44/40 VS 45 colt for Deer

barbarossa · Post by **barbarossa** » Thu May 22, 2014 4:01 am

Thinking about picking up one of the new miroku Winchester 73s and for deer hunting under 100 yards which cal would be better in this rifle.

junkbug · Post by **junkbug** » Thu May 22, 2014 4:29 am

If you want a Miroku Winchester 1873, I believe the only caliber they make them in right now is .357 mag. Unless I missed something.

barbarossa · Post by **barbarossa** » Thu May 22, 2014 4:32 am

Nope they are currently made in 44/40 and 45 colt as well.I could buy one in 45 colt right now but am thinking about ordering one in 44/40

86er · Post by **86er** » Thu May 22, 2014 6:58 am

I have little experience with 44/40 on game but have seen some. Most were factory ammo that was 200 grain bullet and around 1140 fps. I imagine it gets more out of a rifle. One handloader had 240 grain bullets going 1300 fps. Now, neither is anything to sneeze at but in my limited observations they were not real effective in the short term. A ram, an antelope and a deer were the game and none died instantly or within what I would call a short time. 2 of them were shot several times in a several second span. All of these were 50 yds or less shot distance. Now, plenty of deer an other stuff has been killed with 44/40 and there'll be many other experiences shared here. Pete Richards used on at my place but I do not recall the details, so maybe he will chime in. I do have quite a bit of experience with 45 Colt from both a rifle and pistol in hunting situations. I've seen 225 grain bullets at 795 fps from a handgun and 335 grain bullets at 1450 fps from a rifle. These are completely different beasts. My first question is "What is the rifle capable of handling"? and then "Are you going to reload, and what"? I think the 45 Colt affords you more options, but if the ballistics are kept very similar, shot placement and distance is more of a deciding factor. A 250 grain .452 at around 1500 fps is a very formidable round for close range deer.

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Thu May 22, 2014 7:42 am

I shoot the 44-40 a lot and have killed a few deer with it but almost always from the 92 using hand loads of 200 grain XTP over way more 296 than I will say here. Took a decent buck at about 90 yards that I remember vividly. Shot him 3 times real quick but he went down in 20 yards or so. I doubt the other 2 shots had much effect on the outcome.
The 44-40 is the first caliber the 73 was chambered for so for traditions sake alone I would choose it. The 45 Colt can be loaded to whatever level you choose but in a 73 I would be cautious with my loads.

Centennial · Post by **Centennial** » Thu May 22, 2014 7:46 am

I reload for both and have 1873 Winchesters in both (the 45 Colt is converted).
Are you already reloading for either or both?
44-40 has very thin brass, almost foil like at the mouth. It's a tapered case so that strikes out Carbide Dies. The 44-40 chamber & throat limit bullet diameter, weight, length to a certain extant.

45 Colt has thick brass, straight walled case so Carbide Dies are available. Wider variety of bullet weights available.

They don't necessarily kill like a hi-powered super sonic rifle. Bullet placement is more critical.
At 1000 fps 200 grains can pass through deer so how much penetration does one need? I think the old timers got closer then we have become accustomed to, and probably had some get away too. Getting 1200 fps MV is the norm in those 1873 rifles and you can squeeze 1500 to 1600 fps. But heavier bullets and 1500+ fps MV is another thing and maybe to much for the rifle. But now Uberti is making them for 44 magnum. WOW!
Maybe take a look at them.

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Thu May 22, 2014 8:04 am

I have no personal experience but here are two examples of .44-40 performance on deer ........

From another website....
Well, I had success this weekend with the 44-40. It had been raining and sleeting for two days. I was not using my deer stand, because the deer were not moving. I was still hunting and pushing the marshes and watering holes. I pushed this 6 point out and he went up into some higher ground and pines. When I worked my way to the pines I spotted him again. The shot was from 75 yards and in thick cover. The whole buck was not visible due to trees.

I could see the rack and left front quarter between two 4" pine trees. We were both looking at each other and I knew I had very little time before he'd be gone. I thought about all the practice shots with this rifle for the last nine months and lined the old Marlin up. I aimed a little high due to the range. One shot from the 44-40 and he just dropped. I cycled the action and waited for any movement. Retrieved my brass and I'm a very happy Hunter. Grin

From Doc Tombs on the SASS Website several years ago.....
"I took 2 deer this year with a `73 short rifle clone in .44 W.C.F. My hunting partner took 3 deer with a Marlin in 44 magnum. We both using hand loaded cast bullets, mine weighed 200 grains, his 240 grain. His came out of the barrel at over 1,700 f.p.s., mine came out the barrel at 1,290. All deer were shot at under 100 yards."
The results:
- all deer dropped within 50 yards
- no bullets were recovered (complete broadside penetration)
"There was NO difference on effectiveness between the two calibers. Of course I still believe the Magnum is a superior deer cartridge. Probably the result of too many years of reading gun magazines."
"But the reward of using a '73 in .44 W.C.F. with original velocity cartridges is immeasurable."

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Thu May 22, 2014 8:07 am

Here is some information from an 1875 Winchester Catalog
(Soft lead bullets at 1,300 f.p.s.)

..."I have fully tested the late improved Winchester Rifle and take pleasure in stating that it is the best rifle I have ever used. I have killed a number of deer, at distances from one to two hundred yards and in every instance, the bullet passed clean through the body."

..."I killed at a full gallop, at about 100 yards distant, a very large buckwith a splendid set of antlers with the first shot. The bullet struck him in the shoulder, as he ran toward me, and after traversing the entire length of his body, tearing the lights and paunch into atoms in its course, it passed out behind through the thickest part of the ham."

..."The killing qualities, at large game, is all that could be desired, to the wonder and admiration of the guides and sportsmen who saw its working during my visit to the Adirondack woods last fall." ..."I can say for one, that I think the Winchester Model of 1873 is the best firearm now in use for hunting and sporting; they give the best satisfaction to every one that has used them here. James Gary and C.S. Martin have killed 17 bears and 100 deer since the first of September with Model 1873.

."For a sporting rifle, I think the Winchester Rifle is excelled by none. I have killed antelope, deer, and elk, with my gun, at from 200 to 400 yards. I would not exchange it for any other rifle."

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Thu May 22, 2014 10:04 am

What was that old saying??? "More men, good or bad. More game, big or small..." or something to that effect. In reference to the 44 WCF

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Thu May 22, 2014 10:17 am

I think the idea of a .44/40 BP load giving pass-throughs on deer to 200 yards is factory fantasy.

Centennial · Post by **Centennial** » Thu May 22, 2014 12:06 pm

With my corrected vision I have 20/16 eyes.
At 200 yards under field conditions, I cannot confidently see enough of a deer through the sights to place my shot in the heart.

I shot one buck at 170 yards with iron sights off cross sticks, and after a long 4 hour wait for him to come in from 300+. That required a follow up shot to finish him
Shot a Bear twice at 50 feet well placed shots in the vitals with the 73.
Killed a Jackrabbit at 179 yards using Kentucky windage and hold over with tang sighted 22LR. Back of thew head and I had witnesses.

I think one has to figure in what the FPS is down range, and if that will be adequate at the maximum range your able to hit at.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Thu May 22, 2014 12:24 pm

I had a pair of recent manufacture Marlin's n 44-40 as well as a pair in 45 Colt .

Shooting cast bullets in them both I saw no apperant difference . However I tend to lean the way of the 44-40 simply because I like .429" cal bullets more then .452" !

Both the Marlin 44-40's I had used them same barrel inside diameter as the present Marlin 44 MAg's so it was no big deal about getting the correct diameter bullets .

Either of the rifles with iron sights I would have been happy with out to 75 or 80 yards in hunting situations . If I had scoped them I might extend the distance to 100-125 yards but thats about it for me to feel comfortable .

I would think the 45 Colt would fall in pretty much the same area for me atleast .

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Thu May 22, 2014 12:54 pm

The real issue is the one of ammo availability. I own a 32-20 92 Winoku and like it. I have long ago forgotten any concerns over the modern design regarding the safety and such. However I do sometimes wish it was a 44 Mag when I see piles of bullets, components, and loaded ammo on the shelf. Availability of American mail order is a plus factor though. The .427 bullet might be a bit of a hardship but .430 cast should work real well if the case neck isn't tight in the chamber. Handloading would be needed for optimum performance in either cartridge. Using the 32-20 as an example handloading a modern steel rifle results in amazing differences in hunting performance and sensible advice is right here. The 32-20 cases are prone to thin necks for reloading. Edit: 6pt has answered some of the bullet questions above.

I would buy the 45 Colt in a heartbeat especially because it is available. With that Winoku rifle chambered for 357 Magnum it would suggest reasonable reloads are acceptable. It wouldn't be necessary to push that lever stupid hard however. It would knock deer down just fine to 150 paces. Loaded stout it would kick a bit but loaded to handgun levels it would be downright pleasant to shoot.

If a vintage cartridge is not an issue, it is for me usually thus the 32-20 and 32 Special levers, the 357 Magnum would make a very dandy deer rifle with limitless choices for ammo from rabbit to bad guy to black bear camp rifle. If I ever buy another pistol cartridge lever it will be either 357 or 44 Magnum.

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Thu May 22, 2014 12:58 pm

Bill in Oregon wrote:I think the idea of a .44/40 BP load giving pass-throughs on deer to 200 yards is factory fantasy.

Bill,
Elmer Keith wrote about shooting a bear with a factory .45 Colt cartridge which penetrated the bear completely.
The 44-40 from a rifle at 200 yards carries a bit more velocity than the .45 Colt handgun does at the muzzle........

w30wcf

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Thu May 22, 2014 1:17 pm

Bill in Oregon wrote:I think the idea of a .44/40 BP load giving pass-throughs on deer to 200 yards is factory fantasy.

Slow, heavy, and minimal expansion can sometimes give surprising penetration. And sometimes not.

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Thu May 22, 2014 1:36 pm

I've never shot a deer with the .45 Colt but I've shot a couple with the 44WCF out of a 92 carbine.
I used the 200gr Hornady XTP over 10gr of Unique and they were both DRT. One was a nice 185lb 8pt buck at 75yrds. I found the slug burried half way through a 4" hemlock behind the deer. The other was a nice fat doe at very close range. Never found the slug.
Don't underestimate these old cartridges. They are just as good as they ever were.
An old feller told me when I started casting bullets......."Don't get too hung up on the velocity. When you get a load that shoots well and you can put em all where you need em, it will probably drop a deer in the woods. The more you shoot it the better your chances".

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu May 22, 2014 1:38 pm

Give me 100 grains moving at about 3000 FPS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBuXPGDAF0s

Post by **Old Savage** » Thu May 22, 2014 2:03 pm

Pretty hard to do from a 44/40.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Thu May 22, 2014 2:10 pm

Old Savage wrote:Pretty hard to do from a 44/40.

It could be done.

Once.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu May 22, 2014 2:34 pm

I think one has to figure in what the FPS is down range, and if that will be adequate at the maximum range your able to hit at.

^ this

.22LR will penetrate into the boiler room at 400 yards according to the tube.

Post by **Old Savage** » Thu May 22, 2014 4:36 pm

I would have to vote for the 45 Colt. The only plus for the 44-40 is nostalgia.

JB · Post by JB » Thu May 22, 2014 4:51 pm

45 Colt by a long shot.

JB · Post by JB » Thu May 22, 2014 4:53 pm

w30wcf wrote:
Bill in Oregon wrote:I think the idea of a .44/40 BP load giving pass-throughs on deer to 200 yards is factory fantasy.
Bill,
Elmer Keith wrote about shooting a bear with a factory .45 Colt cartridge which penetrated the bear completely.
The 44-40 from a rifle at 200 yards carries a bit more velocity than the .45 Colt handgun does at the muzzle........

w30wcf

Keith may have been telling the truth about that one, but he told far too many tall tales for me to put much faith in his stories.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu May 22, 2014 5:43 pm

Old Savage wrote:Pretty hard to do from a 44/40.

But not your 6 mm

EdinCT · Post by **EdinCT** » Thu May 22, 2014 6:10 pm

I would have to say the 45 driving a slug 50 gr's heavier would have more penetration. However I have killed deer with the 38 WCF and it worked well and the 44 would do the same.(History proves it) I would use the 44 but you pay your money and make your choice. If you shoot well either will do the job.

BenT · Post by **BenT** » Thu May 22, 2014 9:27 pm

Depends on how fast the bullet is moving. I have found the older slower cartridges puts nice big holes in the deer so they do bleed out good, but they will run aways and not die right on the spot. So it depends on where you hunt and if you have space for deer to travel a little without going into a neighbors property .

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Fri May 23, 2014 10:06 am

To put the whole thing in perspective .

What is probably one of the greatest whitetail bucks of all time , The Jordan Buck was killed with a 25-20 albeit about 6 shots to kill the deer. A good number of deer I know of in recent years in my general area have been killed with 32-20's . When I hunted northeast PA I knew of two older fellows who killed a buck every year using 38-40's shooting factory loads . As to the 44-40 it should be able to do anything the 38-40 can do and possibly a touch better .

As to the original question of the 45 Colt versus the 44-40 I personally don't see any difference as I'd shoot cast 200 grainers in either and the velocities would be about the same .

This is about the same as arguing the 30-30 against the 32 Special .

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Fri May 23, 2014 12:14 pm

At the end of the day, 300 fps or 3000 fps, it all comes down to shot placement.

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Fri May 23, 2014 2:26 pm

Looked up the Winchester site. The 73 is a nice rifle with no safety, excellent.

I was very impressed with the fit and finish of my 92 Deluxe Take Down 92. That rifle would be a very nice catch. My vote, worth nothing of course, is still for the 45 Colt or 357 as second choice. As stated nostalgia is the main reason for a 44-40. Certainly a valid reason but very personal. No-one will ever see this rifle as a true blue Winchester so historical validity is simply personal. I bought my 32-20 for just this reason and happy. today I would buy with a more direct view to supply of ammo and components.

That little 73 would make one of the most unique deer rifles imaginable. I just might have to rethink a new Winchester!!!

All three cartridges will easily handle deer if a guy can hit what he aims at. The 44-40and 45 Colt will require reloading however.

PS, my 92 will do 2200+fps with 100 grain bullets according to Paco. Its not 3000fps but it makes a real performer out of an antique cartridge.

.45colt · Post by **.45colt** » Fri May 23, 2014 2:42 pm

WOW,..... at this rate I will have to buy more popcorn.........

.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri May 23, 2014 2:45 pm

Canuck Bob wrote:Looked up the Winchester site. The 73 is a nice rifle with no safety, excellent.

I was very impressed with the fit and finish of my 92 Deluxe Take Down 92. That rifle would be a very nice catch. My vote, worth nothing of course, is still for the 45 Colt or 357 as second choice. As stated nostalgia is the main reason for a 44-40. Certainly a valid reason but very personal. No-one will ever see this rifle as a true blue Winchester so historical validity is simply personal. I bought my 32-20 for just this reason and happy. today I would buy with a more direct view to supply of ammo and components.

That little 73 would make one of the most unique deer rifles imaginable. I just might have to rethink a new Winchester!!!

All three cartridges will easily handle deer if a guy can hit what he aims at. The 44-40and 45 Colt will require reloading however.

PS, my 92 will do 2200+fps with 100 grain bullets according to Paco. Its not 3000fps but it makes a real performer out of an antique cartridge.

Bob,

What do you mean the 44-40 and 45 Colt will require reloading? Are you thinking they are single shots needing reloading after initial shot? I probably am interpreting it wrong!

I see in the .357/38 they are having jamming issues?(38 specials) Also check the wood on the gun they got?? Not the usual at least of the Brownings coming out of there??
http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/winches ... un-review/

Myself, save a grand and grab a sweet vintage 1970's Marlin 336 in 35 Rem

Barbarossa, good luck whatever you get, hope she is a beauty and shoots extremely well.

buckeyeshooter · Post by **buckeyeshooter** » Sat May 24, 2014 9:09 am

Owning a pair of 44-40 rifle, a Winchester 92 and a Uberti 66, I have taken deer with the 44-40. I used a 200 grain XTP and a max charge of unique. I got 1480fps out of the Winchester 92 that has a 24 inch barrel on my chrono. I would not shoot that load in the 66 (19 inch barrel), because of its toggle link design. I stick to loads chronographing 1240fps. My 73 would use the 66 loads!
I am positive you could beat the speeds and use a heavier bullet in the 45 colt. I'm just a 44 cal guy. I don't own a 45 colt anything!

OLBIKER · Post by **OLBIKER** » Sat May 24, 2014 9:50 am

w30wcf wrote:
Bill in Oregon wrote:I think the idea of a .44/40 BP load giving pass-throughs on deer to 200 yards is factory fantasy.
Bill,
Elmer Keith wrote about shooting a bear with a factory .45 Colt cartridge which penetrated the bear completely.
The 44-40 from a rifle at 200 yards carries a bit more velocity than the .45 Colt handgun does at the muzzle........

w30wcf

Maybe with factory black powder loads.I can easily get 1450 FPS with a 300 grain hardcast and a healthy dose of 296 out of my 45 Ruger Bisley.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat May 24, 2014 11:10 am

buckeyeshooter wrote:Owning a pair of 44-40 rifle, a Winchester 92 and a Uberti 66, I have taken deer with the 44-40. I used a 200 grain XTP and a max charge of unique. I got 1480fps out of the Winchester 92 that has a 24 inch barrel on my chrono. I would not shoot that load in the 66 (19 inch barrel), because of its toggle link design. I stick to loads chronographing 1240fps. My 73 would use the 66 loads!
I am positive you could beat the speeds and use a heavier bullet in the 45 colt. I'm just a 44 cal guy. I don't own a 45 colt anything!

no 45 colt? me too. just an accident of times past . I shot a cast 320 gr bullet from my 10" SBH and took a lot of deer with it. someone ridiculed me when he tried it and found it was only going 1100 fps. every shot was a pass thru but one, which went thru the skull and traveled along the spine. no escapees and most dropped where they stood.

low velocity isn't the problem many suppose it to be, and the benefits are numerous.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat May 24, 2014 11:31 am

Whatever you do... don't confuse loads in the .44-40 intended for use in an 1892 or Ruger as being appropriate or the equivalent of loads suitable for an 1873! Don't get confused over various levels of loading either cartridge that are NOT appropriate to Winchester Model of 1873. Original BP velocities will be adequate from either cartridge to get game. I can push my .45Colts up to .45-70 levels from my 1982... but I wouldn't dream of using those loads in my 1873!

As stated on here many times before... if you want more power, get MORE GUN! At one time I chrono'd factory loads from my Uberti 1873... They weren't barn-burners by any stretch of the imagination. ISTR, that there were minimal gains over what the same loads chrono'd out of my 4-¾" Colt SAA.

The .44WCF was introduced as a rifle cartridge in the mdl 1873... the 45Colt was introduced as a handgun cartridge in the Colt SAA. But... the 45Colt was the acknowledged powerhouse between the two cartridges when compared to each other out of a handgun. Frankly, I don't see that relationship as being changed just due to barrel length. But... there just isn't enough difference in one from the other to make much of a difference.

One thing to consider, the 45Colt wasn't chambered in a long gun until 1985. In the Winchester mdl 94 lever gun. And every long gun since has been chambered in such a manner that they are nearly at SAAMI max specs. This does have a impact on the cartridge's downrange ballistics.

Another consideration is bullet construction and design. The .44WCF has been pretty much stalled with regard to that... As IMO, bullets designed for the .44Mag are not appropriate for the velocity of the .44-40. Just as bullets designed for the .454Casull or .45Magnum are not appropriate for the BP velocities of the .45Colt. BUT!!! and this is a biggie for me... the bullets designed or the 45ACP ARE appropriate for use in the .45Colt... I use several of them. I have 50 rounds loaded up with the old Speer "flying ashtray" 200gr HP. (One of my favorite all time bullets from either 45ACP or 45Colt). I've yet to have the opportunity to use it on game however...

Frankly, between the 45Colt & .44WCF, I'm tellin' you at 1873 loading levels... you're simply faced with a "Ford vs Chevy" thing. Both are adequate for the task... and differences in styling and performance are simply in the imagination of the beer-holder!!!

(Even if Ford lovers live a skewed, alternative reality....)

IIRC, it took nearly 50 years for the .30-30 to surpass the .44-40 as the "deer gettin'ist cartridge" of all time. And nothing since has surpassed the .30-30. (TMK). The .45Colt will NEVER be in the same category...

barbarossa · Post by **barbarossa** » Sat May 24, 2014 1:08 pm

As long as the two cartridges are similar in performance when used in a 73 my choice will more or less be based on which is more easily available in my area

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Sat May 24, 2014 6:21 pm

For my use the .45 Colt wins..

First: it's what I have, and what I've used with great success for a good number of years.. With the exception of a couple rimfires, all my handguns are chambered for .45 Colt..

Second: with judicious handloads, I can throw 250-grain .45 slugs accurately down-range at something in excess of 1500 fps, and they hit like sledgehammers out to 200 yards.. i get velocity improvement of approx 350 fps over the same load in a 7 1/2" revolver..

Third: the .45 is so much easier and more forgiving to load than the WCF round.. .45 Colt cases are thicker and tougher, and have no 'shoulder' to buckle when applying a good criimp.. I do have all the necessary tools and dies for reloading the old .44, but prefer not to engage in the hassle..

Lastly: I have a beautiful ANIB Uberti '73 short rifle with octagon barrel that I dearly love.. It may not say WINCHESTER on the barrel, but it sings the same song in my mind..

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat May 24, 2014 9:06 pm

That all makes sense.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon May 26, 2014 1:40 pm

So, which of Elmer Keith's stories can you PROVE to be tall tales? Were you there? Did you witness Keith do or not do these things? I don't think so.

Elmer Keith lived a life few to none of us will ever experience. He carried a hand gun on his person every day of his life where he was able to do so. Used it more in a year than most will in a life time.

So, I chose to believe his stories.

Not just because he said so, but because I have lived with the .45 Colt since the early 1970s. I've lost count of how many thousands of those rounds I've sent down range. I have owned single action and double action revolvers as well as various lever guns chambered for the .45 Colt. I won't part with them either.

Without checking my copies of Sixguns by Keith and Hell I was there to verify this, I will say "I think" it was Keith that said higher velocity won't make the heavy bullets perform any better, it just flattens out the trajectory a bit.

For hunting I have two loads: A 265gr Keith SWC over 9.0grs Unique or 18.5grs 2400. I can take anything on this continent with those loads if I just follow my own advice. [{ Read my sig line.}]

Joe

Bucks Owin · Post by **Bucks Owin** » Tue May 27, 2014 11:22 am

Wasn't TOO many decades ago that there was speculation as to which caliber had killed the most deer. .44 WCF or .30 WCF? That might be something to think about...

Inside 100 yds like you mentioned, .44 WCF will do the job as well as it ever has which numbers what....millions?