Mob control, self protection, riot/looters etc

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:49 pm

So we have in the news rioting in Mo, ISIS saying they are coming after us, violence in the streets in major cities. Is there scenarios you have considered the growing uncertainty in the world and how it might affect you and your family? I was considering my CCW in light of the news and I am finding it woefully lacking should a riot break out over a shooting, a food shortage, a power outage, storm aftermath, terrorist attack or any other such event. I'm considering keeping the 642 as a CCW but having something MORE, MAS, available close by in my vehicle. So my question is,

High capacity handgun or carbine, or shotgun? What do you or would you choose? Pistol caliber carbine? 5.56 platform? What features do you consider important on such a weapon? Open sights? Red dot? Collapsible stock? Single point sling? Scope?

Personally I'm reconsidering my position on a 5.56 platform and considering a gas piston Sig 5.56 with collapsable stock, 30 round magpul Mags, open flip up/down sights and a red dot sight. Sorry no levergun or shotgun. Has to be a mag fed weapon due to legal restrictions, and offer precise shooting to a reasonable distance. Looking at some pistol to carbine conversion units also.

Let me hear your thoughts.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:40 pm

rjohns94 wrote:
High capacity handgun or carbine, or shotgun? What do you or would you choose? Pistol caliber carbine? 5.56 platform? .

Any , or all of these

The guns i have standing by ready to repel boarders are a couple of AR-15's , a couple of 18" barrelled full tube magazine defense type shotguns (Rem 870's) - and a brace of Glocks

Was strongly considering ordering a Colt 9mm carbine through my FFL , mostly because they are fun though ------
-- but as i espoused in an earlier thread , i bought a SAA instead and knocked out my firearms budget for a while

But i dont see doing anything with a 9mm that a 5.56 can't do --Specops and swat type people seem to be ditching the MP-5's and AR 9mm's left and right in favor of heavy frangible bullets for a 5.56 anymore

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:43 pm

Although a briefcase with a folding-stock Uzi would look cool, I'd rather have my 14-shot 45 ACP (Para Ordnance P-14) and a couple extra magazines - more capacity in a smaller package, always on hand vs. "in the car somewhere", 45 beats 9mm, and I'll bet I could hit no more accurately with the Uzi, not that I'm a crack pistol shot.

A Mini-14 or AR-15 is nice, and if there were many bad-guys coming at me simultaneously would be my third choice after a) not being there, and b) a belt-fed 308 and/or flame-thrower. Those I could hit with more accurately than my 45, but neither is something I'd want to tote everywhere.

A 'disposable' (not caring so much if it is stolen from a parked car or unattended duffel as a high-end AR-15) gun like an AK-47 would be an option, but these days, none of the 'EBR' type guns is all that easy to replace, and consequences of having one stolen can come back to bite the original owner.

So - 'out and about' I'd stick with my Para Ordnance, perhaps with a few more extra magazines. For 'in the home' I certainly like the carbine-sized AR/AK/Mini-14 options, and perhaps a rifle-sized Garand or AR-10 would be icing on the cake.

My P-14 is a much-older and not 'Tactical' one, but appears to function like this one:

http://para-usa.com/2013/firearms/tacti ... ps1445.php

Rock Island also makes the double-stack 1911, and they are nice; less expensive but a bit heavier.

https://us.armscor.com/products/tac-2011-hi-cap-45acp

And no - the guns are not different in size - but their website photos sure are...!

Really, I think that in most "Get me back home safely" scenarios, the limiting factor could well be how many rounds of ammunition you have at hand, and not what particular firearm you are shooting them from. I'd feel better with a 500-round bulk-pack of 45 ACP and a good 1911 than an AR-15 and three 30-round magazines if I had to walk 10-20 miles through bad places.

shooter · Post by **shooter** » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:24 pm

I'd take an AR 15 carbine, collapsable stock, flip up rear sight and a red dot. I wouldn't want any optics with magnification in a riot type scenario, unless it had a quick detach mount I could remove in a hurry. Scopes get damaged/fail. So do red dots, but you can still use the iron sights in tandem with a red dot. Not true on a lot of the magnified tactical scopes. Plus I think I would have a tendency to seriously limit my field of view using something with much magnification.

My second choice would be a lever action in .45 Colt, but a 'tactical' platform is much preferable to me in a riot scenario. Something like an AR-15 would give much higher ammo capacity and the ability for faster reloads. I should carry my AR in the truck with me at all times, but I don't. These recent events have made me rethink that practice, however.

wm · Post by wm » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:44 pm

I have been using a Marlin 336 30/30 as you described. My reasons are;
A) I shoot it well
B) I trust it & the cartridge
C) I already own it and the rifle you have is better in a fight then the one you have in lay away
D) I shoot it well

It ain't sexy but it is me.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:13 pm

For "mob control, self protection, riot/looters ect."
A couple of hand grenades come to mind.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:17 pm

"So - 'out and about' I'd stick with my Para Ordnance, perhaps with a few more extra magazines. For 'in the home' I certainly like the carbine-sized AR/AK/Mini-14 options, and perhaps a rifle-sized Garand or AR-10 would be icing on the cake."

I have a garand at home and it is my icing on the cake.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:22 pm

casastahle wrote:For "mob control, self protection, riot/looters ect."
A couple of hand grenades come to mind.

I actually was thinking of an old adage that there is no problem that the right amount of explosives can't fix.

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:44 pm

Since I like pictures--

Keltec Su16c (5.56)

Keltec PLR16 (5.56)

Extar 556 (5.56)

Sub2000 (9mm)

My katana (I'm kinda not joking)

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:29 pm

I have a Russian SKS in the trunk of my car with 200 rounds on strippers in a Chicom chest rig. After a big storm which left my city without power for weeks, I saw my first gas riot at a store that had power. They could pump gas and it was out of control. After that I decided I would never leave home without a long gun again.

The AR is the way to go and right now they are cheaper than they have been in a long time. I see new Colts for $800 and got an email offering new Bushmasters for $650. The PSA guns are supposed to be good and are cheap.

In a bad, bad situation like the Katrina aftermath you need a gun but you really need food, water, gas, and medicine. Most people never fired one shot during Katrina but they sure needed a lot of drinking water.

I was in St Louis for a week not long ago just south of Ferguson. I had an AR and 5 mags in my trunk and I can't remember what pistol I had. Probably an LC9. Honestly, I felt kind of foolish taking the rifle. Now I don't.

The SKS is a throwaway gun that stays in the trunk when everything is fine. If things started getting sideways, I would go with an AR. Whatever you have you need a way to carry your mags. A chest rig that holds 4 mags like a Mayflower or Swamp Fox is nice to have.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:32 pm

.

A quality (not an import) 8-shot pump-action shotgun.

.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:37 pm

Like Doc, I favor the Para Ordnance P-14 in .45 ACP. Like Panzercat, I also like a katana (mine is a Cold Steel warrior-series). Both would be to get to a rifle if the bad times.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:44 pm

shooter wrote:I'd take an AR 15 carbine, collapsable stock, flip up rear sight and a red dot. I wouldn't want any optics with magnification in a riot type scenario, unless it had a quick detach mount I could remove in a hurry. Scopes get damaged/fail. So do red dots, but you can still use the iron sights in tandem with a red dot.

I have a scope on my 'primary' AR, but got a set of the 45-degree 'auxiliary battlesights' that allow you to simply tilt your firearm counter-clockwise a bit, and you're ready to keep shooting. I can tell you the ones I got are well-made, and have positive adjustments just like the regular sights, but they are NOT easy to sight-in, until you give-in and bench-shoot the gun at the 45 degree angle (gun shoots accurately regardless of angle, but adjustments just don't make sense unless you're holding it that way).

Anyway, they are not bulky, don't require a scope to be removed, and don't have a 'flip-up' mechanism to break.

I'll post a picture if I get a chance.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:12 pm

second vote for the keltec sub2K

it is handier than an ar, unless you have a 14" barrel on it. it's about the shortest carbine around. it is accurate, it is reliable, and it is more than adequate, judging from this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wXFf34bB34

it's long but the nitty gritty happens from about 12min in.

32 round mags are 15 bucks

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/2-MGPMBER-A4

so are the 20 rounders

the beretta grip is versatile because, according to the internet, you can get a gadget that allows you to swap in s&w mags if you have those. otherwise you can get the glock version, but only use glock mags in it.

there are tricked out versions and accessories galore for those who can't leave well enough alone....

hickok 45 blasts his gongs and sillouhets with the smith .40 model.

I think the 9mm is very good, it will handle +p loads, but if you already feed a 40 then that model would be a complement.

shooter · Post by **shooter** » Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:41 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
shooter wrote:I'd take an AR 15 carbine, collapsable stock, flip up rear sight and a red dot. I wouldn't want any optics with magnification in a riot type scenario, unless it had a quick detach mount I could remove in a hurry. Scopes get damaged/fail. So do red dots, but you can still use the iron sights in tandem with a red dot.
I have a scope on my 'primary' AR, but got a set of the 45-degree 'auxiliary battlesights' that allow you to simply tilt your firearm counter-clockwise a bit, and you're ready to keep shooting. I can tell you the ones I got are well-made, and have positive adjustments just like the regular sights, but they are NOT easy to sight-in, until you give-in and bench-shoot the gun at the 45 degree angle (gun shoots accurately regardless of angle, but adjustments just don't make sense unless you're holding it that way).

Anyway, they are not bulky, don't require a scope to be removed, and don't have a 'flip-up' mechanism to break.

I'll post a picture if I get a chance.

I've seen them, and if they were good quality I wouldn't mind them, but I still think I would prefer just a set of iron sights and something like a Trijicon red dot. I don't like the Eotechs because for me they are too heavy/bulky. BUT.....If I had a good set of the type of sights you are talking about, a low power ACOG scope might not be too bad

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:23 pm

Only problem with keltec products is that finding them is like finding unicorn droppings, though I will give them credit-- their SU16 a/b/ca series seems to be popping up more at reasonable prices. The sub2k is still laughably rare and barely affordable, especially in 9mm. You can find a PLR without too much heart ache, but that Extar holds the best price point of the lot-- $450ish for an AR pistol without the buffer nonsense. It's all polymer, but so is the glock /shrug. One reviewer has over 1k rounds through it without a malfunction or cleaning. At under 3lbs unloaded, I've been seriously considering one myself. It'd be a great trunk gun and not so expensive that you'd cry if you lost it.

Still, I'm kinda in between on my guns at the moment. Did some house cleaning so that was more of a wish list than anything else.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:33 pm

Grizz wrote:second vote for the keltec sub2K

third vote here.
.........................................................................

there are tricked out versions and accessories galore for those who can't leave well enough alone....

I kinda resemble that

This one's in 40 cal glock mags because my everyday carry is an old Glock M22 LEO trade in. Folded it fits in a laptop bag. With the red dot and 850 lumen flashlight it will do 6" at night with cheap ball ammo

stew71 · Post by **stew71** » Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:13 am

I'm not worried about ISIS or ISIL or whatever Obama is calling them this week starting anything locally. I honestly don't see them stirring anything up here. It sounds more like the usual al-Jazzera blowhard propaganda...

I plan to go about my business as usual. Had my CCW interview this week with the Sacramento County Sheriff's office and now I'm just waiting to hear back on whether its approved or not. Right now, we're seeing around a 90-something percent approval rate so my chances are pretty good. I'll have a Kahr P380 and a Ruger SR9c ready to go.

We keep a 1911 and a 20ga shotgun handy and we feel just fine. Of course, we can always go to the M1A or the Garand, or any of my AR's if the fecal matter hits spinning blades.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:13 am

I keep a lot of ready to go firepower at the house. I live in an old fanny burp park, and if the Natives go beserk, an old fanny burp park would be easy pickings (or so they think). I do believe my 870 Tactical with a full mag, and about 24 more shells in billfold holders on the sling will do nicely. The Glock 30 is ready to go, and I have two more regular, and two HiCap mags ready to go with it. A 1911 and three mags by the bed, a J-Frame .38 by the front door with two speed loaders, and my LCP with two extra mags in my vest pocket.....I'm clearly what the liberal media would call a mentally diseased PTSD nut job. Now, once I unlock a couple safes.....

Oops, forgot that I have a S&W 625 with five moon clips handy and close by. I might die, but I'll be in a pile of smoking brass and bleeding bodies

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:18 am

AR-15 would be my first choice if practical. I often have this close:

On the other hand, there is a much more convenient way to have a carbine if it needs to be discreet:

It will fit in a small bag, backpack, or briefcase, can mount an optic, and gives the stability of a carbine. It does not need any assembly, just unfolding the stock (or stabilizer tube).

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:24 am

stew71 wrote:I'm not worried about ISIS or ISIL or whatever Obama is calling them this week starting anything locally.

Actually, it is a good possibility. We had two teachers in a very small bush village that flew into Anchorage with a list of people to kill, that had been supplied by muslim terrorists. There are really serious guys out there who are looking for targets, there are freelancers who want to die for Allah who might do anything, and there are converts like those teachers, who want to do their part.

I have reason to be cautious, personally, not because of the professional guys so much as the kid who wants to play jihadi and finds my info on some arabic website.

firefuzz · Post by **firefuzz** » Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:55 am

Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:
Grizz wrote:second vote for the keltec sub2K

third vote here.
.........................................................................

there are tricked out versions and accessories galore for those who can't leave well enough alone....

I kinda resemble that
This one's in 40 cal glock mags because my everyday carry is an old Glock M22 LEO trade in. Folded it fits in a laptop bag. With the red dot and 850 lumen flashlight it will do 6" at night with cheap ball ammo

Another vote for the KelTec Sub 2000. Available in 9mm or .40 S&W, and if you shoot a Glock reliable hi-cap mags are available. Plenty accurate out to at least 100yds. My 9mm is my "get home gun" when we're traveling. The folded gun and 6 33rd mags in a pouch go in the bottom of the suit case every trip, I don't fly anymore. I carry a G17C and wifey carries a G19 so all the mags will fit the Sub-2000.

Rob

firefuzz · Post by **firefuzz** » Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:44 am

rjohns94 wrote: So my question is,

High capacity handgun or carbine, or shotgun? What do you or would you choose? Pistol caliber carbine? 5.56 platform? What features do you consider important on such a weapon? Open sights? Red dot? Collapsible stock? Single point sling? Scope?

Sorry no levergun or shotgun. Has to be a mag fed weapon due to legal restrictions, and offer precise shooting to a reasonable distance.

Let me hear your thoughts.(edited)

rjohns94, I'm curious about the no shotgun. I wouldn't dream of building a home defense tool kit without at least one dependable repeating shotgun.

As far as your original question, your "home defense tool kit" need at least one of each, probably more of at least two of them. I'm a big fan of shotguns in a home defense roll, especially in the yard, especially at night.

For pistols I push Glocks because I know they're reliable but there are many other fine guns so pick what suits you.

As far as pistol cartridge carbines, those would be my last choice and last tool put in the box. I'd stick to the AR platform because of cost and availability as well as I have no problems with an AR that I maintain being reliable. But again, there are a lot of choices out there, pick what you like that's proven dependable.

As far as shotguns go I'm pretty picky. If it doesn't say Remington, Mossberg, Browning or Benelli on it I'm not going to recommend it to anyone, and only certain models of some of those. There are other guns out there that will work just fine, but they haven't proven themselves to me to the point I'll stake my life or reputation on to recommend until I've shot the snot out of them.

As far as accessories go, good holsters for handguns, lights and slings for shotguns and carbines are a must for me. I like single point slings, some people don't. But I train with them constantly. What ever you decide on buy quality....that doesn't necessarily mean the most expensive. Red dot sights are a perfect example. Some of the cheaper models work well, some don't. My advice would be to decide on a budget, double it, then read every thing you can on what you chose before you spend.

Whatever you decide on you need to become familiar with it to the point that your hands and eye go to the controls and sights without conscious thought. That's the reason I don't use pistol grips on shotguns, when my hand folds around that grip my thumb is going for an AR15 safety.....not what you find on any shotgun I know of.

Don't forget Momma and the older kids when building a home defense kit, backup is nice and they are probably all you'll have.

Rob

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:08 am

firefuzz wrote:
rjohns94 wrote: So my question is,

High capacity handgun or carbine, or shotgun? What do you or would you choose? Pistol caliber carbine? 5.56 platform? What features do you consider important on such a weapon? Open sights? Red dot? Collapsible stock? Single point sling? Scope?

Sorry no levergun or shotgun. Has to be a mag fed weapon due to legal restrictions, and offer precise shooting to a reasonable distance.

Let me hear your thoughts.(edited)
rjohns94, I'm curious about the no shotgun. I wouldn't dream of building a home defense tool kit without at least one dependable repeating shotgun.

As far as your original question, your "home defense tool kit" need at least one of each, probably more of at least two of them. I'm a big fan of shotguns in a home defense roll, especially in the yard, especially at night.

For pistols I push Glocks because I know they're reliable but there are many other fine guns so pick what suits you.

As far as pistol cartridge carbines, those would be my last choice and last tool put in the box. I'd stick to the AR platform because of cost and availability as well as I have no problems with an AR that I maintain being reliable. But again, there are a lot of choices out there, pick what you like that's proven dependable.

As far as shotguns go I'm pretty picky. If it doesn't say Remington, Mossberg, Browning or Benelli on it I'm not going to recommend it to anyone, and only certain models of some of those. There are other guns out there that will work just fine, but they haven't proven themselves to me to the point I'll stake my life or reputation on to recommend until I've shot the snot out of them.

As far as accessories go, good holsters for handguns, lights and slings for shotguns and carbines are a must for me. I like single point slings, some people don't. But I train with them constantly. What ever you decide on buy quality....that doesn't necessarily mean the most expensive. Red dot sights are a perfect example. Some of the cheaper models work well, some don't. My advice would be to decide on a budget, double it, then read every thing you can on what you chose before you spend.

Whatever you decide on you need to become familiar with it to the point that your hands and eye go to the controls and sights without conscious thought. That's the reason I don't use pistol grips on shotguns, when my hand folds around that grip my thumb is going for an AR15 safety.....not what you find on any shotgun I know of.

Don't forget Momma and the older kids when building a home defense kit, backup is nice and they are probably all you'll have.

Rob

No shotgun because this is not home defense. The thought is stuck in a riot mob situation while out and about. A shotgun is, IMHO, not the right choice for taking out a threat within in a mob. For home defense, I have the shotgun covered, as well as battle rifle. My thoughts were to defend against specific threats in a rioting mob that threatens ones life. I don't see police officers carrying shotguns against mobs and I actually see less and less of the MP5 type weapons showing up in theses cases. These were my thoughts. As far as practice, my firearms get plenty of practice and I'm well familiar them Thanks for the comments

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:18 pm

I'd lean towards a glock 19, a half dozen standard mags, and several 33 rd mags. A carbine size AR and a half dozen or so mags would be nice to have also. Most take down with the pushpins to stow compactly in a vehicle or bag. A decent red dot or modern sight would be worthwhile.

I'm kind of liking the compact red dot sights some are using on carry pistols also.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:36 pm

Well, after the retired CIA guy just announced that there will likely be stuff going down in malls and so on, even though I haven't gone to "the mall" in 10-15 years, it does tempt me to keep something even more than the P-14....

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:33 pm

Handguns are only carried to buy you time to get to your real gun.
That's why they are called sidearms. You don't always have your long gun within reach.

Of course if you know you are going to a gunfight, you take your biggest,baddest gun and all your friends with their biggest, baddest guns.

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:32 am

@7.62
What's with the buffer/stabilizer tube on the end of those pistol conversions? Is that a workaround for the SBR requirement?

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 4:37 am

Identify the "leader". Remove leader. Repeat as necessary. Tools are just that, it's the tactics and improvisational thinking when those fail that will see you thru. If you think it's easy, sister... you picked the wrong job.

walks with gun · Post by **walks with gun** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 7:53 am

Extra rifle money seems to be hard to come up with sometimes, but a good pump shotgun is a good is easy to come up with. A shotgun and a couple bandoleers of ammo should keep all but the totally insane away.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:51 am

Panzercat wrote:@7.62
What's with the buffer/stabilizer tube on the end of those pistol conversions? Is that a workaround for the SBR requirement?

Yes, it keeps it from being an SBR. I prefer the real stock, of course, but the stabilizer tube is convenient for things like travel, states that don't allow SBR, etc.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:54 am

walks with gun wrote:Extra rifle money seems to be hard to come up with sometimes, but a good pump shotgun is a good is easy to come up with. A shotgun and a couple bandoleers of ammo should keep all but the totally insane away.

A shotgun is very flexible for hunting and survival, etc., but it has limitations for home defense/self-defense roles.

There is a reason that law enforcement is trading in shotguns for carbines. A shotgun is better than nothing, but a carbine is more effective for most self-defense purposes.

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:21 am

I just recently decided to finally get an AR. I decided to do a build kit and purchase my own lower receiver. In addition to an AR, the Army is beginning to issue the M26 MASS (Modular Accessory Shotgun System). According to the WIKILINK, this has been around since 2003, however, the first time that I have seen them issued to regular Infantry and Armor units was only recently. If I were likely to ever get a Class III, this would likely be my choice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M26_Modula ... gun_System

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:32 am

Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:Handguns are only carried to buy you time to get to your real gun.

I often hope that's said in fun, though I think many take it way too seriously. I keep a long gun in my vehicle for the most part, and that was part of the question here, what to keep in a vehicle for riot/unrest situations, but in most situations, what you have on you at the moment is all you get to solve the problem. A long gun in the vehicle is often too far away once things go bad, even if you're standing next to it.

Back to the long gun question,...

I've been thinking on a compact lever gun for vehicle and possible discreet carry. The direction I'm leaning is 16" 92 in 44 cal, decent irons, small red dot on the barrel, light mount, and side folding stock. The folder would allow carry in a short package, for having around in less permissive environments or taking along when riding with others and not wanting to attract attention. The work will have to wait til I recover from the injuries and am working more, but that's the idea. Self loaders are great and all, and ideal for true self defense situations and certainly in a riot situation, but not something I tend to carry around in the vehicle all the time. Lever or bolt action are working guns, and I generally always have some sort of working gun with me.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 11:45 am

Malamute wrote:I've been thinking on a compact lever gun for vehicle and possible discreet carry. The direction I'm leaning is 16" 92 in 44 cal . . .

They were the assault rifle of their day, and nothing has changed to make them less effective. You could do a lot worse than a small lever gun.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:04 pm

7.62 Precision wrote:
Malamute wrote:I've been thinking on a compact lever gun for vehicle and possible discreet carry. The direction I'm leaning is 16" 92 in 44 cal . . .
They were the assault rifle of their day, and nothing has changed to make them less effective. You could do a lot worse than a small lever gun.

That would be my second choice if my everyday carry was a wheelgun, 357 or 44mag. But, I carry this old Glock 22 so for a road trip package I went with the Sub 2000. Also folded, it fits neatly into a soft leather laptop bag.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:26 pm

Malamute wrote:I've been thinking on a compact lever gun for vehicle and possible discreet carry. The direction I'm leaning is 16" 92 in 44 cal, decent irons, small red dot on the barrel, light mount, and side folding stock. The folder would allow carry in a short package, for having around in less permissive environments or taking along when riding with others and not wanting to attract attention.

I've thought along the same lines, and the mods I call my 'Night Scout' versions have all that except the folding stock.

I've not gone to the folding stock (yet?) because I really don't travel in places urban enough I can't just keep an AR-15 in my vehicle if I want, much less a levergun, but it would be kind of a nice addition. Of course it wouldn't look 'traditional' though...

The other issue with tube-loading firearms is that there are situations where possessing the gun would be legal, yet having it loaded would not, such as many states in a vehicle. With the slow loading of a levergun (though the 'tube-loading' ones like my 16" 454 Casull are potentially faster) that is especially annoying.

Someone could make some money off of me if they designed a tubular detachable magazine that could be safely stored loaded...

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 2:05 pm

Its sort of the opposite to me, in a more urban setting I'd think an AR is more generally useful. Where I am, besides a riot being profoundly unlikely, I keep guns around as tools more than defensive weapons. A working gun in a more useful caliber than 223 is more practical. No problem with keeping one loaded in the places I've lived most of my life. Travelling to more civilized states is where the unloaded thing becomes an issue.

I've had ideas about a tube loader similar to the shotgun speed loaders. I never studied it much, but it could likely do done.

In the general caliber realm, the extra capacity of the pistol caliber lever is nice, but I find the 30-30 size shells much easier to handle and load into the gun. I could go either way as to caliber and be happy. The extra range of the 30-30 stays prominent in my mind whenever thinking on this stuff. I'm pretty "Meh" on the whole pistol caliber carbine thing overall. I may be trying to rationalize the Browning 92 into some useful niche, I find I rarely ever get it out or shoot it much. It never gets carried in the hills or as a truck gun. Its a yard gun at best for me.

yooper2 · Post by **yooper2** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 2:56 pm

I'm in the same boat as Malamute. There is always a levergun in the truck/on the tractor as they are my idea of a working firearm. My nearest neighbor is 3/4 of mile away so rioting isn't going be much of a problem unless it's all 300 people at the county fair. My choice of caliber has been shifting towards 30/30 or 38/55 as I get more land cleared for livestock and more coyotes are seen at longer range. Where 75 yards used be a long shot it's not uncommon to shoot out to 150 or more now making my 357 92 less useful. If I had to go to town on a regular basis I would want an AR or M1A in the truck over a levergun, but for out here they are more than adequate.

Eric

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 3:23 pm

If I had to go to town on a regular basis I would want an AR or M1A in the truck over a levergun, but for out here they are more than adequate.

Just thinkin' - all this is just normal stuff to talk about to most of us here on this forum, who come from a wide variety of backgrounds, but share the common thread of being self-sufficient, well-educated, intelligent, hard-working, law-abiding citizens who have broad life experiences, and who place a high value on family and friends, and thus their safety, as well as that of the community at-large.

On the other hand, think how such a comment would sound to the self-anointed liberal intellectuals (who typically have less education than the average 'redneck' in 'flyover country' they make fun of), who have been raised in sheltered, socially intolerant, government-dependent households.

"OMG - they feel a need to have g-g-g-guns in their vehicles...!!!"

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 3:46 pm

Of course there's this option, if you are ok with 9mm - 50 rounds in the gun and a spare magazine pouch can hold another 100-round magazine.

Not only that - - - it looks like it could just reside under your jacket, so you wouldn't have to get to your vehicle...

Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgyF2wEaXLs#t=22

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 4:25 pm

AJMD429 wrote: Someone could make some money off of me if they designed a tubular detachable magazine that could be safely stored loaded...

People have thought in that direction before.

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 4:32 pm

I"m not much for defensive weaponry per se, but the tube feeds strike me as being useful in that you can load as you go. You don't have to wait til the magazine is empty, or throw away partially loaded mags before they are dry. Might be that they are slow to fill but you can do it "at your leasure" in the midst of this hypothetical civil unrest. That would seem to cancel out much of the "slow to load" factor, assuming that you started with a full tube.

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 4:47 pm

Griff wrote:Identify the "leader". Remove leader. Repeat as necessary. Tools are just that, it's the tactics and improvisational thinking when those fail that will see you thru. If you think it's easy, sister... you picked the wrong job.

^ I agree with this. A group will probably disperse once they are showered with brain matter from the leader.

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:42 pm

AJMD429 wrote:Someone could make some money off of me if they designed a tubular detachable magazine that could be safely stored loaded...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_Storm

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:53 pm

BrentD wrote:I"m not much for defensive weaponry per se, but the tube feeds strike me as being useful in that you can load as you go. You don't have to wait til the magazine is empty, or throw away partially loaded mags before they are dry. Might be that they are slow to fill but you can do it "at your leasure" in the midst of this hypothetical civil unrest. That would seem to cancel out much of the "slow to load" factor, assuming that you started with a full tube.

You can reload with detachable magazines at your leisure as well.

One advantage tubular magazines sometimes have is that it can be easy to load a different kind of cartridge, bypassing the magazine, for example, or popping one in the magazine, as is often done with pump shotguns.

Ridgerunner · Post by **Ridgerunner** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:54 pm

Nothing wrong with a good 870 Rem. I have several in various locations around the house. In my time as a firearms instructor, I found that the recoil of the shotgun was the major factor most shooters had problems with. There are other items of self defense around the house, but I have killed many a deer with #1 & 00 buck. Not crazy about the big hollow base standard rifled slug, but a 20 ga. Partition Gold 3" slug will shoot almost front to back lengthwise on Bambi. Lever guns are good, also, but a bit slow to reload. Whatever you use, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!!! Shooting is a perishable skill. Ammo is somewhat of a problem, but most of us can manage 10-15 rounds a month, concentrating on sight picture, trigger press and proper breathing control. On a handgun, a proper grip is essential also. IMHO.

wm · Post by wm » Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:58 pm

Never seen one of these 9mm carbines in person but a Beretta 92 and one of these Citadel carbines would seem to be a good combination...........and they make extended magazine of like 30 rounds for the Beretta don't they?

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013 ... formation/

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:58 pm

BrentD wrote:I"m not much for defensive weaponry per se, but the tube feeds strike me as being useful in that you can load as you go. You don't have to wait til the magazine is empty, or throw away partially loaded mags before they are dry. Might be that they are slow to fill but you can do it "at your leasure" in the midst of this hypothetical civil unrest. That would seem to cancel out much of the "slow to load" factor, assuming that you started with a full tube.

No need to do that with a detachable magazine gun either. And there are few good reasons to throw a magazine away, empty or not.

One of the strong points of detachable magazines is the ability to "top it off" at any point by simply changing magazines to a full one. I also believe that "starting with it full" was part of the reason for desiring a detachable mag gun, the legality of having a loaded gun the vehicle, so we have to assume it starts empty when comparing in this instance.

As for levers, I agree, I think the best way to run them is to try to keep them topped off as much as possible. The parameters of the OP would put the lever action way behind the curve if one were needed quickly, since it would be starting out unloaded.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:59 pm

Ridgerunner wrote:Nothing wrong with a good 870 Rem. I have several in various locations around the house. In my time as a firearms instructor, I found that the recoil of the shotgun was the major factor most shooters had problems with. There are other items of self defense around the house, but I have killed many a deer with #1 & 00 buck. Not crazy about the big hollow base standard rifled slug, but a 20 ga. Partition Gold 3" slug will shoot almost front to back lengthwise on Bambi. Lever guns are good, also, but a bit slow to reload. Whatever you use, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!!! Shooting is a perishable skill. Ammo is somewhat of a problem, but most of us can manage 10-15 rounds a month, concentrating on sight picture, trigger press and proper breathing control. On a handgun, a proper grip is essential also. IMHO.

Yes, but this isn't about around the house. The reason for not wanting a shotgun were outlined in the OP. (as were the reasons for not wanting a levergun,... )