He needs a riser and is going to put a quality scope on it which will bring him up to about $1000 and back up iron sights so lets say $1200.

Here's the funny part:

He said "When I'm done you know what I will have? It will be the equivalent of a 30-30!"

I thought I can go to the pawn shop and buy a Marlin 336 in 30-30 for $200, but I didn't say it

[Ysabel Kid]

Dave -

Friends often maintain their friendship by the things they don't say!

[Comal Forge]

I had the same thoughts after reading the article on the .300 Whisper in the latest American Rifleman and wondering what it could do that the 30-30 or 300 Savage couldn't.

[Andrew]

I like the idea of an auto loading 30-30.

I don't get the AR platform from the cost angle. I don't need a gun that's THAT effective/accurate. Great guns, just not for me.

[71fan]

I don't get the AR platform from the cost angle. I don't need a gun that's THAT effective/accurate. Great guns, just not for me.

I'm with you, but I'd bet there are a bunch of AR guys saying the same about leverguns.

To each his own, which is what make the shooting sports so great.

[Yance]

The Whisper "concept" is based on heavy,200-220 gr 30 cal bullets and uses necked up .221 Fireball cases.

This gives a COAL that will feed and function in standard AR-15, M-16 platforms.

The Whisper was originally intended to be a sub-sonic round for use in supressed rifles.

You can also duplicate the good ol' .30-30 in a 10" barreled Contender .30 Herrett but you gotta make that one shot count.

[Jaguarundi]

I like the idea of an auto loading 30-30.

I don't get the AR platform from the cost angle. I don't need a gun that's THAT effective/accurate. Great guns, just not for me.

Try the Remington Model 8 in 30 Remington .or something more recent vintage like AK-47 or variant(Valmet etc)chambered in 7.62x39mm.Heck a SKS will do. Nice thing about a Kalashnikov is it will cycle everything without modification to the operating system including subsonic ammunition. Just amazes me how someone reinvented the wheel.But this happens allot in the world of firearms. But if you really want the AR blackrifle look then one that would shoot 7.62x39mm would have been a more practical choice.

[BenT]

My coworker has one in 6.8 spc. It's kills deer. It's a .277 bullet on a shortened 30 rem case. Basically 30-30 ballistics. A good choice for deer hunting. Just not for me. Seems that if you wanted a 30 cal you could neck this case back up to it.

[Hobie]

Yance is right, the big advantage (if you think it is an advantage for your application) is the ability to load the .300 Whisper to be effective when suppressed with bullets with a huge SD or to load it with lighter bullets with much higher velocity and all on a common case head that functions through the particular weapons system without major modifications. If you don't then the .30-30 as commonly produced is no more or less effective.

As to cost... Well, I've got at least one very plain levergun that cost me that just so I could shoot a 130 year old design with an obsolete cartridge just like the North West Mounted Police... To each his own. If it were all about money, money is all there would be.

[Pete44ru]

I had my fill of AR's & AK's, etc, during my service in the -60's, Thank you.

I'll support your right to buy, use & keep them - but give me blued steel & walnut, and I'll be a happy camper.

BTW - Wasn't the old Standard pump/auto rifle essentially a semi-auto .30-30, when chambered for the .30 Remington (rimless) ?

[wm]

My coworker has one in 6.8 spc. It's kills deer. It's a .277 bullet on a shortened 30 rem case. Basically 30-30 ballistics. A good choice for deer hunting. Just not for me. Seems that if you wanted a 30 cal you could neck this case back up to it.

As I said when the 6.8 SPC cartridge first surfaced in the press.....they owe Ken Waters a royalty check for ripping off the 7-30Waters.

And the 7-30Waters was intended to duplicate the ballistics of the 7X57mm cartridge that first came into being in 1893.

Are we forever reinventing the wheel?

Wm

[Rusty]

Yes, but the reinvented wheel makes someone else more money.

Love may make the world go 'round, but money keeps the bearings greased.

[Yance]

Us Olde Fartes tend to forget that the Rambo wannabes and Mall Ninjas know ONLY what the slick 4 color glossies tell them, and the PAID staff is only going to sing the praises of whatever the newest thing from the major players happens to be sent to them this month.

Amazing that the Ol' thutty-thutty isn't good enough to kill deer, but the .300 Whisper and 6.8 SPC will drop 'em like a hammer. (according to what they've READ)

Me, I'm off to burn some charcoal in my 74 Sharps .45-70. I can get about the same "whump" from my .45 Colt Rossi with my heaviest loads, but it's not NEAR as much FUN!!!!

Hobie; How was lunch with Ty and Nancy?

Still waiting to hear from Chaparral about my buddy's '76.

[AJMD429]

I thought the same kind of thing recently about the .500 S&W Magnum.

I saw an H&R breakopen in that chambering, and thought "Gee that's kind of cool - what a thumper!" but since I don't see any need for ME to have a handgun in that round (I don't live in 'bear country' and wouldn't use a handgun if I wanted to shoot something more than 25 yards away with a big heavy bullet), I got to thinking...

( =danger = )

...what exactly can the .500 S&W do that a .45-70 can't do, except

a) fit in a shorter action (a non-issue since no short repeaters currently exist for the round, and there's always the .50 Beowulf).

b) no 'old guns' out there to accidentally put a 'hot' round in and blow up (hopefully a non-issue, since my only .45-70's are an 1895 Marlin and a Thompson Center Encore).

So, despite the 'fun-factor' of buying into a new cartridge, I just couldn't see it. So I got to thinking again...

( =danger = )

...when you get right down to it, there are only 'bore sizes' and 'bullet weights' and 'velocities' - so for each bore size, you have a maximum practical case size for the type gun action you want to use, and THAT is going to meet all your needs. If you want extra slow velocities most often, you might get there more efficiently (wasting less powder) by using a smaller case size.

If you look at the available calibers, from a truly practical/hunting standpoint, you don't need every caliber; maybe just one each in the range of 5mm to .22, 6mm to .25, 7mm to .30, 9mm to .40, and .44 to .50 surely would cover it ALL. Even then, 3 of those 5 gives you a huge ballistic selection. Factor in 'action type' or handgun/rifle considerations, and you could really have 5 or 6 cartridges cover everything. (i.e. .22LR, .22-250, .32-20, .308, .44 Mag, .45-70)

And . . . they could be old or new, short or fat, rebated or rimmed, and it really doesn't matter downrange! If you don't believe ME, just ask the deer, the bears, and the prarie dogs.

[Texican]

I don't get the AR platform from the cost angle.

It has nothing to do with cost. The AR platform is the 'Mr. Potato Head of Firearms". Start with a $100 receiver, then add parts, change parts, take it all apart and put it back together again a different way.

Like anything from guns to model trains to collecting fishing lures; sure you start off small with just a few pieces and then the hobby grows and within a few years you've had to add another floor to your house because your shop, your garage and your hobby room are all full.

Like I said: cost doesn't factor into it...

[t.r.]

I don't believe a .223 case necked to 30 caliber can possibly replicate the ballistics of 170 grain 30-30 cartridge. Where is the evidence?

TR

[Dave]

To each his own. If it were all about money, money is all there would be.

You are right of course. That's why Baskin Robbins has so many flavors. My buddy is having fun building/tweaking the rifle and doing load development, etc just like a gun crank is supposed to. It just tickled me that his ultramodern, modular, rifle will replicate a cartridge from 1895 or so and he is so happy about it.

[Griff]

I guess the difference is similar to a trip to a hunting lease a couple years ago. Everybody was discussing what rifle/load they were using the following day, except me, (my custom Win 94 & Federal 150s). One fellar was showin' off his new, custom, $8K, Lazeroni in some proprietary cartridge and bragging what a deer slayer it was. He said, "too bad Griff's .30-30 can't cut the mustard on these So. TX deer."

I skinned and quartered 3 deer the next day, an 8 point taken @~235 yards, in the morning and 2 does @ 40 and 110 yards that afternoon.

Let me review: "... Griff's .30-30 {what} can't cut the mustard on these So. TX deer." score =s 3; "Mr. Lazeroni", score =s 0. Now in all fairness the him, he'd said he wasn't going to shoot anything less than a "super 10-pointer or a 12. And, he just didn't see one. Nor did I shoot 3 deer that day to try and prove something; I did just what I planned on, filled my meat quota, and spent the next couple days huntin' havelina with my .45 Colt leverguns!

Now, "Mr. Lazeroni" was awful quiet that nite, and packed up and went home the next morning. Nay, I didn't even rib him a all. But a couple of the guys that knew 'im better sure did! In fact, he was conspicuously absent on my next two trips down there!

Now, if he'd of been a "friend", instead of just a deer camp acquaintance, I'd have been unmerciful! 'Cause if your friends can't tell ya when you're bein' a "bonehead", they ain't bein' "your friend."

While my choice wasn't to his liking, nor was his mine, I needn't say anything about his choice, but... his braggin', that was a different matter!

[Retro]

The 300 Whisper was originally designed to have the same COL as a 223, but with a heavy bullet, subsonic, out of an AR-15 (as noted by others earlier in this thread).

The silhouetters missed the point completely, and loaded the thing with 100 and 150 grainers at 30-30 velocities -- but since it works, and works well, for silhouetters, you can't call them too crazy (and yes, I have a T/C in 300 whisper, and yes, I shoot silhouettes :-)

Similarly, but less successfully, the 357 Maximum was built for silhouettes. 180 or 200 grains travelling at about the same speed as the 158 grainers do from a 357 magnum. Works extremely well on rams. But then some people tried using 125 grain bullets. With about twice the powder a 357 magnum uses :-) Resulted in terrible flame erosion. So now "everyone" will tell you the 357 Maximum's a terrible round, flame cutting, you know.

Oh yes, and Spanish pistols are horrible, soft steel, you know...

[Rimfire McNutjob]

The AR platform is the "Mr. Potato Head of Firearms".

I have GOT to write that down.

[Andrew]

Texican, you are absolutely right. I like stuff that mixes and matches too, especially when all you need are a few tools.

Hobie, true enough. But it's not all about money, just this is about money. I work hard for my bacon, and will spend it with discernment.

Don't get me wrong here, if I were given an AR-15 I would shoot it untill the cows came home and love every minute.

No $$$ + No need = No thank you.

[Hobie]

Hobie; How was lunch with Ty and Nancy?

Still waiting to hear from Chaparral about my buddy's '76.

Lunch was wonderful. As you know, they are great people and good conversationalists. Learned how you met Ty for instance...

I'd like to hear about Chaparral when it happens. Got a Chaparral myself.

[AJMD429]

I don't believe a .223 case necked to 30 caliber can possibly replicate the ballistics of 170 grain 30-30 cartridge. Where is the evidence?

TR

Everything I see in the load manuals shows about 300 fps slower for the Whisper than the good old Thutty-thutty. The case holds something like 25 grains of water vs. 44, or something along that line. Granted, in 'modern, high strength firearms' the smaller case might be pushable, but . . . 'why?'

If you look at the .30-30, it will spit 170 gr. at 1600-2400 fps with published loads.

If you want a semiautomatic, reliable 'military' gun, there are these:

'300 Whisper' gives 170 gr. about 1700-1900 fps - slower but close.

Old reliable '.308 Win' gives 170 gr. 2300-2900, so presuming you can find a light load functioning in your rifle, it can do the job, with some extra power to spare.

Maybe you want less noise and recoil, but still a proven gun/cartridge; then look at the 7.62x39 - 170 gr. at 2000-2200 fps. THAT'S right in the middle of the .30-30 ballistics. Been around for 50 years, and we know it works, and plenty of ammo out there.

I'm sure the purists will insist that the .300 Whisper will shoot 'flatter' since the 170 grain bullets in .308 are surely higher ballistic coefficient than those HUGE .312's the 7.62x39 uses. Sure. Maybe one in ten thousand shooters is good enough at 'sniping' to take advantage of that, so if someone is that good, I'M not going to tell them their 'Whisper' is silly.

I'd rather have an 'AR' gun in 7.62x39 than .300 Whisper though.



, and our old military/semiauto buddy the .308 will spit them at 2300-2900, and the 7.62x39 will do so at 2000-2200, Whisper is 1700-1900

[Jaguarundi]

Griff luv your story !AJMD429 +1 agreement with your post.

[Pete44ru]

[Griff's ".30-30 {what} can't cut the mustard on these So. TX deer." score =s 3; "Mr. Lazeroni", score =s 0.]

Hey Griff - That's called being "The Perfect Squelch".