Moose Gun 444 Marlin

[daisygordoninc]

One gun I have considered for a Moose and large bear gun is my 444 Marlin. Has anyone had experience with the 44 on large or dangerous game ? I know Buffalo Bore makes some really stout loads for them.

Gordon Johnson

[FWiedner]

Mr. Gordon, now yer talkin'.

[wolfdog]

I killed a Maverick(car not horse) with one many years ago with the old 265 grain Hornady load. One shot stop it was.

[6pt-sika]

As much as a like cast bullets in a 444 I do not think a 444 or a lever action is what I would take if I were laying out the schekels for a moose hunt somewhere .

[Pete44ru]

.


The .444 has done just fine for both my Son & I, on Canadian Moose, with heavy (265gr or more) boolits.


.

[6pt-sika]

.


The .444 has done just fine for both my Son & I, on Canadian Moose, with heavy (265gr or more) boolits.


.

Thats great !

Now , by my definition 265 grains does not constitute a heavy bullet for the caliber . When you get about 365 grains of cast lead get back to me !

I loaded some cast bullets yesterday for the 444 that weighed 465 grains after lubing and sizing !

In all honesty I think a 444 loaded with the Ranch Dog 432-300GC , my MM/RD 432-325GC , the Ranch Dog 432-350GC or my BRP/RD 432-375GC would all be fine for a moose inside of 150 yards as long as you have them stoked up with a fair amount of H322 . And all of those would work in the slow twist Micro Groove barrels as long as you water quenched all but the 300 grainer .

Now if you have a newer Marlin with the faster twist Ballard rifled barrel I got a hummdinger of a BRP/RD 432-400GC bullet . This one is the pooh with RL-7 .

[AJMD429]

I killed a Maverick(car not horse) with one many years ago with the old 265 grain Hornady load. One shot stop it was.

That sounds like an interesting story. . . .

[piller]

I seem to remember the Maverick and the forerunner of the Pinto. The Pinto and the Chevy Vega could often be stopped by a large loogie spit in front of them. The compressed rust that those two cars were made of was amazing in how fast it would fall apart.

[wvfarrier]

A properly loaded 444 will drop anything in North America within 200 yards without question.

[Blaine]

Some people don't trust them, but, I can't imagine anything in CONUS that would not crumble when hit properly with a .444 Green Box 240.....

[M. M. Wright]

Like Doc, I want to hear the Maverick story. Intrigued I think the word is.

[wolfdog]

A marroon was driving an older maverick, up and down the street, throwing bottles and bricks and whatever at my new Z-28. Kept coming back around the block and doing it again. This went on for an hour. The local police were too busy to come, called them about 8 times. Tried to get the guys tag number, but it was unreadable. Tried to stop him, and he tried to run me over. Called the police one last time and told them if they did not get there I would stop him the next time around the block. Dispatch said they were too busy again. So I put a 265 grain Hornady through his driver side tire from and 10 yards. Car shut off at once, coasted to a stop about 50 yards down the street leaving a blood trail the whole way(coolant and oil). Police were there within 5 minutes, officer had not heard about the throwing stuff, just about a shot fired. I told him what had gone on, he went down to see what was up with the guy in the car.When he opened the door a cloud of pot smoke rolled out the door. Turns out the guy had my brother whip his butt in a fight in high school about 6 years before and had seen my brother driveing my car earlier in the day and decided to get some payback. Worked out really well for him. He got 3 years for felonious destruction of private property, and 10 years for the drug charge he was on probation for.

[Blaine]

A marroon was driving an older maverick, up and down the street, throwing bottles and bricks and whatever at my new Z-28. Kept coming back around the block and doing it again. This went on for an hour. The local police were too busy to come, called them about 8 times. Tried to get the guys tag number, but it was unreadable. Tried to stop him, and he tried to run me over. Called the police one last time and told them if they did not get there I would stop him the next time around the block. Dispatch said they were too busy again. So I put a 265 grain Hornady through his driver side tire from and 10 yards. Car shut off at once, coasted to a stop about 50 yards down the street leaving a blood trail the whole way(coolant and oil). Police were there within 5 minutes, officer had not heard about the throwing stuff, just about a shot fired. I told him what had gone on, he went down to see what was up with the guy in the car.When he opened the door a cloud of pot smoke rolled out the door. Turns out the guy had my brother whip his butt in a fight in high school about 6 years before and had seen my brother driveing my car earlier in the day and decided to get some payback. Worked out really well for him. He got 3 years for felonious destruction of private property, and 10 years for the drug charge he was on probation for.

That warms my heart

[Canuck Bob]

I've used one for decades, my first new rifle in the 70s. I have some experience with Canadian moose. The 444 is a fine cartridge and I recommend it to you. Buy the better ammo or handload. 265 Hornady FN are sturdy and quite a handful. Wide meplat FN harder cast bullets are also well recommended. I plan on using 285 gr cast in mine. I have no problem with the guys who load up the real heavy weight bullets but 300 grain would be plenty for me, mine is a 38" twist and my shoulders are old guy shoulders. Besides, a .432 300 grain bullet ain't really a light weight in any bodies book!!

The Rem factory ammo remains a mystery. Years ago Rem made a 265 grainer that looked like a Hornady and it was a moose hammer. There are folks who report that the current 240 gr Rem load is a sturdy bullet and not the pistol bullet as often reported. Then I read reports of bullet failure occasionally. My 265 Hornady Interloks are so old they don't have the second cannelure.

If I was planning such a hunt I would seriously consider tracking down the Swift 44 300 grain Aframe partitioned bullet. It is well liked on the Marlin Owners 444 site. I would also insist on carrying a lever action even though that is not always considered a perfect idea. To me the lever action is the ideal hunting rifle as long as 200 yards is my personal standard, which it is for moose or elk.

I hope this thread link is acceptable as it is a dandy bullet comparison article. All the testing is in the first few pages but tons of bullet talk for a 444.

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/444-m ... nship.html

[Grizz]

I agree the 444 is a superb caliber. I don't agree that 300gr is a heavy bullet. Here's why. In Alaska I shot a lot of deer with a 44 mag using cast 325gr bullets. That is the hammer of thor, (no offense or reference to Thor), if Blaine would be so good as to forward the disclaimer to him. . . .

where was I ?

O yeah. That bullet was probably moving at about somewhere around 1100 fps, and every deer I shot but one had two holes in it and, but for the heart shots, most died before they hit the dirt. The benefit of throw weight is that the momentum factor, and thus penetration, and thus bone shattering effects happen at relatively low velocities. This means less powder, less recoil, and certain results. The one hole deer? Penetrated the head straight on, then slid along the spine, destroying vertabrae. The deer was literally dead before his knees unlocked.

I think for plains game that need long shots some of the jacketed bullets help extend range, but the results are not necessarily the same.

Or another way to put it, I never had a questionable or surprising result using cast bullets, but I had numbers of surprises using jacketed bullets in calibers from 25-20 on up. Everyone's mileage will vary.

Second to throw weight I value the meplat shape and percentage. whole 'nother angle.

so a 444 with the BTB 325 launched in the 1800 range is going to give hand gun muzzle velocity results out to the practical limit of the load.

now 420gr, THAT's heavy for caliber, and a monster up-ratchet of viability.....

Grizz

[jeepnik]

Gee, no one noticed the typo. It should read "MOUSE". After all, everyone knows that compared to the 45-70, the .444 (actually it's only a .42 caliber) only good for mice.

[Buck Elliott]

Gee, no one noticed the typo. It should read "MOUSE". After all, everyone knows that compared to the 45-70, the .444 (actually it's only a .42 caliber) only good for mice.

What's this I keep reading about "moose-phart" loads..? Is that just another unfortunate typo...? Lol

In practical terms, relative to powder capacity and pressure considerations, bullet weights of ~350 grains become "heavy" for the caliber/cartridge.. Beyond that weight range, you begin to trade weight for energy and trajectory, as velocities decrease.. Imagine lobbing a bowling ball over any distance, with any semblence of accuracy; or judging point of impact of a random spurt of water from a garden hose at hastily guessed distance..

BTW, the original .444 loads utilized Remington's 240-grain revolver bullets, and when Hornady's 265 grainers became available, Remington bought up a bunch for loading in their stretched .44..

Nothing inherently Wrong with the .444, but I find little use for it in my travels. It is NOT a .45-70, or even close... The old Gov't round can do anything/everything the little .444 can do, with less fuss and bother, and without raising a sweat.. Especially when chambered in a modern version of the venerable '86..

[Blaine]

It's hard to split hairs when ya talk "perfectly fine", and "better than perfectly fine". It's an old cliché, but, how did those poor folks ever feed themselves with a 44-40, or 45 Colt? Part of that answer is Cover and Concealment.

[Buck Elliott]

As for mounting a scope on the .444 for the outlined application, I would seriously suggest no more than 1.5 power, with as straight a tube as possible.. Your eye can only make use of a 5mm exit pupil.. No need to lug around more weight or bulk than necessary.. The most important advantage of a scope, especially for older eyes, is to put target and sight system in the same focal plane..

Best of luck on your moose/mouse and bear hunt !!

[Buck Elliott]

It's hard to split hairs when ya talk "perfectly fine", and "better than perfectly fine". It's an old cliché, but, how did those poor folks ever feed themselves with a 44-40, or 45 Colt? Part of that answer is Cover and Concealment.

Blaine, Blaine... We all know how much easier game was to track and kill, before the animals discovered all the new stealth gadgetry, and enhanced optical devices they seem to be using these days.. I wonder too, if they have figured out a version of deer-hide camo Kevlar, to turn away hunters' bullets...

Sadly, "hunting" as we once understood it has become a lost art.. Remember the phrase, "Get as close as absolutely possible, then get a bit closer.."

[Buck Elliott]

There ya go Gordon... A whole page of "expert" advice, much of which has no bearing on your situation or original question... That's the way things work around here.. Hope you aren't too-thoroughly confused..

Welcome to the Fire..!

[Blaine]

There ya go Gordon... A whole page of "expert" advice, much of which has no bearing on your situation or original question... That's the way things work around here.. Hope you aren't too-thoroughly confused..

Welcome to the Fire..!

Disclaimer: I'm no expert. "Blaine" is an old NA term that means "Stumbling Lion Can't Hunt"

[Buck Elliott]

There ya go Gordon... A whole page of "expert" advice, much of which has no bearing on your situation or original question... That's the way things work around here.. Hope you aren't too-thoroughly confused..

Welcome to the Fire..!

Disclaimer: I'm no expert. "Blaine" is an old NA term that means "Stumbling Lion Can't Hunt"

[jeepnik]

There ya go Gordon... A whole page of "expert" advice, much of which has no bearing on your situation or original question... That's the way things work around here.. Hope you aren't too-thoroughly confused..

Welcome to the Fire..!

Disclaimer: I'm no expert. "Blaine" is an old NA term that means "Stumbling Lion Can't Hunt"

Yes, but in old NC (Native Canadian) it means "He Who Blows Big Horn".

[Old Time Hunter]

Here is why the .444 is better than the .45-70...

Because the Winchester 94 Timber Carbine is chambered for it!

Let the fun begin....

[Buck Elliott]

Here is why the .444 is better than the .45-70...

Because the Winchester 94 Timber Carbine is chambered for it!

Let the fun begin....

That is about the Least-credible reason I have seen to date.. Lol

[Canuck Bob]

Really getting foolish guys. The man owns a 444 already and asked for experience with the the 444 and moose. The 444 is a dandy moose cartridge in one of the best hunting rifle ever designed. I have killed a few with it up to 175 yards, see my thread above. Many folks have used and recommend it on dedicated forums. The local Rangers used it for Grizzly control and the ammo Gordon suggested is a good large game choice. I visited their site and would use either choice of ammo published. They report outstanding velocity from 18" barrels. The 300 grainer seems like dandy DG load but the 280 will do the job for sure and probably my choice. We can't get Corbon here.

Gordon, folks like to debate endlessly about the 45-70 over the the 444 like folks argue over the 30-30 as a poor deer cartridge. It is gun nut banter but lets get real. A stout bullet over 40 cal and approaching 300 grains or better at 2200 fps is an outstanding moose cartridge. If you had asked about a 348 or 405 Winchester the outcome would be much different even though the 444 is in the same range in a larger caliber. For some reason Winchester cartridges work better than Marlin cartridges.

In my experience the 444 is much better than a 30 cal like 303 or 30-06 and my non-magnu choice would be 35 cal or better for moose and big bear. If you shoot past 200 yards pick something else but why would you treat a moose like a gopher? I've carried a 444 for 35 years, I lied make that over 40 years (just stopped doing the math around age questions), in northern Ontario, northern Saskatchewan, all of Alberta including grizzly country, and in the North West Territories almost always as an unguided solo resident hunter. The 444 with that Corbon ammo you asked about sighted to 150 yards in a gun you already own and have used is the correct choice for you in my experience. It is always good sense to carry a rifle you are familiar with when the need to shoot seriously happens. My uncle used a battered old Lee Enfield and Dominion ammo and had a barn wall full of antlers. He considered my 444 a foolish cannon in a fun but honest way! Most of my Cree family used 30-30s and fed villages.

I am a gun nut but we do get a bit carried away sometimes.

You will be well armed with a 444 and be carrying one of the finest hunting rifles designed for actual North American hunters and by North American designers when folks hunted in a more traditional way. Those folks knew what they were doing. Millions and millions of lever actions sold says it all.

[tman]

Some good points here. The 444 out to 200 yards will handle all North American game. A 1894 .444 winchester BigBore is handier and lighter than anything chambered in the 45-70. The .444 is close, if not equal to the .405 Winchester, which was considered an African game getter in the early 20th Century. The Bigbore gives you 7 fast shots. Finally, dead is dead is dead. A cruise missle will take out a brown bear, so will the .444 Marlin.

[AJMD429]

If you had asked about a 348 or 405 Winchester the outcome would be much different even though the 444 is in the same range in a larger caliber. For some reason Winchester cartridges work better than Marlin cartridges.

I've noticed that, too; must be the extra letters, or maybe since 'Marlin' has an 'M', there's not one left over for any 'Mojo'. . .

It would be interesting to neck down the 45-70 to 0.430" and use 400 grain bullets...

[Canuck Bob]

If you had asked about a 348 or 405 Winchester the outcome would be much different even though the 444 is in the same range in a larger caliber. For some reason Winchester cartridges work better than Marlin cartridges.

I've noticed that, too; must be the extra letters, or maybe since 'Marlin' has an 'M', there's not one left over for any 'Mojo'. . .

It would be interesting to neck down the 45-70 to 0.430" and use 400 grain bullets...

Now that would be some wildcat worth a look!! How about a 444 necked to a 40 cal? 44-75 or 40-444 are kinda catchy. A 400 grain 44-75 would be a stout slick feeding cartridge with the magic .300+ SD favored for many DG bullets. A 240 grain XTP would be darn near a varmint load for big varmints.

I'm a 444 fan but it does have one drawback. A leveraction cartridge should have a slight shoulder. When I look at an early shouldered and tapered rimmed case design like a 44-40, 30-30, 303 they look like you could toss the cartridge in the general direction of the chamber and it would slide right in. It was a life saving feature of the Lee Enfield in the trenches.

[Old Time Hunter]

Here is why the .444 is better than the .45-70...

Because the Winchester 94 Timber Carbine is chambered for it!

Let the fun begin....

That is about the Least-credible reason I have seen to date.. Lol

Come on now Buck, you gotta admit the Timber Carbine is a much sweeter set up than the Marlin...also, doesn't quicker twist rate count for anything? The '94 Black Shadow @ 1-12????

[7.62 Precision]

I'm a 444 fan but it does have one drawback. A leveraction cartridge should have a slight shoulder. When I look at an early shouldered and tapered rimmed case design like a 44-40, 30-30, 303 they look like you could toss the cartridge in the general direction of the chamber and it would slide right in. It was a life saving feature of the Lee Enfield in the trenches.

Yeah, the .348 Winchester cartridges just climb into the chamber on their own when the action of a Winchester 71 is thrown open. You can fee. the difference between the necked cartridges and the tapered cartridges and between both of those and the straight-walled cartridges in leverguns.

[Canuck Bob]

I noticed a difference when I got a 32 Special and a 32-20, slick to watch them feed even in a Winchester.

I guess we are seeing the heritage of black powder in these case shapes. Anything to enhance feeding and chambering in the days of fouling. I make jokes about being partial to rimmed cases but I really am partial to them. My Lee Enfield is an eyeopener when one compares fired shoulder location and SAMMI location from current factory ammo. My 32-20 in a Winoku chamber is the same but to no where the same as some pictures I've seen of other 32-20 chambers.

[t.r.]

My brother-in-law bought a 444 to hunt bison at Twin Pines Ranch, Wyoming. He paid a professional smith to load ammo featuring the 300 grain Hornady XTP bullet. Ammo was expensive but done right.

He shot a good sized heifer at approx. 125 yards through the chest organs. The animal stumbled but did not drop. He fired again and the buffalo toppled. Both bullets were recovered under the hide and they mushroomed perfectly. Good performance from a classic big game cartridge. His guide told him that he'd seen guys shoot three or four times with 30-06 rifles loaded with 220 grain core-lokt ammo. The guide does not recommend core-lokt ammo for bison.

TR